AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Decklander]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

I remember a very recent article from a retd ACM. He had pointed out something quite relevant there.

He said that we already have the FGFA project and we should instead focus on later generation technologies for AMCA instead of building "another" 5th gen aircraft.

Also, I am sure you yourself said that 4th and 5th gen won't matter 15-20 years from now. That's around the time AMCA is set to be inducted. If threat perception changes so dramatically, then I don't see the relevance of even FGFA, let alone AMCA.

If the intent is really what you have stated, I am for it. But the truth is far from it bro.

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Retired ACMs who shoot their mouth like this don't know what is going to be the situation a decade later. They don't have the technical expertise to know how the detection techs will evolve in future .FGFA itself does not have F-22 equivalent stealth.

the AMCA which is going to come with indigenous engine will have less than a third of total lifecycle cost compared to any imported fighter. that means IAF can field 3 times more number of fighters for the same cost with much better stealth specs.Asking ADA to work on 6th gens even without delivering the 5th gen is setting it on a wild goose chase so that IAF will be forced to import a massive number of foreign fighter.

Just seeing a concept of 6th gen fighter from boeing and saying that ADA should be asked to design a 6th gen fighter instead of AMCA(whose ASR was finalized by IAF after a decade of R&D!!!) shows the dangerous ineptitude of top brass of IAF which has no grounding in reality. i shudder to think what would have happened if the retired ACM is allowed to have a say in monumentally important national projects like the AMCA.

By the same token we can also say the RAFALE which has no stealth 5th gen specs does not worth the 20 billion dollars to be spent on it. Will the retired ACM also say so openly discrediting the IAF's most ambitious fighter purchase in decades?So why people are shooting their mouth when it comes to indigenous projects?

What is the view of the retired ACM about inducting a fighter called FGFA , two decades after the F-22 first flight, with ten times more RCS than the F-22 and exposed engine blades for the opposing intrusive , massively improving ASEAS radar of the future?

No one in IAF has opened his mouth about such crucial issue. Surely the J-31 which has the exact copy of F-22 frontal scheme without canards of the J-20 is going to be much more stealthy than the FGFA. Won't it affect IAF FGFA fleet in future wars with china?if a fleet of FGFAs face off with PLAF J-31 fleet who will see first and shoot first based on RCS criteria? certainly the J-31s not the FGFA. IAF to this day has never asked this uncomfortable question to Sukhoi design team.

Why don't the raging retired ACMs(and the others who take joyrides on grippen NG demo, while denigrating tejas on IOC day as Mig-21++) raise such issues openly?What holds them back? No amount of work done by HAL for the FGFA version of IAF is going to change this physical fact.

Did the Sukhoi revealed to the IAF before taking indian taxpayer money that FGFA will have ten times more frontal RCS than F-22 and got IAF's approval for such a scheme of things? or IAF was kept in the dark on this subject?

Was the IAF not aware that J-31 has much better frontal RCS specs than FGFA beforehand? or Are they know aware of it atleast today?What are they going to do about it? Will they ask Sukhoi team to deliver a better product than the newbie chinese J-31 or Are they going to keep a stony silence as usual?is it impossible for them to ask? Is it impossible for the Sukhoi team to deliver?

Why don't retired ACMs speak up?

In my opinion the best bet to take on the PLAF J-31 fleet is going to be AMCA and not the FGFA on frontal stealth aspect alone.

Sure the AMCA is going to better the FGFA in stealth spec atleast. So what is the retired ACM going to say about that?

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Without debating crucial issues like these , retired ACms are knowingly or unknowingly letting their statements to be interpreted in a way that can be used to scuttle local AMCA and pave way for increasing number of much worser stealth spec FGFAs in IAF.

 

[tramp]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Without debating crucial issues like these , retired ACms are knowingly or unknowingly letting their statements to be interpreted in a way that can be used to scuttle local AMCA and pave way for increasing number of much worser stealth spec FGFAs in IAF.

No clues as to why such stories are planted required when one considers that most of the arms dealers' contact to the MoD is through retired service personnel.

