AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

[Mariner HK]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

May be we open this thread after 2022-2025 RIP AMCA. Say Hi to Tejas MK2

 

[ersakthivel]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

IMHO, Best way fwd is to create a stealth model of LCA MK-2 and make this program replace AMCA. It will be cheaper to do so keeping in view the Rafale and Pak-Fa deals in mind. Use the money earmarked for AMCA to leapfrog to sixth Gen fighter. I see no possibility of AMCA taking off till 2020. So why not use this time for something better instead of playing catch up game with fifth gen fighters? Better will be involve domestic private industry to start work on sixth gen fighter.

But the IAF and defence import lobby is mortally afraid of the word called LCA mk-3, the reasons are not hard to fathom. What we all mean by LCA mk-3 is not a plane with just the same LCA mk-2 dimensions like , same height, width, length and weight with the addition of a second engine. What we mean by LCA mk-3 is a bigger plane with two engines and retaining the same aeroynamic configuration of the tried and tested tail less cranked delta with low wing loading of LCA with suitable incremental additions if needed.

Just take the case of LCA mk-2 it is 0.5 meter longer with heavier empty weight and bit larger wing area to arrive at the same wing loading. Every dimension of it differs from LCA mk-1 . But still it is not an entirely new plane , because even though dimensions differ a bit,it carries the same tried and tested tail less cranked delta with low wing loading aerodynamic configuration of LCA mk-1.

In the same way we can make a LCA mk-3 as a much bigger plane , retaining the same tried and tested tail less cranked delta with low wing loading wing design , with two engines ,enough space for fuels and internal bomb bay as a sure shot quick fire way of producing our own 5th gen fighter within a decade. because it need not under go 10 years of testing as almost all of it's flight charecteristics are proven by LCA mk-1 and mk-2.In fact the air inlet design of LCA is much more stealthier than the FGFA.

Since LCA is designed with the intention of reduced RCS from the start all it needs to be done is reshape the cockpit area like F-22 or J-31 for stealth with heavy ram coating. Definitely at third of FGFA price tag this LCA mk-3 will be much more stealthier than FGFA. Because the russians too adopted the similar tried and tested approach for their FGFA. FGFA shares 80 percent of Sukhoi-30 MKI aerodynamic configuration , with just a larger wing for lower wing loading of modern day deltas and a reshaped cockpit for effective frontal stealth. That's why the russians were able to create stealth optimized hyper agility platform so quickly and reliably.

But the IAF is forcing ADA to totslly abandon all the design effort of LCA by going in for an entirely new configuration , where the need of the hour is to quickly fill up the rank of IAF with reliable 5th gen cost effective fighters. Even USAF is willing to go with much inferior F-35(compared to F-22) as a cost effective way for converting itself to 5th gen fighter force. But IAF does not seem to understand this logic.

As the nose cone of LCA too can be widened to house a bigger radar it's fuselage too can be widened and lengthened to cater to fuel for more range and internal bomb bay.All these are not going to affect it's aerodynamic config if wings are suitably widened.It may be entirely new plane but since it is going to have the same aerodynamic loadout as LCA it can be reliably made and tested with very low budget. We can even put the( after the flight certification) present K-9 as a test flight engine and make it 100 percent homegrown effort.later we can replace the K-9 with k-10 when it's development is finished.


Just look at the chinese their J-20 and J-31 differs in size but retain the same frontal design and so many other design attributes, So both of them were easily developed side by side avoiding the needless duplication of R& D effort. That's why China is about to field two variants of home grown 5th gen fighters, which can't be matched even by the Russians. But IAF stubbornly refuses to adopt such radical thinking to avoid the mismatch in 5th gen fighter capacities with PLAF. The reasons are not hard to seek.

This what V.K.saraswath of DRDO is suggesting and IAF and MOD is silent about. AMCA should be taken up as a separate project , but if we have to match the chinese in number for number game in 5th gen fighter LCA mk-3 with a bigger physical dimension and same flight charecteristics is the best possible bet.

But sadly this idea is quietly burried because it will shut the flood gates of massive 5th gen fighter import for IAF.

 

[ersakthivel]

As of now there is no such thing called any 6th gen plane. other than an illustration by Boeing , nothing exists. Asking ADA to chase this wild goose is stupid thing.how is ADA supposed to create something yet to be created by Boeing??. AMCA project must be pursued earnestly . It is the only real fully stealth compliant 5th gen fighter that has the possibility of entering into service in 2030 besides the 150 odd FGFAs,

But delays should be expected in a fighter project of this complexity. As a back up we should go for LCA mk-3 with twin engines and bigger dimensions that can be operationalized in a decade like the LCA mk-2 to counter the PLAAF J-20 and J-31, No other options are present on the table for IAF.FGFA will be a limited numbers addition in IAF fleet.A fully indigenous fighter like LCA mk-3 will quickly swell the IAF rank with 5th gen fighters complimenting the FGFA in indian skies for the defence of the nation, like RAFLE is going to complement Su-30 MKI.

