AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[flateric]

Can someone re-upload ADA AMCA video either on YouTube or as .MP4 to any file hosting?
Anyway, thanks...

 

[ironman]

AMCA- ADA Leaflet.

 

[arkem8]

 

[arkem8]

 

[Crusader53]

This looks to much like a 5th Generation Design to me. I think the ACMA needs to jump this current fighter generation and develop a 6th Generation instead.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

6Th Generation = UACV with Combination with 5.5gen Fighters..

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Few more

Photos taken By : Ayan Sengupta

 

[ersakthivel]

See there are programs where first few prototypes crashed and test pilots scurried into voluntary retirement.It is great that ADA did not do it.

people once again make the basic mistake of calculating the flight testing from the first flight of TD-1 on 2001 to 2013 ,

The ones that were built as TD-1s and TD-2s were to check the tech readiness levels of FCS , aerodynamically fully unstable design ,

It is more like the X flight s of NASA, In contrast the french had older mirages versions available for testing the FCS for fully unstable flights as a ready made platform,

But for ADA all it had was a couple of TD-1s, a loss of one would have delayed the program many more years,Then the advent of higher weight longer range BVR missiles once again changed the game for TEJAS ,

So wings needed additional strengthening to withstand the stress and load , weight increased and kaveri engine failed to match it and so on,

If we compare the EUROFIGHTER and RAFALE program time lines are similar , or compared to the F-35 program Tejas is not such a delayed program as it is made out to be,

considering all the components of even 5th gen techs like fully unstable FCS controlled fighter, highest percentage of composites,new mission computers, OBORG, and efforts at reduction of RCS all done in a single program with a shoestring outlay and handful of TDs is no laughing matter,

The experience gained will be the foundation on which the AMCA will start, still the time line is longer means the further complexities of the programs like stealth and of course the engine.

The experience of flight testing LCA can be applied to AMCA program as the flight test points are same for all aircrafts irrespective of the number of engines,

like AOA ,RCS reduction, STR, handling, aerodynamic refinements ,drag reduction,ITR, top speeds. These testing points are the same irrespective of the number of engines.

There are programs where after the crash of the first prototypes developers ran to the US company to sort out the FCS issues, and no program was hampered by sanctions as is the case with TEJAS,

Also it is better to have a smaller AMCA with less pay load and optimal range because that is where our engine tech stands , we have no program to develop matching high thrust to weight ratio engines comparable to that of PAKFA or F-22,

So it is better to have a smaller nimbler primarily air to air fighter that can defend the skies , while playing a limited ground attack role with few precision munitions than to have a large fighter and finding out that it does not have matching high thrust to weight engines.

 

[prestigiousindian]

Can someone tell me what is the Maximum take-off weight for AMCA. In wikipedia the've given as 18000Kg. How can that be possible ?? For similar F-35 empty weight 13300Kg, loaded weight 22000Kg and MTOW 31800Kg. And please if possible someone edit that wiki page.

 

[Twinblade]

I am cross posting this from the UAV/UCAV thread because this is one news that silently crept through all the discussion.

Radar absorbent structures for UAV/UCAV

The above poster represents the composite developed for RAS for AURA/AMCA by DMRSDE (Defence Materials & Stores Research & Development Establishment, Kanpur) and has achieved reflection rates of -15 to -20dB in the X band. Should this material be further developed to be qualified for usage as aircraft skin, it would represent a massive advantage over traditional RAMs as it would be significantly less maintenance intensive and it would require a serious deformation of the panels to distort the RCS of the aircraft. In the event of minor damage sustained to the panels, such material would allow changing of panels in the field because application of maintenance intensive RAM paint would be unnecessary.

 

[p2prada]

This looks to much like a 5th Generation Design to me. I think the ACMA needs to jump this current fighter generation and develop a 6th Generation instead.

Nobody is capable of making one today.

We are still 20 years away from developing a proper 6th gen prototype.

Can someone tell me what is the Maximum take-off weight for AMCA. In wikipedia the've given as 18000Kg. How can that be possible ?? For similar F-35 empty weight 13300Kg, loaded weight 22000Kg and MTOW 31800Kg. And please if possible someone edit that wiki page.

Yeah, it is expected to be 18 tonnes. Possibly around 20 tonnes with weight gains or improvements.

Maybe empty weight 8-9 tonnes, loaded weight 14-16 tonnes, MTOW 18-20 tonnes.

F-35 is of a different weight class, F-15 / Su-27 class. Specifically, in the SH weight class. AMCA is in the F-16 B60 / Rafale class.

