AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

Tridev123

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#BREAKING : 1) The #Indian Air Force and ADA have confirmed that the first #Indian 5th generation AMCA fighter will be delivered in Mark-1 and Mark-2 configurations. The Mark-1 will be powered by F414-INS6 engines.

2) However, as has been confirmed by reliable sources, either the F414 or EJ-200 engine options are unacceptable for the 5.5 generation AMCA - in the Mark-2 version, as these engines were never designed with the low ESR technology required for stealth aircraft.

3) 5.5 AMCA will require an engine that has future growth potential for use in 6th generation manned and unmanned programs. #India is in talks with Rolls-Royce. The company has promised to jointly develop a new engine that will not be based on the EJ-200.
All that is fine.
But will timelines be kept. We hear such bombastic announcements every now and then from GOI and PSU units and then the years drag on with nothing to show.

But seriously, we have not been able to even make a reliable flight worthy 75kn turbofan engine and we are dreaming of 5.5 generation Aero engines.

This is the fault with our scientists and engineers in DRDO etc. Making grandiose plans and announcements and then not knowing how to achieve it.

Set reasonable targets which can be achieved in a definite time frame.

Excuse my pessimism but as far as jet engines are concerned we have under performed. Not a lack of talent but mismanagement.

The private sector is treated as a pariah in defence while to the contrary they can add value to the research.

If the intended 5.5 generation jet engine materialises then Rolls Royce probably would be doing the major chunk of the work. Sad but true.

The Government needs to invest thousands of crores in the Turbofan Engine development. Also rope in the private sector.

Please get the Tejas mk2 /MWF to succeed first. Where is the first prototype?.
 

A chauhan

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#BREAKING : 1) The #Indian Air Force and ADA have confirmed that the first #Indian 5th generation AMCA fighter will be delivered in Mark-1 and Mark-2 configurations. The Mark-1 will be powered by F414-INS6 engines.

2) However, as has been confirmed by reliable sources, either the F414 or EJ-200 engine options are unacceptable for the 5.5 generation AMCA - in the Mark-2 version, as these engines were never designed with the low ESR technology required for stealth aircraft.

3) 5.5 AMCA will require an engine that has future growth potential for use in 6th generation manned and unmanned programs. #India is in talks with Rolls-Royce. The company has promised to jointly develop a new engine that will not be based on the EJ-200.
Although it's good to think of low ESR engine, but IAF is always late in making demands.
 

Adrian Corvus

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Hey, can anyone explain how does a DSI type intake affect stealth in both positive and negative way?
 

Dessert Storm

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Hey, can anyone explain how does a DSI type intake affect stealth in both positive and negative way?
Negatives with regard to Stealth not really AFAIK. Negatives with regards to thrust, supercruise etc yes. Attaching a video for this.
As per Wikipedia.
Stealth

DSIs improve the aircraft's very-low-observable characteristics by eliminating radar reflections between the diverter and the aircraft's skin.[1] Additionally, the "bump" surface reduces the engine's exposure to radar, significantly reducing a strong source of radar reflection because they provide an additional shielding of engine fans against radar waves.

Analysts have noted that the DSI reduces the need for application of radar-absorbent materials.

 

Flying Dagger

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Although it's good to think of low ESR engine, but IAF is always late in making demands.
Actually it means RR and UK will be developing fifth gen engine for us and themselves but we will be paying for it which in return will provide us IPR of the product.

I am sure this suggestion must have come from RR/UK themselves.
 

Dessert Storm

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Actually it means RR and UK will be developing fifth gen engine for us and themselves but we will be paying for it which in return will provide us IPR of the product.

I am sure this suggestion must have come from RR/UK themselves.
Actually it means RR and UK will be developing fifth gen engine for us and themselves but we will be paying for it which in return will provide us IPR of the product.

I am sure this suggestion must have come from RR/UK themselves.
It also opens up the door (ever so slightly) for Tempest 'when' India starts looking at collaborating for 6th Gen fighter.
 

