ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Chinmoy]

SAM won't replace the role of interceptor they have their own limitations....

Most of the strike job these days are more about avionics weapons etc that's why any fighter jet with decent space , range etc can be turned into a multirole.

Yes. BUT... when we talk about an interceptor, two very basic things do matter in the aircraft. Rate of climb and mach number at altitude.

Mig-21 was built as an interceptor from ground up. Tejas was built as a multirole fighter from start. So yes, interceptor is part of its role. But terming it as pure interceptor would be wrong.

 

[Chinmoy]

The difference is we do have predecessor of mk2 at our hands, our airforce does know what could this plane do. They could change anything in it, they could provide consultations and have a good way to complete the project, but no, more imports.

But Mk2 is a whole new design inside out. On paper Mk2 is generation ahead of Mk1a. So you have to wait till Mk2 comes out of paper to know about its true potential.

 

[VIP]

If Gyaanis could solve this puzzle who is funding HAL for hanger construction?? Then we can easily calculate whether fund for MWF is released or not??

we might come to know that MWF project is not suffering due to non availability of funds.

It's just a hanger, they already have sufficient tech to built mk2. Is IAF funding this program? Fuck no, they're sitting in their chair dreaming for MRFA but safed dadhi wale baba won't let that happen I hope. Just divert some funds from some fucking minority welfare schemes to mk2.

 

[VIP]

But Mk2 is a whole new design inside out. On paper Mk2 is generation ahead of Mk1a. So you have to wait till Mk2 comes out of paper to know about its true potential.

Yes I agree about the generation change, you think after looking at mk1a, mk2 is not happening? The major issue is engine only, no funds and tech at hand at that time, I think time has changed now and we could have it indigenously, except GOI throw reservation ke chobe out of the ADA and HAL, give free flow of funding. Give high pay and make employees accountable, deal with them already but it should have been done in 2000s, not now. Now, we don't have time.

 

[Chinmoy]

Do they? Let's have a hypothetical situation, what if modi doesn't win in 2024, then let's see how mk2 program goes. They are still "COMMITTED" to MRFA, but when it comes to mk2, we'll see. You think this force feeding was a problem? Ofcourse for the import lobbies it was a nightmare. As someone said, they could import something and upgrade it gradually but when it comes to Tejas, it's inferior, what's so inferior about Tejas that mig21 does? Or even mig29, the nightmare. They can purchase 2nd hand frames but not tejas.

If you have followed Tejas development, Mk2 is being suggested by ADA based on inputs provided by IAF after flying Mk1 LSPs. But as Mk2 design itself would take time, so to keep the fund flowing, Mk1a was suggested as interim solution.

As far as political scenario is concerned, do you think that even AMCA would fructify if government pull the plug? Hell even imports would not happen. Job of IAF is not to look after the industrial growth, but security. As far as MRFA is concerned, thinking that LCA mk1a & mk2 is enough to fill up the role is pure stupidity. You could get numbers, but not capability. Capability buildup do take decades.

 

[dumdumdum]

If you have followed Tejas development, Mk2 is being suggested by ADA based on inputs provided by IAF after flying Mk1 LSPs. But as Mk2 design itself would take time, so to keep the fund flowing, Mk1a was suggested as interim solution.

As far as political scenario is concerned, do you think that even AMCA would fructify if government pull the plug? Hell even imports would not happen. Job of IAF is not to look after the industrial growth, but security. As far as MRFA is concerned, thinking that LCA mk1a & mk2 is enough to fill up the role is pure stupidity. You could get numbers, but not capability. Capability buildup do take decades.

I think the sequence is wrong. MK1A was suggested to ensure that IAF accepted MK1 FOC & they actually started inducting IOC & FOC aircrafts into active duty . Whatever shortcomings were found in MK1, did not require any redesign hence MK1A was to follow MK1 quickly. IAF tried to delay induction of Tejas by pointing at these shortcomings. Late MP saw through it, realized if the inductions is delayed so far out in future, Tejas's true potential will never be demonstrated and it will remain an R&D program forever.

MK2 has got nothing to do with shortcomings in MK1 or MK1A. It is a new design, it is in a different class (Medium) as compared to MK1. We might see a situation where while MK2 are rolling off from assembly, more MK1As are ordered either by IAF or by smaller foreign airforces.

If any further enhancements are required in the "Light" aircraft we will see a MK1B. Medium class will continue MK2..MK2A etc

 

[VIP]

If you have followed Tejas development, Mk2 is being suggested by ADA based on inputs provided by IAF after flying Mk1 LSPs. But as Mk2 design itself would take time, so to keep the fund flowing, Mk1a was suggested as interim solution.

As far as political scenario is concerned, do you think that even AMCA would fructify if government pull the plug? Hell even imports would not happen. Job of IAF is not to look after the industrial growth, but security. As far as MRFA is concerned, thinking that LCA mk1a & mk2 is enough to fill up the role is pure stupidity. You could get numbers, but not capability. Capability buildup do take decades.