The above poster represents the composite developed for RAS for AURA/AMCA by DMRSDE (Defence Materials & Stores Research & Development Establishment, Kanpur) and has achieved reflection rates of -15 to -20dB in the X band. Should this material be further developed to be qualified for usage as aircraft skin, it would represent a massive advantage over traditional RAMs as it would be significantly less maintenance intensive and it would require a serious deformation of the panels to distort the RCS of the aircraft. In the event of minor damage sustained to the panels, such material would allow changing of panels in the field because application of maintenance intensive RAM paint would be unnecessary.

Apart from technological hurdles, it can even end up being financially unfeasible.Awesome if it works, though.

The F-35 has something similar based on a honeycomb structure.

 

[Rahul Singh]

This looks to much like a 5th Generation Design to me. I think the ACMA needs to jump this current fighter generation and develop a 6th Generation instead.

From my understanding term 'fourth generation fighter remained in use for last three decades and continuing well into fourth despite numerous changes. So i wonder what could possibly differ between fifth generation fighter and sixth generation fighters apart from natural technological progression? And if that's the case then why award numerical successor to it, why not again follow X.5++ designation code like earlier?

IMO Sixth Generation designation will be used for Multi-Role Fully-Autonomous* Unmanned Combat Air Vehicles.

* let it stand for what it would and could mean.

 

[Rahul Singh]

AERO INDIA: Advanced medium combat aircraft first flight likely in 2020

IMO this is a well calculated timeline for following reasons:-

a) AMCA is still a concept, net yet sold to any. IAF is yet to firmly commit to it and IN is still not aboard.

b) ADA needs to do lot of scale model testing to reach to a design which can be sold to IAF, in other words meet (estimated) stringent IAF requirements (super stealth with super maneuverability............. you bet).

c) Engine is yet to be selected and they themselves have conveyed that there is no plan B. So not until something concrete proceeds on Kaveri front that they can freeze design. One shall only hope, someone joins with GTRE for development of 75/110 KN class engine.

d) ADA has no manufacturing facility and HAL will be pre-occupied with PMFA for good length of this decade. Without HAL support or manufacturing support AMCA can not move even an inch, not unless some private agency helps out or HAL decides to be generous (unlike last time) and shares its workforce from its own project.

e) Unlike earlier, in case of LCA, they now not need to prove what they capable of in terms of sub-systems. So they can wait with confidence. I guess, they will first develop MK-1 versions of all that required technologies and sub-systems and test aboard LCA (might even apply some over LCA MK-2, guessing RAM) followed by development of Mk-2 version for application over AMCA.

 

[halloweene]

Carbon/kevlar dielectric sandwich RAM coatings are not used for fighters due to heat problems.
According to last issue of Air&Cosmos, DRDO negated negociations with SNECMA to develop kaveri to be over. In fact, they (snecma) may even be involved in a ten ton class design.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Hopefully, they will test its applicability over LCA Mk-2....................... My jingo heart jumped to roof after reading "Status: Technology for RAM composite has been developed".

This is what happens when you complete non glamorous job of reinventing wheel (for which highly criticized by ignoramuses)..... When DRDO started LCA, nobody was confident of it even producing aviation grade aluminium let alone carbon composites but what followed next is a story to tell. Cut aside poor project management (that said, except few, there were not really many options) and LCA project is a symbol of technological marvel for a country which had had what in 80s we all know.

 

[WMD]

For now, however, the AMCA is a well-defined programme that looks to deliver tangible results in terms of a credible, potent combat aircraft platform on the lines of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning-II. It makes sense, therefore, for the Indian military-industrial complex to develop evolutionary technologies that will find place both on manned and unmanned platforms. On the AMCA, Indian scientists are looking to push the envelope further than they have ever tried to before. Every little bit makes a difference when a legacy leap is at play, which is why, from engine performance parameters to control surfaces to control laws to cockpit ergonomics, everything is up for change.

The obvious evolutions are clear: low-observable shape and airframe materials, extensive use of carbon composites, internal weapons bays, low bypass low-emission engines, modular internals, etc. The deeper you go, the more complicated and revolutionary the plans actually become.

If AMCA Project Director Dr Ghosh meets his objectives, then one of the most compelling aspects of the AMCA will be its cockpit and man-machine interface. To begin with, unlike the decidedly crowded, fourthgeneration cockpit of the LCA Tejas, the AMCA cockpit is being developed with a panoramic active-matrix display, of the kind available on American fifth-generation aircraft. Switches, bezels and keypads stand to be replaced with touch screen interfaces and voice commands. What Dr Ghosh's team wants is for the future IAF pilot to have a helmet-mounted display system that allows the dispensing of a head-up display (HUD) from the cockpit altogether, a revolutionary concept. The Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADA), which oversees the AMCA programme, has asked private industry in the country to explore the feasibility of creating primary panoramic displays and other avionics displays that would befit a fifth-generation cockpit environment. The cockpit, however, is simply one of what is a hugely ambitious technology wishlist that Dr Ghosh and his team are pinning their hopes on for the aircraft they ultimately produce.