 

[NDY JATT]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

This is the Policy after some time one more scam .....................
They are making polices for own retirement plane.....

It seems the game has started to increase the order book of FGFA and kill AMCA project or to order more SU-30MKIs.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

If the intent is really what you have stated, I am for it.

Which one, AMCA not required or FGFA not required?

But the truth is far from it bro.

Are you referring to a first generation of entirely new aircraft or are you referring to the obsolescence of stealth in the next 2 decades?

Meaning new hypersonic aircraft or the radar clutter rejection threshold is reduced to a value below a "mosquito," more or less? I suppose both would make today's stealth aircraft obsolete. Or something else that's not mentioned here.

I won't push it, if you can't talk about it.

Would really like clarification here.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

AMCA is a good addition to Rafale in future perhaps a replacement, Where as FGFA is what will take place of SU-30MKI ..

It is immature now for anyone to pass comment now about AMCA technology, As Aircraft do not pass from One Gen to another by a single leap, Rather in stages..

AMCA is now projected as 5th Gen, As time goes it will be updated as 5.5 to 6 th generation...

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

AMCA = Medium
FGFA = Heavy
Tejas MK2 = Light

^^ IAF way..

 

[Decklander]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Which one, AMCA not required or FGFA not required?



Are you referring to a first generation of entirely new aircraft or are you referring to the obsolescence of stealth in the next 2 decades?

Meaning new hypersonic aircraft or the radar clutter rejection threshold is reduced to a value below a "mosquito," more or less? I suppose both would make today's stealth aircraft obsolete. Or something else that's not mentioned here.

I won't push it, if you can't talk about it.

Would really like clarification here.

IMHO, Best way fwd is to create a stealth model of LCA MK-2 and make this program replace AMCA. It will be cheaper to do so keeping in view the Rafale and Pak-Fa deals in mind. Use the money earmarked for AMCA to leapfrog to sixth Gen fighter. I see no possibility of AMCA taking off till 2020. So why not use this time for something better instead of playing catch up game with fifth gen fighters? Better will be involve domestic private industry to start work on sixth gen fighter.

 

[Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

IMHO, Best way fwd is to create a stealth model of LCA MK-2 and make this program replace AMCA. It will be cheaper to do so keeping in view the Rafale and Pak-Fa deals in mind. Use the money earmarked for AMCA to leapfrog to sixth Gen fighter. I see no possibility of AMCA taking off till 2020. So why not use this time for something better instead of playing catch up game with fifth gen fighters? Better will be involve domestic private industry to start work on sixth gen fighter.

I think there is a lot of wishful thinking here.

LCA mk2 cannot be the basis on which a sixth gen fighter be made, when its a very vfm and average 4th gen fighter.
Involving domestic private industry is an exercise in futility, we need massive technological and manufacturing reforms to pump out jet fighters.

 

[arnabmit]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

AFAIK, 6th gen is fuzzy logic AI drones attached with a manned fighter using swarm logic with independent FoF detection, target acquisition and engagement. India is many decades away from implementing such quantum computing systems. Heck, to be able to put in such a supercomputer in a fighter, we would have to first develop and miniaturize technologies like DNA computing or something like that.

True 6th gen tech is at least 5 decades away even for USA considering the required miniaturization of multi-teraflops/multi-exaflops per second computing power.

IMHO, India would be better positioned to implement scramjet/pulse-detonation jet based exo-atmospheric long range fighters and bombers instead which might take only 2 more decades to develop instead.

IMHO, Best way fwd is to create a stealth model of LCA MK-2 and make this program replace AMCA. It will be cheaper to do so keeping in view the Rafale and Pak-Fa deals in mind. Use the money earmarked for AMCA to leapfrog to sixth Gen fighter. I see no possibility of AMCA taking off till 2020. So why not use this time for something better instead of playing catch up game with fifth gen fighters? Better will be involve domestic private industry to start work on sixth gen fighter.

