AMCA - Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (HAL)

black eagle

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A nice read, about the iterations the design has went through

http://idrw.org/?p=2691
MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter
some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
3) AESA Radar
4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)
8)Twin pilot configured

Twin pilot configuration even for the AMCA!!!!! Does the IAF wants all its future fighters to be twin pilot configured???
 

gogbot

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some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
3) AESA Radar
4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)
8)Twin pilot configured

Twin pilot configuration even for the AMCA!!!!! Does the IAF wants all its future fighters to be twin pilot configured???
I know this is ridiculous ,
MMRCA , MKI , FGFA and Now even AMCA . All twin seat.
They seem to be having no issue at all with regards to manpower

They need like 500+ pilots for each type of plane , 2000+ for the twin seat fleet alone
 

JBH22

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I know this is ridiculous ,
MMRCA , MKI , FGFA and Now even AMCA . All twin seat.
They seem to be having no issue at all with regards to manpower

They need like 500+ pilots for each type of plane , 2000+ for the twin seat fleet alone
This leaves us with only Tejas that is only single seat
 

nrj

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Twin pilot configuration even for the AMCA!!!!! Does the IAF wants all its future fighters to be twin pilot configured???
This makes me question the operational combat radius of AMCA. Thye can utilise space consumed by second pilot for better range. Its already < 25tons. We definately don't want it to carry external fuel tanks to enhance range as it'll dramatically increase RCS.

I wonder what configuration IN will require for to-be N-AMCA.....
 
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black eagle

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This makes me question the operational combat radius of AMCA. Thye can utilise space consumed by second pilot for better range. Its already < 25tons. We definately don't want it to carry external fuel tanks to enhance range as it'll dramatically increase RCS.

I wonder what configuration IN will require for to-be N-AMCA.....
& also the fact that twin pilot configuration means heavier aircraft which would affect its maneuverability.... Just have no idea what the IAF have in mind to offset that...
 

p2prada

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The advantages of twin pilots are too many compared to disadvantages.

The last I heard about Rafale was either the French ACM or Admiral saying he wished they had developed only twin seater Rafales. This was a long time ago.
 

sandeepdg

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Very stringent requirements placed by the IAF, but that's okay I guess since we are looking at the future, hence they want a semi 5G aircraft to meet the future challenges of air combat. But I am skeptical that the ADA will be able to meet them within the span of the said 18 months. Only if they do can there be a possibility of an prototype taking off by 2017.
 

Parthy

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some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
3) AESA Radar
4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)
8)Twin pilot configured

Twin pilot configuration even for the AMCA!!!!! Does the IAF wants all its future fighters to be twin pilot configured???
Lets not get carried away only by the requirements given by IAF.. Having Tejas MkII changes still in drawing board whether ADA will be able to get AMCA on time ~2years??

First they have to freeze their airframe and then Kaveri-snecma engine should be ready by that time provided less weight and giving the required 90Kn thrust.. Next AESA radar where DRDO is yet to finalise the JV with Israeli firm.. The problem is they'll be able to get it on track as planned??
 

gogbot

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Lets not get carried away only by the requirements given by IAF.. Having Tejas MkII changes still in drawing board whether ADA will be able to get AMCA on time ~2years??
AMCA has been in the works since 2006 , basic foundation already exists.
Same goes with Tejas MK-2 , it has been in the works for a whole now final design may be shown at this aero India hopefully


First they have to freeze their airframe
IAF ASR changes will be incorporated starting this year.
Basic design is already exists.

and then Kaveri-snecma engine should be ready by that time provided less weight and giving the required 90Kn thrust..
That's handled by GTRE , and with the french groviding the M-88-3 core its not going to give us much issues, If engine is nore ready , The GE-414 engine will be used at least on the prototypes. Since the French are involved from the start , i don't see many issues.

Next AESA radar where DRDO is yet to finalise the JV with Israeli firm.. The problem is they'll be able to get it on track as planned??
AESA radar development is hardly delayed. They already have an AESA in the works for AEW&C ,
JV partner for the Tejas AESA , is only required for AESA array development and integration on to Tejas and Maybe also AMCA. Other work can processed without them.