I'm quite following the program for some 15 years. The mk1a is a stop gape filled by HAL, not ADA. They suggested to give the "NEW" requirements by IAF, what do you think why we are having foreign AESA in early batches. Mk1 was designed on the basis of "REQUIREMENTS" of IAF, just like Mk2, as I told you, what if Modi doesn't win, IAF would outright junk this project in no time and would also indefinitely halt the further deliveries of mk1a. They will float an RAF as they do always. If they cared, why not acted earlier to built domestic industry and waited for import maal. Anything can happen if you get the kickbacks, domestic industry won't provide the required kickbacks in south block IAS madarchods and import shills in IAF. The egos of IAF that they are superior to navy and army, just like what army thinks for themselves over other forces is astounding. Modi couldn't setup central command because of this chutiyapa only. Frankly, the system itself is not ready for the inevitable they're shitting thier pants when chinkis show some videos of their domestic capabilities and ask for more imports.

It will be a big stupidity if we abandon tejas and AMCA project in favor of MRFA, it will kill the knowhow and industry builded out of these projects.

 

[Chinmoy]

15??HAL made them even they could make an order out of its own pocket.

I don't know where you are coming from...

India’s Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) has approved the procurement of 15 light combat helicopters (LCH), with five units for the Army and ten for the Air Force.

https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/0...r-the-indigenous-light-combat-helicopter-lch/

That number is a joke. And let me remind you, this project and the projects you wrote are actually force feeded. Let's not talk about arjun, the numbers mediocre compared to 900+ T90s we have. ATAGS is already fucking awesome but yeah, we want athos

The joke is our thought process actually. Do you know what was the intial order of ALH? 18. And how many are in service now? 226.
We jokers do think that if the blades are rotating and copter is flying, we should order it in 100s. Same for Arjun, same for ATAGS.
124 Arjuns were not force feed. 114 Dhanush were not force feed.

 

[VIP]

I think the sequence is wrong. MK1A was suggested to ensure that IAF accepted MK1 FOC & they actually started inducting IOC & FOC aircrafts into active duty . Whatever shortcomings were found in MK1, did not require any redesign hence MK1A was to follow MK1 quickly. IAF tried to delay induction of Tejas by pointing at these shortcomings. Late MP saw through it, realized if the inductions is delayed so far out in future, Tejas's true potential will never be demonstrated and it will remain an R&D program forever.

MK2 has got nothing to do with shortcomings in MK1 or MK1A. It is a new design, it is in a different class (Medium) as compared to MK1. We might see a situation where while MK2 are rolling off from assembly, more MK1As are ordered either by IAF or by smaller foreign airforces.

If any further enhancements are required in the "Light" aircraft we will see a MK1B. Medium class will continue MK2..MK2A etc

Name that MP Manohar Parrikar and glorify him, teach about him in the schools, make statues of his everywhere in all over the country. I seriously wish he was not called by god, otherwise scenerio would have been much different then it is now.

 

[Chinmoy]

Yes I agree about the generation change, you think after looking at mk1a, mk2 is not happening? The major issue is engine only, no funds and tech at hand at that time, I think time has changed now and we could have it indigenously, except GOI throw reservation ke chobe out of the ADA and HAL, give free flow of funding. Give high pay and make employees accountable, deal with them already but it should have been done in 2000s, not now. Now, we don't have time.

No. Infact it was I who said here in the very thread that whether IAF announce it in press meet or not, Mk2 is going to come.

 

[VIP]

I don't know where you are coming from...



https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/0...r-the-indigenous-light-combat-helicopter-lch/


The joke is our thought process actually. Do you know what was the intial order of ALH? 18. And how many are in service now? 226.
We jokers do think that if the blades are rotating and copter is flying, we should order it in 100s. Same for Arjun, same for ATAGS.
124 Arjuns were not force feed. 114 Dhanush were not force feed.

Read the date, it's 30 March, 2022. Since when 15 LCH are flying?? Who gave funding for them? I know the numbers will increase in near future when HELINA becomes mature but why wait? Why not order since the beginning? Just like you went ahead for mig29, rafale, etc. and upgrade them later. Arjun program has faced a lot of hurdles, don't wanna talk about it. I'm surprised they even ordered this numbers. Unka bas chale to jo hai usko bhi disassembled karke vapis bhijawa de.

 

[VIP]

No. Infact it was I who said here in the very thread that whether IAF announce it in press meet or not, Mk2 is going to come.

Ofcourse it will come as earlier it was posted that PMO is taking real time follow up of this project. The point was about "COMMITMENT" like IAF is "COMMITTED" to MRFA.