 

[sayareakd]

we need all we can make, LCA 2, LCA 3 (unmanned version), AMCA, unmanned stealth bomber and what else we can come up with. R&D is continuous processes, we have to invest our time and money in it, no shortcut in this area.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

IMHO, Best way fwd is to create a stealth model of LCA MK-2 and make this program replace AMCA.

Sir, let me tell you this before we continue. It is impossible to make a 5th gen version of LCA. It is simply far too small. There is no space for internal bays. If we do put them in, there won't be enough space for fuel or for avionics. The hydraulics systems for doors and other systems like hardpoints will take up all the space and add way too much to the weight.

LCA Mk2 will be a reasonably stealthy version, but if you speak to any stealth guru, we had one called Gambit who worked for the USAF, he will point out that any 4th gen aircraft designed like LCA or Rafale can "never" be a 5th gen aircraft.

You can probably reduce detection range by 50% over incremental upgrades, but that's the limit. You can't change the inlet design overnight, you can't change the engine overnight, you can't change the wings design overnight, also the vertical fin, all these matter for stealth aircraft. Also, if we combine the small size, we cannot install weapons bays, so the other parameters become moot. And if you do change some of these, the aircraft itself will become different from what it used to be. We will probably end up with a less advanced AMCA or a more advanced Rafale.

I like the way the Koreans have been proceeding with their program. They made incremental upgrades to their T-50, started out with something simple. They are building a LCA mk2 type plane now called F/A-50. A parallel program for a Rafale class aircraft to be inducted between 2020-2025, they call it KF-X. At the same time, they are importing a high end aircraft like F-15 or F-35 for air dominance missions.

It will be cheaper to do so keeping in view the Rafale and Pak-Fa deals in mind.Use the money earmarked for AMCA to leapfrog to sixth Gen fighter. I see no possibility of AMCA taking off till 2020. So why not use this time for something better instead of playing catch up game with fifth gen fighters?

I agree with this. This was the same thing the retd ACM pointed out and I agree with it too. Junk AMCA and replace it with a proper 6th gen program, even if it takes a longer time. I wonder if the establishment is thinking the same if they stopped the AMCA project.

Better will be involve domestic private industry to start work on sixth gen fighter.

I doubt they can really contribute to the R&D of the aircraft itself, but they can contribute a lot to subsystems and electronics. ADA will want to keep most of the R&D work to itself.

I believe TCS (TATA) is working with Saab on a JV for designing the new Gripen NG. They have a 100 Indian engineers working on the R&D. That's a decent start.

One place I would really like private involvement is helicopters and transport aircraft. Less complex, more profits, development gestation period is significantly smaller compared to fighters and the experience would pave way for larger projects like AEW&Cs, LRMRs, EW, bombers etc apart from making Civil airliners for our future civilian and military needs. We can't rely on Boeing and Airbus forever.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

I think there is a lot of wishful thinking here.

LCA mk2 cannot be the basis on which a sixth gen fighter be made, when its a very vfm and average 4th gen fighter.

He is not talking about a 6th gen LCA. He is talking about a 5th gen LCA. But even that is wishful thinking.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

R&D is continuous processes, we have to invest our time and money in it, no shortcut in this area.

R&D is, but you don't build capability that way. LCA has taught us the basic technologies except for the engine.

If we do catch up with engine tech, we can make even more significant jumps in technology.

Also in the aerospace industry, you need to be able to jump, or else you will be left behind in a big way.

 

[Decklander]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Sir, let me tell you this before we continue. It is impossible to make a 5th gen version of LCA. It is simply far too small. There is no space for internal bays. If we do put them in, there won't be enough space for fuel or for avionics. The hydraulics systems for doors and other systems like hardpoints will take up all the space and add way too much to the weight.

LCA Mk2 will be a reasonably stealthy version, but if you speak to any stealth guru, we had one called Gambit who worked for the USAF, he will point out that any 4th gen aircraft designed like LCA or Rafale can "never" be a 5th gen aircraft.