Junking AMCA for a fantasy fighter called 6th gen that too after 10 years of ASR finalization!!!! by IAF is stupid.It is same as asking IA to junk the ARJUN mk-3 for a fantasy flying horse called 55 ton four men crew FMBT. IAf will take more than two decades to finalize specs for 6th gen fighter(because then only glossy brochures from janes defense weekly will arrive). And even GOd cannot save this country then!!!!

 

[santosh_g]

It's clear that IAF dont want a homegrown bird in their fleet.. their actions are indicating this only.. One can recognize this by just looking at number of MK-1's they ordered and MK-2 they will be going to order.. Every best aircraft in the history didn't become best in over night. They undergone many upgrades , many changes which made them successful. I donno when IAF will realize this fact. Forcing HAL/ADA to make design which will meet all design specifications in Prototype itself and if they didn't meet them , then making statements that this design has many flaws blablabla is not at all correct. IAF should let it fly in their squadrons and should ask for constant upgrades which will improve efficiency of both aircraft and HAL/ADA. They are doing same with sukhoi , dassault and why cant they do it with HAL/ADA?? They are upgrading age old Mig-21 and Mirage 2000 fleet of theirs with millions of dollors and they are not ready to spend some amount in TEJAS/AMCA ..

 

[Rahul Singh]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

I remember a very recent article from a retd ACM. He had pointed out something quite relevant there.

He said that we already have the FGFA project and we should instead focus on later generation technologies for AMCA instead of building "another" 5th gen aircraft.

Also, I am sure you yourself said that 4th and 5th gen won't matter 15-20 years from now. That's around the time AMCA is set to be inducted. If threat perception changes so dramatically, then I don't see the relevance of even FGFA, let alone AMCA.

And same ACM was part of the team which provided logic for M-MRCA induction. How contradictory!

 

[U Sun Dar]

Any new updates about AMCA...op:

 

[arnabmit]

Yes... it has been put on hold till ejas MK1, MK2 & NLCA is finished being developed.

Any new updates about AMCA...op:

 

[ersakthivel]

Yes... it has been put on hold till ejas MK1, MK2 & NLCA is finished being developed.

the most important point is the article quotes" unnamed senior defence ministry officials".

So unless official press release to the effect is released , We cannot be sure that AMCA is grounded.

Because the design effort on AMCA right now only involves few people, because it is in initial design phase.

Becuase only last week CNN-IBN reported in a highly dubious article quoting the same " unnamed senior officials". ,

that Tejas cannot fly without ground support and it is deficient in 100s of technical parameters, which was found out to be untrue.

 

[Rahul Singh]

Even if this article is to be believed for one moment i don't see grounding AMCA actually matters as following are which actually makes AMCA

A. Fifth gen class avionics, electronics and sensors for LCA MK-2
B. New higher thrust engine.
C. Stealth in wholesome packedge for AURA.

So even if AMCA is grounded for sometime it doesn't really matter because work for is continuing in fractions anyway. Also detailed design of AMCA may not be yet be ready but it won't be outrageous to say it's pretty close, considering AMCA is worked upon at ADA on its own budget since quite sometime.

 

[ersakthivel]

Tejas grounds Medium Combat Aircraft project - The New Indian Express

The AMCA project, for which the IAF provided the final Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be taken up at a later date, sources said. But that will still be far away in the future.

India will buy Rafale planes from the French Dassault Aviation as part of its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA); in the tender there is a provision to buy another 63 as a follow-on order. That apart, India is working on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in collaboration with Russia. With the final agreement on the design and development of the FGFA three months away, India will get at least 140 FGFAs for induction by 2027. Considering that most of the capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources said.

Why I am doubting this article is it has some very inconvenient statements,

But that will still be far away in the future.

1.Means it is postponed indefenetly,How can a project for which funding is released after hectic rounds of consultation can be put off far away into future?

Considering that most of the capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources said.

2.AMCA will be significantly more stealthier than the FGFA which has poor stealth specs like exposed engine blades covered by radar blockers , which is a 1980s design concept and will have a far larger RCS than the AMCA,

Only after knowing about these home truths of the hastily put together FGFA whose primary aim is to serve the Russian export sales to third world market and not aimed at achieving the same stealth as F-22, the IAF changed the ASR of the AMCA to be more 100 percent stealth from the lesser stealth design prepared earlier by ADA.

Infact it is yet to be known whethe the FGFA will have a lesser RCS than the J-20 or not. SO AMCA is not an esoteric theory prject to be pursued in leissure time , I suppose. IAF and Indian NAvy depends upon the timely arrival of the AMCA to have any hope of matching the chinese.