The proposed evolutions begin at the lowest level – system architecture – and will attempt to build a triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture with fibre-optic links for signal and data communications, unlike the electrical links on the Tejas platform. Significantly, unlike centralised architecture on the Tejas, the AMCA proposes to sport a distributed architecture with smart sub-systems. Likewise, unlike the LCA's centralised digital flight control computer (DFCC), the AMCA is likely to have a distributed system with smart remote units for data communication with sensors and actuators, a system that will almost definitely require much faster on-board processors.

Sensors will be a proving ground for just how advanced the AMCA programme is, and will be in reality a test case for future applications on unmanned vehicles. Scientists will be working towards getting the mechanical gyros and accelerometers, standard on the Tejas, to evolve on the AMCA into fibre-optic gyros, ring laser gyros and MEMS gyros. The pressure probes and vanes that make up the air-data sensors will become an optical and flush air data system, and position sensors will be linear/rotary optical encoders. Importantly, actuators – currently electro-hydraulic/direct drive – could be electro-hydrostatic to accrue substantive weight savings on the AMCA. Sensor fusion for an overarching situation picture is something the ADA is already attempting to achieve on the Tejas suite, so one the AMCA it should be a standard requirement.

One of the key areas that India has lagged behind on is control laws. The AMCA should feature highly evolved integrated control laws for flight, propulsion, braking, nose wheel steer and fuel management and adaptive neural networks for fault detection, identification and control law reconfiguration. All of this will cost the country much, but will find valuable applications in the unmanned programmes, particularly AURA. Unlike the Tejas, which features an avionics systems architecture based on functionality-based individual computer systems connected on MIL-STD-1553B buses and Rs. 422 links, the AMCA's avionics systems architecture, it is hoped, will feature a "central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic fibre channel by means of multiport connectivity switching modules". In such a system, functionality will be mapped on resources optimally and reallocated when faults occur. Data communications on the AMCA's processing modules will be through a high-speed fibre channel bus, IEEE-1394BSTD. The connectivities will be switched by means of a multiport switching matrix, with data speeds of 400 MB/second. In literature made available on the programme, these facets reveal the stunning leap scientists are looking to make with this one manned aircraft programme.

The AMCA is almost certain to have integrated radio naviation systems, where all burdens earlier borne by analogue circuits will be carried out by digital processors. Communication systems will be based on software radio ranging from UHF to K band, with data links for digital data/voice data and video. One of the most exciting new area being exploited for the AMCA is algorithms. While the LCA suite no major decision aid to the pilot, the AMCA commander will have the ability to plan attack strategies, avoidance tactics, retreat strategies and evasive strategies for himself and his partners in the air. Each of these technologies, planned in a manned environment are being evolved and developed for extension to an autonomous unmanned environment as well. Critics would argue that the establishment needs to focus on finishing what it has started before dreaming big. Others would say, it's better to think big now, than face repeated obsolescence even before your bird flies.

But these are early days, months and years yet. There is a mountain of work to be done, with little time and even less money. The only way, hopefully, is up.

The IAF s Generation Dream - SP's Aviation

 

[Rahul Singh]

Aero India is the one of the finest air shows in the world: Major | Removing old mindset key for IAF

Former IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal (retd) Fali Major, at his residence near Devanahalli. Photo | M Jitendra

By Anantha Krishnan M
Express News Service

Bangalore: Former Chief of Air Staff Air Chief Marshal (retd) Fali Major is excited that in the next couple of days, he will be meeting all his friends, ex-colleagues and the best plane people from all around the world. Away from the chaos of Bangalore city, the former chief of Indian Air Force (IAF) is now settled near Devanahalli. City Express caught up with Major on the eve of Aero India-2013, to read the mind of a man who has been there, done that. Excerpts:

On Aero India: It has become one of the finest air shows in the world. We are somewhere very close to Farnborough, with more business and more exhibits. But, to me the most sought-after shows were during 2007, 2009 and 2011. I am not sure what kind of business activities will take place during this time. The deals are done. But, the Indian aviation industry has a huge opportunity, thanks to the offset contracts it will have with the OEMs. This is the time we will have to support the MSMEs and SMEs. The organizers must encourage small-time players to exhibit the products. They should be given an opportunity. There is huge talent out there with Bangalore being the hub of aerospace.

On two air shows: I feel we should take a re-look at having two air shows. Why should we have one for civil aviation in Hyderabad and then for military in Bangalore? No country has two air shows – be it in Farnborough, Dubai or Singapore. Can you tell me which country has two air shows? If we make these shows together, then we will able to synergize our energies in a better way. It will also give an opportunity for people to see the advancements in ATC, airport services and ground-handling. I also feel that the air show should be the job of the India government and not just one department or organization.