You can probably reduce detection range by 50% over incremental upgrades, but that's the limit. You can't change the inlet design overnight, you can't change the engine overnight, you can't change the wings design overnight, also the vertical fin, all these matter for stealth aircraft. Also, if we combine the small size, we cannot install weapons bays, so the other parameters become moot. And if you do change some of these, the aircraft itself will become different from what it used to be. We will probably end up with a less advanced AMCA or a more advanced Rafale.

I like the way the Koreans have been proceeding with their program. They made incremental upgrades to their T-50, started out with something simple. They are building a LCA mk2 type plane now called F/A-50. A parallel program for a Rafale class aircraft to be inducted between 2020-2025, they call it KF-X. At the same time, they are importing a high end aircraft like F-15 or F-35 for air dominance missions.



I agree with this. This was the same thing the retd ACM pointed out and I agree with it too. Junk AMCA and replace it with a proper 6th gen program, even if it takes a longer time. I wonder if the establishment is thinking the same if they stopped the AMCA project.



I doubt they can really contribute to the R&D of the aircraft itself, but they can contribute a lot to subsystems and electronics. ADA will want to keep most of the R&D work to itself.

I believe TCS (TATA) is working with Saab on a JV for designing the new Gripen NG. They have a 100 Indian engineers working on the R&D. That's a decent start.

One place I would really like private involvement is helicopters and transport aircraft. Less complex, more profits, development gestation period is significantly smaller compared to fighters and the experience would pave way for larger projects like AEW&Cs, LRMRs, EW, bombers etc apart from making Civil airliners for our future civilian and military needs. We can't rely on Boeing and Airbus forever.

I have created a stealth version of Ajeet and it is now undergoing CFD analysis before I move on for wind tunnel testing. Its length is just 10 meters and weighs only 3250 kgs and can carry 3x R-77s + 4x MICA internally with ease. I had sent it to HAL and they got totally lost and foxed and I do not wish to share what their views were which they expressed in the letter to me. They just do not want any one to challenge their pole position. For them this whole biz of designing aircraft is a way to safeguard their jobs and this talk of them contributing to India's defense is a big big farce.

 

[p2prada]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

I have created a stealth version of Ajeet and it is now undergoing CFD analysis before I move on for wind tunnel testing. Its length is just 10 meters and weighs only 3250 kgs and can carry 3x R-77s + 4x MICA internally with ease.

Won't such a design carry a smaller radar and other electronics apart from a smaller fuel load. If this works out this can take over after LCA Mk2. But I don't know how much more compact electronics can really be made, if you expect it to replace LCA. Perhaps it can be an alternate for AURA like UCAV instead of a manned platform. Maybe you can push it forward as a UCAV with a greater priority for air to ground capability.

Just my 2 cents.

Coming back to LCA, my point was you need to work from scratch to get a light stealth aircraft, can't convert LCA to a stealth aircraft.

I had sent it to HAL and they got totally lost and foxed and I do not wish to share what their views were which they expressed in the letter to me. They just do not want any one to challenge their pole position. For them this whole biz of designing aircraft is a way to safeguard their jobs and this talk of them contributing to India's defense is a big big farce.

Never trust a company, no matter how "Indian" it claims it is. I have been saying this since a long time.

 

[santosh_g]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

I have created a stealth version of Ajeet and it is now undergoing CFD analysis before I move on for wind tunnel testing. Its length is just 10 meters and weighs only 3250 kgs and can carry 3x R-77s + 4x MICA internally with ease. I had sent it to HAL and they got totally lost and foxed and I do not wish to share what their views were which they expressed in the letter to me. They just do not want any one to challenge their pole position. For them this whole biz of designing aircraft is a way to safeguard their jobs and this talk of them contributing to India's defense is a big big farce.

Sir, probably you can send that model to a private desi defence aviation company (even if it's beginner in aviation) so that they can build it with your co-operation.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Sir,The same can be talked about other organizations such as DRDO too, But again these people only moved when a higher force works around you, Though its really exciting thing you are doing, I wish good luck..

For them this whole biz of designing aircraft is a way to safeguard their jobs and this talk of them contributing to India's defense is a big big farce.

 

[Mariner HK]

Its better if we close this THREAD now. Its confrimed. RIP AMCA