Dessert Storm

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It's already open, They have informally invited us and probably behind the door too. So this engine project will be crucial for both of us.
I meant..... 'when' India is interested, they would lean towards Tempest compared to others cuz:
(1) Similarity in engines (big plus)
(2) Indian tech developed for AMCA would (upgraded to 5.5 by AMCA Mk2) be a value-addition to Tempest.
(3) If RR engine and it's IP is given as promised, we know the Brits really mean business.
 

Flying Dagger

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I meant..... 'when' India is interested, they would lean towards Tempest compared to others cuz:
(1) Similarity in engines (big plus)
(2) Indian tech developed for AMCA would (upgraded to 5.5 by AMCA Mk2) be a value-addition to Tempest.
(3) If RR engine and it's IP is given as promised, we know the Brits really mean business.
I have worked with Rolls Royce and I am really impressed by work ethics of Britishers unlike us they do mean their word in a business deal.

Punctual and honest worker but their current gen isn't as good as they used to be so you will see lots of Indians and European working for RR instead of Britishers. Indians already have a good presence there .
 

Dessert Storm

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I have worked with Rolls Royce and I am really impressed by work ethics of Britishers unlike us they do mean their word in a business deal.

Punctual and honest worker but their current gen isn't as good as they used to be so you will see lots of Indians and European working for RR instead of Britishers. Indians already have a good presence there .
That's an interesting snippet you gave in para 2.
The people may be ok, the businesses may be ok, but when the politics comes in, you know it..... hits the fan. By 'Brits are serious', I meant political seriousness, given the kind of tech involved.
 

FOXBAT ALOK

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India’s next generation fighter aircraft will be a join venture : HAL

SOURCE: https://defenceview.in/indias-next-generation-fighter-aircraft-will-be-a-join-venture-hal/

India’s leading aero manufacturer, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is currently working out the costs involved and the structure of the planned JV for the production of the fifth generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA), with an ambitious target for 2028.

India is likely to produce its next generation of fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture, which could require investments of over Rs 2,500 crore from the selected company but would catapult it into a select league capable of manufacturing cutting edge aeronautical systems.


India’s leading aero manufacturer, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd NSE -0.84 % (HAL) is currently working out the costs involved and the structure of the planned JV for the production of the fifth generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA), with an ambitious target for 2028.


AMCA during aero India 2019
AMCA during aero India 2019
HAL chairperson R Madhavan told ET that the preferential model is to give the private sector a controlling stake in the joint venture and the option to take existing manufacturing infrastructure on lease to keep capital investment at a minimal.


“We will be forming a JV between DRDO, HAL and a private party. HAL will provide the infrastructure wherever possible so that the total capital cost is reduced for the private partners. Preferably, we want to keep our share below 50% so that it becomes a private entity,” the top official said.


Costs are currently being worked out and would depend on the model planned and whether the prototype of the next generation fighters will be made by the JV or fabricated by HAL before the serial production start.

“The expectations is that the private sector will have to invest Rs 2,500-3,000 crore but the number could vary. We are suggesting that the prototype manufacturing be kept outside the JV so that the capital requirement can be reduced,” Madhavan said.

While the investment is high, the possibility of manufacturing next generation fighter jets is a huge opportunity for the private sector, which has still to produce any major aviation platform. All major western defence manufacturers are privately held and are supported by government-funded labs and institutions whenever required.

In the new defence acquisition procedure, a new category of procurement has been added to cater for technology transfer from DRDO and PSUs to the private sector for manufacturing of weapon systems.


Details are being worked out but HAL is likely to offer its existing facilities in Nasik to the private sector partner for manufacturing the AMCA in the future. “Most likely the prototypes will be made in Bangalore and the production could take place in Nasik. We are looking around 2028 to start production and we want that the private sector gets the capacity of investing and creating a new ecosystem and HAL does not remain to be the only production partner,” Madhavan said.