Because the chinese can produce a large number of j-20s, because it is produced in home. But being a hugely expensive multi million dollar price tag carrying import FGFA numbers in IAf can never match the j-20 therby cementing IAF's inferior force structure forever.

3. Also it is like asking your 4th std studying son to sit at home because your 12 th standard studying elder son is not scoring high marks.

4. Already the AMCA ASR spent ten years in the IAF HQ before arriving at the ADA table.(The chinese would have built the entire J-20 in ten years for the comparison) and , if the project is postponed far off in the future the the revised ASR for AMCA will need another decade in the air conditioned IAF office to mature!!!.

So the news report seems like some sort of planted paid news , so typical of DDM.

 

[U Sun Dar]

Yes... it has been put on hold till ejas MK1, MK2 & NLCA is finished being developed.

So, It will take four more years ....i don't think Tejas mk2 first flighttake off before 2015...

 

[p2prada]

AMCA may very well have been grounded because of the indecision on the new engine.

Without a new engine our aerospace future is bleak.

 

[ersakthivel]

AMCA is grounded only in the minds of some DDM reporters who don't have enough credibility to even name the official.

It can do with whatever engine available during it's developmental flight program and ten years is more than enough time to develop any kick ass engine , it needs.

With which original next gen engines the J-20 and J-31 are flying now ? Two decades old Russian ones.

Strange people make very different rules for AMCA.

 

[Armand2REP]

IAF will just buy more Rafale to replace the doomed AMCA. Numbers will probably exceed MKI.

 

[p2prada]

IAF will just buy more Rafale to replace the doomed AMCA. Numbers will probably exceed MKI.

It is yet unknown how long the delay is for. We don't know if the delay is until LCA Mk1 achieves FOC or LCA Mk2 achieved either IOC or FOC. So it depends on either of these dates.

 

[Armand2REP]

It is yet unknown how long the delay is for. We don't know if the delay is until LCA Mk1 achieves FOC or LCA Mk2 achieved either IOC or FOC. So it depends on either of these dates.

It takes 30 years for a failed ADA project and still no results, who has 50 years to wait for AMCA? Rafale is the clear winner here.

 

[Patriot]

IAF will just buy more Rafale to replace the doomed AMCA. Numbers will probably exceed MKI.

Greed has no bounds. It can make people talk & do meanest nonsense.

 

[Patriot]

It takes 30 years for a failed ADA project and still no results, who has 50 years to wait for AMCA? Rafale is the clear winner here.

You are really giving run for money to Chinese in Trolling.

 

[Austin]

India Postpones Homegrown Jet Program

NEW DELHI — India has postponed the development of the homegrown Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) program, according to sources in the Indian Defence Ministry, because the MoD first wants to complete the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) program.

The LCA is behind schedule by more than 15 years and the MoD has spent more than $1 billion in its development. Both the LCA and AMCA are being developed by the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) under the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

DRDO spokesman Ravi Gupta said the AMCA project is still at a feasibility stage and is awaiting government approval .

He denied that the project is being abandoned and did not comment when asked if it was postponed.

If the AMCA program is canceled, India might buy additional medium multirole combat aircraft from overseas, an MoD source said. Dassault Aviation of France is the preferred vendor for the 126-jet program.

The AMCA was conceived in 2006 as a twin-engine, stealth/multirole fighter weighing 20 tons and fitted with air-to-air missiles and other precision weapons.

The AMCA development budget is $3 billion, a senior ADA scientist said, under which a prototype would be developed after 2020. By 2035, nearly 200 aircraft are planned to be produced by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

The Eurofighter consortium and US-based Lockheed Martin have offered to tie up with ADA in the development of the AMCA project. The source said the MoD has not made a final decision on any partnerships with overseas manufacturers. Neither Lockheed Martin nor Eurofighter executives were available for comment.

The AMCA project is an extension of the LCA project, which was conceived in 1983 and is still in the prototype stage. The Indian Air Force has awarded a contract for 40 Mark-1 LCAs expected to be inducted in 2016-'17. Another order of more than 80 Mark-2 LCAs is pending.

 

[santosh_g]

It takes 30 years for a failed ADA project and still no results, who has 50 years to wait for AMCA? Rafale is the clear winner here.

u might think it as failed aircraft. but we don't.. we learnt a lot from Tejas program. we spent 1 billion on it and we acquired 1 billion worth knowledge on our own. rafale is a good bird but how many years your rafale will stand a chance against fifth gen fighter?? probably rafale is comparable(may be inferior) to Su-35 we definitely need a fifth gen aircraft which we can mass produce to counter Chinese fifth gen planes. even if we start AMCA in an year or two , even if we flight test it by 2022 , and FOC by 2035 (the time by which so called "RAFALE" will be of no use except train IAF pilots ) it will be a huge advantage and we can carry that research forward to make a 5++ gen fighter. I am interested to know how many years dassault take to built a fifth gen fighter from scratch.. atleast 20 yrs??