Honestly I can't see any delays with the JV , as DRDO labs have effectively outsourced significant parts of their workload.
 

JBH22

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The ironic part is Tejas is the plane that will make up the smallest part of the fleet.
At under 200 aircraft.
So we'll be in a situation where

Top-Tier=Su-30Mki, FGFA
Mid=MRCA,Mirage-2000,Mig-29,Jaguar
Low End=Mig-27,LCA

Logistics nightmare to keep that fighting force in shape
 
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ace009

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So we'll be in a situation where

Top-Tier=Su-30Mki, FGFA
Mid=MRCA,Mirage-2000,Mig-29,Jaguar
Low End=Mig-27,LCA

Logistics nightmare to keep that fighting force in shape
YEs - but the idea is when AMCA arrives and LCA mkII MLU (or mkIII) arrives we will have the following ...
By 2025

Air Superiority -
PAKFA/ FGFA (50?)
Su-30 MKI (300)

Multi-role Attack -
MMRCA (200)
AMCA (50?)
others (50?) (Jags, Mirages and Mig27 being phased out)

Point Defense -
LCA mk II (100)
LCA mk III (50?)
Others (100?) (LCA mk I, Mig 21 bis, Mig 29 etc)

By 2030 these numbers should be trimmed down to 5/6 types only :)-P) ...

Air Superiority -
PAKFA/ FGFA (200)
Su-30 MKI (300)

Multi-role Attack -
MMRCA (200)
AMCA (200)

Point Defense -
LCA mk II (100)
LCA mk III (100)
 

Tshering22

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Hey people, since IAF wants all this to be twin seater including FGFA, you think this would be how end products would look like?:

Mitsubishi ATD-X ShinShin

 
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shuvo@y2k10

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i am not very hpeful regarding the engine.kaveri+m-88 core will be atmost a 4 th gen engine-sufficient to power tejas mk2.for a fifth gen fighter post 2025 we need a fifth gen engine incorporating supercruise,tvc,flat nozzles etc.drdo should start work on a separate engine project similar to what russians and chinese are doing for their fgfa programmes respectively-whichcan be completed in the next 10-15 years.kaveri-smeca engine can power prototypes as a stop gap measure.it may not be another kaveri since drdo already manufactures su-30mki engine and working with the russians in the pmf project and also a huge experience gained from the kaveri programme.
also i hope the three other prototypes of amca be reveiled in the aero india this year.
 

p2prada

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i am not very hpeful regarding the engine.kaveri+m-88 core will be atmost a 4 th gen engine-sufficient to power tejas mk2.for a fifth gen fighter post 2025 we need a fifth gen engine incorporating supercruise,tvc,flat nozzles etc.drdo should start work on a separate engine project similar to what russians and chinese are doing for their fgfa programmes respectively-whichcan be completed in the next 10-15 years.kaveri-smeca engine can power prototypes as a stop gap measure.it may not be another kaveri since drdo already manufactures su-30mki engine and working with the russians in the pmf project and also a huge experience gained from the kaveri programme.
also i hope the three other prototypes of amca be reveiled in the aero india this year.
The foreign nations want 36 tons of thrust on an 18 ton platform. We want 20 tons of thrust on a 10 ton platform. GTRE-Snecma engine is enough for AMCA.
 

neo29

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MCA to AMCA: Journey of Cutting edge Next Gen Fighter

MCA 1.0 – Concept and initial idea for development of Twin engine based Medium combat aircraft can be traced back to late 90's. That's even before first flight of the LCA TD-1 had taken place, Medium combat aircraft (MCA) then was a tailless delta design with two engines, combined with a thrust vectoring control capability.



Aircraft was designed keeping in mind LCA-Tejas Delta wings and was a direct derivative from LCA , as per original idea it was supposed to have maximum spare and design commodity with Tejas at that time. Main purpose was to replace the aging Jaguar & MiG-27 fleet from the Indian Air force, original design weight was supposed to be less than 20 tonne. And was supposed to be a Strike aircraft with secondary role of a point defence fighter , In Beginning very small team of Scientist were working on it which was privately funded by ADA from its own budget, but without Tejas proving its mettle first, India air force nor Government of India was Interested to seriously consider this Proposal by ADA, till Tejas Program started gaining popularity among IAF and Defence Ministry whole MCA Project was in cold storage and put under back burner only to revived again in mid-2004-5. A twin-engine delta wing version was been shelved by ADA then.