While talks with potential industry partners has not yet started, the plan has generated interest in major players that have ventured into the defence sector. Only a handful of Indian companies have the capacity to invest into such a venture but on the plus side, there is set to be a defined and assured order book, besides the business opportunity of maintaining the aircraft that would stay in service for over three decades.

DRDO chief G Satheesh Reddy and Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria spoke on the AMCA at a seminar conducted by the Society of Indian Defence Manufacturers and the Centre for Air Power Studies:

G Satheesh Reddy
: When we started the LCA programme, we had only a handful of private companies available. Today, we have over 18,000 companies and we can get the complete airframe and avionics done by the industry. The AMCA will be a 5.5 Gen aircraft and we are trying to work out models so that more and more of the industry partners with us.

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria: The air force strongly supports the development of a fifth generation AMCA that will have sixth generation characteristics.
 

WolfPack86

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AMCA 5.5Gen fighter to be manufactured by Private company with HAL as Junior partner
India is likely to produce its next generation of fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture, which could require investments of over Rs 2,500 crore from the selected company but would catapult it into a select league capable of manufacturing cutting edge aeronautical systems. India’s leading aero manufacturer, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) is currently working out the costs involved and the structure of the planned JV for the production of the fifth generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA), with an ambitious target for 2028. HAL chairperson R Madhavan told ET that the preferential model is to give the private sector a controlling stake in the joint venture and the option to take existing manufacturing infrastructure on lease to keep capital investment at a minimal. “We will be forming a JV between DRDO, HAL and a private party. HAL will provide the infrastructure wherever possible so that the total capital cost is reduced for the private partners. Preferably, we want to keep our share below 50% so that it becomes a private entity,” the top official said. Costs are currently being worked out and would depend on the model planned and whether the prototype of the next generation fighters will be made by the JV or fabricated by HAL before the serial production starts. “The expectations is that the private sector will have to invest Rs 2,500-3,000 crore but the number could vary. We are suggesting that the prototype manufacturing be kept outside the JV so that the capital requirement can be reduced,” Madhavan said. While the investment is high, the possibility of manufacturing next generation fighter jets is a huge opportunity for the private sector, which has still to produce any major aviation platform. All major western defence manufacturers are privately held and are supported by government-funded labs and institutions whenever required. In the new defence acquisition procedure, a new category of procurement has been added to cater for technology transfer from DRDO and PSUs to the private sector for manufacturing of weapon systems. Details are being worked out but HAL is likely to offer its existing facilities in Nasik to the private sector partner for manufacturing the AMCA in the future. “Most likely the prototypes will be made in Bangalore and the production could take place in Nasik. We are looking around 2028 to start production and we want that the private sector gets the capacity of investing and creating a new ecosystem and HAL does not remain to be the only production partner,” Madhavan said. While talks with potential industry partners has not yet started, the plan has generated interest in major players that have ventured into the defence sector. Only a handful of Indian companies have the capacity to invest into such a venture but on the plus side, there is set to be a defined and assured order book, besides the business opportunity of maintaining the aircraft that would stay in service for over three decades. DRDO chief G Satheesh Reddy and Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria spoke on the AMCA at a seminar conducted by the Society of Indian Defence Manufacturers and the Centre for Air Power Studies: G Satheesh Reddy: When we started the LCA programme, we had only a handful of private companies available. Today, we have over 18,000 companies and we can get the complete airframe and avionics done by the industry. The AMCA will be a 5.5 Gen aircraft and we are trying to work out models so that more and more of the industry partners with us. Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria: The air force strongly supports the development of a fifth generation AMCA that will have sixth generation characteristics.
 

WolfPack86

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India likely to produce next generation fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture

India is likely to produce its next generation of fighter jets in a private sector-led joint venture, which could require investments of over Rs 2,500 crore from the selected company but would catapult it into a select league capable of manufacturing cutting edge aeronautical systems.