On Surya Kirans: I will certainly miss the SKAT (Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team) at the show, like anyone else. This team has definitely gifted a great brand image to the Indian Air Force. I hope by 2015, during the next air show, we will have a new aerobatic team.

On Sarangs: Ideally the formation chopper team should have a light helicopter. May be the Light Utility Helicopters we are getting now, should be tried out. When the Light Combat Helicopter matures, maybe we can try it too for aerobatic display. But, I am taking nothing away from the Sarangs. They are a fine unit.
The best air show: To me, the most unforgettable air show was in 2007. We had almost close to 20 Air Chiefs of various countries participating for the first time. I was the Chief-designate then. It was one of the finest moments for me as all of them were very impressed with the show. The most-sought-after shows were in 2007, 2009 and 2011. The IAF modernization had reached its zenith during these shows.

On IAF modernization: The IAF, more or less got everything, it had asked for, except the LCAs, IJTs, Dhruvs and the like. The latest addition of IAF assets, including the modern fighters, transport planes, helicopters and trainers, will take care of the needs of the IAF for the next 30 years. May be the weapons and air-defence systems, upgrades are still pending. The IAF modernization was probably one of the most planned ones. We had a long term plan for IAF. Today, the challenge for IAF is to manage old and new systems (flying machines). You will have to change the mindset and it is happening. Removing old mindset will take time.

On LCA-Tejas: There will be delays, if two separate agencies (HAL and ADA) with different philosophies are working on one programme. I am looking forward to Tejas Mk-II with new engine.

On Dhruv & LCH: Dhruv is a great chopper in its own class. But, the biggest problem of Dhruv is its product support. Let's wait and see what LCH will eventually look like, with its weapon systems.

On Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT): If we get sufficient quantities of Pilatus trainer and Hawks, then I think we will not have space for anything else. But, if HAL can deliver the IJTs, matching the specifications of IAF, then it will be a different story.

On HAL: I feel, HAL should have a dedicated R&D unit. Tell me one major aerospace industry in the world which doesn't have a robust R&D department. The R&D wing of HAL should have highly-qualified people from various disciplines, especially aerospace designers and engineers.

On Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA): With the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in pipeline, the need for AMCA is debatable.

Ok, then why buy Rafale when IAF can easily and speedily procure 126 plus Sukhoi Super 30s and upgrade entire SU-30 MKIs fleet to Super 30 standard? Is it debatable too?

 

[p2prada]

Ok, then why buy Rafale when IAF can easily and speedily procure 126 plus Sukhoi Super 30s and upgrade entire SU-30 MKIs fleet to Super 30 standard? Is it debatable too?

You can't have a one dimensional view point about it.

He may be thinking of our own development or a partnership at something better than what PMF offers, rather than a copy paste of PMF/F-35 in the AMCA.

I have a mixed feeling for AMCA, if you consider the timeline for its induction. The Chinese are already flying a AMCA equivalent today while we plan to do the same possibly after the Chinese aircraft is inducted. Even the Americans will have their F-35 in strength by then.

So, we can actually give it a few more years and actually try and develop an aircraft between 5th and 6th gen. Perhaps an optionally manned aircraft. Instead of aiming for 5th gen AMCA by 2030, we can aim for a near 6th gen AMCA in the 2035-40 period with first flight sometime in 2025.

That way we won't merely have "another" 5th gen aircraft, rather set new benchmarks. We will have an economy to match it, too. Even the Navy will want in on an aircraft that can stay in the air for 40 or 50 hours in a single sortie. A first flight in 2025 will allow GTRE to catch up with the rest of the world in engine technology. Perhaps the most important factor at play here.

We can do this with the French or the Russians. Heck maybe even the Israelis as they believe the F-35s stealthiness will be useless in 10 years. We can also opt to go it alone while working on 6th gen technologies on our other UCAV programs over the next 15 years before it matures enough for use on AMCA.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

In that sense, We are getting MIG-29 UPG then why to have Rafale ?

AMCA & PMF are medium and heavy combination..

Ok, then why buy Rafale when IAF can easily and speedily procure 126 plus Sukhoi Super 30s and upgrade entire SU-30 MKIs fleet to Super 30 standard? Is it debatable too?

 

[Rahul Singh]

^^^ That's why i questioned ex ACM's words.

@ P2P:

See we already have USAV project up and running, so i guess if ex ACM had any such intention he could have said "With the USAV in pipeline, the need for AMCA is debatable".

To me it would have made more sense (with regard to your conclusion/assessment) because AMCA is being developed primarily for strike missions/requirements and USAV is being developed specifically for strike requirements.