MCA 2.0 aka Next Gen Fighter aircraft (NGFA) – MCA got a new name "Next Generation Fighter Aircraft "on recommendation from the Secretary, Defence Production. DRDO and ADA again began to work on MCA aka NGFA in Mid-2006 after initial success of Tejas and with the backing of the government. Indian Air Force asked the ADA to prepare a detailed project report on the development of a Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) incorporating stealth features. larger team of scientist were assigned to work on the Program, even in this period there was no funding from the Government but a request for Proposal was asked to ascertain if the project can be viable. This was completely new design based on low observability design elements. First look at the aircraft was only available in 2009 when a wind tunnel model was displayed in Aero India 2009 for the first time; Aircraft featured Serpentine air intakes with reduced RCS, and Internal Weapons Bay.

Earlier Design of MCA (MCA 1.0) was supposed to be a 4.5 Gen aircraft with larger payload , Range and powered by two Kaveri engine, but new MCA (MCA 2.0) had added stealth elements (Semi – stealth) with frontal section getting more Stealth element and also with Reduced Cross Section (RCS) , and with Empty weight of 17 tonne along with 2 tonne internal Weapons and 4 tonne of Fuel , new MCA could have MTOW (Maximum Take of weight) of 22 tonne powered by two Kaveri thrust vectoring engine based on Snecma's M88-3 core producing 90k of thrust .

AMCA 3.0 (Advance Medium combat aircraft) – Indian Air force after studying ADA's Proposal and after working out its own Air Staff requirements (ASR) for the AMCA issued its ASR to DRDO and ADA in April 2010. Indian air forces ASR threw few surprises for MCA Project, like a demanding customer which IAF has been all this year came up with more stringent requirements. some of the Requirements asked by the IAF in its ASR are below and how MCA (2.0) became AMCA

1) AMCA will not exceed 25 tons weight.
2) Twin engine powered aircraft with higher thrust.
3) AESA Radar
4) Semi – Stealth is not an option, IAF wants it to be fully stealthy aircraft with low RCS.
5) Redesign in its currently proposed air frame design to make it stealthier
6) More of Locally developed technology and less imported technology (Radars, Engines, and Avionics)

7) Multi-Role all weather stealth aircraft (Earlier idea by ADA was a Strike aircraft with other capabilities)

8 ) Twin pilot configured

ADA is currently studying the ASR put forward by Indian air force and officially will began work on AMCA in mid-2011, MCA (2.0) design will get further optimization of airframe shaping to further enhance Stealth in it, it will also get further treatment to reduce its IR Signature through Nozzle design, better Bay cooling along with reduction on exhaust temperature from the engine nozzles, special coatings for polycarbonate canopy to make AMCA India's first stealth fighter aircraft.

ADA has asked for 18 months to further improve the Airframe changes required to meet ASR issued by the IAF, other than the wind tunnel model displayed in Aero India 2009 there are more three other variants which never has been displayed yet, DRDO is currently planning three Prototypes of AMCA and two production series trial jets which will carry out initial test flights. ADA has promised first flight of AMCA by 2017 which looks highly unlikely, since ADA will need to work on Airframe optimization first and if it fails to get better optimization on stringent requirements laid down by IAF then it might have to work on completely new design itself . $2 billion funding is set to be allocated over the next three years for its development and ADA already received initial funds to start the project.

Whole MCA program has seen many changes From a 4.5 Gen aircraft to Semi-Stealth aircraft to fully stealth aircraft.

Engine: Plans are to use Two Kaveri engine based on M88-3 (Core) , if the engines are not ready by the time for first flight either Ge's F-414IN engines which will power Tejas MK-2 will be used or original lower thrust Kaveri engine might be used for Technology demonstrator aircrafts , still clarity on engine part will come in coming years .

http://idrw.org/?p=2691
 

warriorextreme

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chinese show the thing first then declare its name...
we declare name first and then after 25 years show that thing.
 

black eagle

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This thread is redundant. AMCA thread already exists. please post it there. Mods please take necessary action.
 

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