India’s leading aero manufacturer, state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd NSE -0.84 % (HAL) is currently working out the costs involved and the structure of the planned JV for the production of the fifth generation Advanced Multirole Combat Aircraft (AMCA), with an ambitious target for 2028.

HAL chairperson R Madhavan told ET that the preferential model is to give the private sector a controlling stake in the joint venture and the option to take existing manufacturing infrastructure on lease to keep capital investment at a minimal.


“We will be forming a JV between DRDO, HAL and a private party. HAL will provide the infrastructure wherever possible so that the total capital cost is reduced for the private partners. Preferably, we want to keep our share below 50% so that it becomes a private entity,” the top official said.

Costs are currently being worked out and would depend on the model planned and whether the prototype of the next generation fighters will be made by the JV or fabricated by HAL before the serial production starts.

“The expectations is that the private sector will have to invest Rs 2,500-3,000 crore but the number could vary. We are suggesting that the prototype manufacturing be kept outside the JV so that the capital requirement can be reduced,” Madhavan said.

While the investment is high, the possibility of manufacturing next generation fighter jets is a huge opportunity for the private sector, which has still to produce any major aviation platform. All major western defence manufacturers are privately held and are supported by government-funded labs and institutions whenever required.

In the new defence acquisition procedure, a new category of procurement has been added to cater for technology transfer from DRDO and PSUs to the private sector for manufacturing of weapon systems.

Details are being worked out but HAL is likely to offer its existing facilities in Nasik to the private sector partner for manufacturing the AMCA in the future. “Most likely the prototypes will be made in Bangalore and the production could take place in Nasik. We are looking around 2028 to start production and we want that the private sector gets the capacity of investing and creating a new ecosystem and HAL does not remain to be the only production partner,” Madhavan said.

While talks with potential industry partners has not yet started, the plan has generated interest in major players that have ventured into the defence sector. Only a handful of Indian companies have the capacity to invest into such a venture but on the plus side, there is set to be a defined and assured order book, besides the business opportunity of maintaining the aircraft that would stay in service for over three decades.

DRDO chief G Satheesh Reddy and Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria spoke on the AMCA at a seminar conducted by the Society of Indian Defence Manufacturers and the Centre for Air Power Studies:

G Satheesh Reddy: When we started the LCA programme, we had only a handful of private companies available. Today, we have over 18,000 companies and we can get the complete airframe and avionics done by the industry. The AMCA will be a 5.5 Gen aircraft and we are trying to work out models so that more and more of the industry partners with us.

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria: The air force strongly supports the development of a fifth generation AMCA that will have sixth generation characteristics.

 

scatterStorm

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The shift from private sector is necessary. From decades we have seen PSU's making grandiose commitments and later failed to deliver. Its a tight slap to these PSUs, by involving private players, they know there doors would be shut if they don't deliver.

IAF recognizes the failure to deliver jets on time, I think Kalyani should get involved into making a JV with RR. However I am surprised, that they wish to have the jet with 5.5 gen tech, yet they failed to recognize all aspect stealth, the engines are exposed, the tempest program provides us a view of what can be done with hot plume of exhaust.
 

AZTEC

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Give the contract to L&T. They have completed all their defence contracts within the deadline and without cost escalation.
Yes, L&T is one of the most trustworthy private companies because they’ve proven their worth in India’s SSBN project (ATV programme).
G Satheesh Reddy: When we started the LCA programme, we had only a handful of private companies available. Today, we have over 18,000 companies and we can get the complete airframe and avionics done by the industry. The AMCA will be a 5.5 Gen aircraft and we are trying to work out models so that more and more of the industry partners with us.

Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria: The air force strongly supports the development of a fifth generation AMCA that will have sixth generation characteristics.
IAF chief says AMCA will have 6 generation tech ! DRDO chief calls it a 5.5 generation jet !! This is a big statement ! It made my day !
 
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