 

[Chinmoy]

I think the sequence is wrong. MK1A was suggested to ensure that IAF accepted MK1 FOC & they actually started inducting IOC & FOC aircrafts into active duty . Whatever shortcomings were found in MK1, did not require any redesign hence MK1A was to follow MK1 quickly. IAF tried to delay induction of Tejas by pointing at these shortcomings. Late MP saw through it, realized if the inductions is delayed so far out in future, Tejas's true potential will never be demonstrated and it will remain an R&D program forever.

MK2 has got nothing to do with shortcomings in MK1 or MK1A. It is a new design, it is in a different class (Medium) as compared to MK1. We might see a situation where while MK2 are rolling off from assembly, more MK1As are ordered either by IAF or by smaller foreign airforces.

If any further enhancements are required in the "Light" aircraft we will see a MK1B. Medium class will continue MK2..MK2A etc

The LCA Mk.1A variant dates back to 2015, when the IAF, unhappy with the state of the programme, agreed to an upgraded Tejas that would improve on the LCA Mk.1 that had just achieved Initial Operating Capability (IOC), by adding a new electronically-scanned active array radar, updated avionics, electronic warfare capability, all accompanied by only minor structural changes. This would, at least on paper, be delivered more quickly and cheaply than a comprehensive redesign around a new engine and aerodynamic configuration, which would result in effectively an all-new jet (the LCA Mk.2).

The Mk.1A programme was given formal sanction by the MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council (DAC) in November 2016 at a projected cost of Rs 50,000 crore, the essential first step toward an actual contract. After the LCA Mk.1 achieved Final Operating Capability (FOC), albeit with certain waivers in 2019, the procurement of the improved Mk.1A became all but certain. In March 2020, the DAC approved a revised figure of Rs 37,000 crore (US$ 5.05 billion) for 83 LCA Mk.1A.

https://theprint.in/opinion/tejas-k...der-check-it-is-hals-game-to-lose-now/587028/

 

[Chinmoy]

I'm quite following the program for some 15 years. The mk1a is a stop gape filled by HAL, not ADA. They suggested to give the "NEW" requirements by IAF, what do you think why we are having foreign AESA in early batches. Mk1 was designed on the basis of "REQUIREMENTS" of IAF, just like Mk2, as I told you, what if Modi doesn't win, IAF would outright junk this project in no time and would also indefinitely halt the further deliveries of mk1a. They will float an RAF as they do always. If they cared, why not acted earlier to built domestic industry and waited for import maal. Anything can happen if you get the kickbacks, domestic industry won't provide the required kickbacks in south block IAS madarchods and import shills in IAF. The egos of IAF that they are superior to navy and army, just like what army thinks for themselves over other forces is astounding. Modi couldn't setup central command because of this chutiyapa only. Frankly, the system itself is not ready for the inevitable they're shitting thier pants when chinkis show some videos of their domestic capabilities and ask for more imports.

It will be a big stupidity if we abandon tejas and AMCA project in favor of MRFA, it will kill the knowhow and industry builded out of these projects.

I think I already replied to it. Just wait for others to answer before answering your own questions.

 

[jai jaganath]

I don't know where you are coming from...



https://www.aviacionline.com/2022/0...r-the-indigenous-light-combat-helicopter-lch/


The joke is our thought process actually. Do you know what was the intial order of ALH? 18. And how many are in service now? 226.
We jokers do think that if the blades are rotating and copter is flying, we should order it in 100s. Same for Arjun, same for ATAGS.
124 Arjuns were not force feed. 114 Dhanush were not force feed.

Point is alh didn't face delays as atags and lch
Even trails are completed for atags and approval was also given but still no order is being placed for 114 atags
Lch is going different direction we can't use them if we get into conflict in next 4-5 years as process is too long even after lsp delivery so we can have lch in good nos in 2029-30 but development and trails were completed long ago

 

[Chinmoy]

Read the date, it's 30 March, 2022. Since when 15 LCH are flying?? Who gave funding for them? I know the numbers will increase in near future when HELINA becomes mature but why wait? Why not order since the beginning? Just like you went ahead for mig29, rafale, etc. and upgrade them later. Arjun program has faced a lot of hurdles, don't wanna talk about it. I'm surprised they even ordered this numbers. Unka bas chale to jo hai usko bhi disassembled karke vapis bhijawa de.

Do you know why emphasis has been given by everyone to bring in private sector in defence? Because of this very funding issue. All our projects gets delay because of it. Developers don't spend from their end and expect 100% funding from government or client even for the prototype. So HAL spending from their pocket to bring out LCH is first positive step towards this. No where in world you would find a product, except strategic in nature, for which 100% funding is done by government. Its always 30-70 or anywhere near that margin. So yes, HAL has invested in LCH from their end and would take the cut from sales.
Now why wait for LCH. Actually we could have had LCH 5 or 7 years back, if IAF would not have meddled in it. Delay in LCH is because of IAF and we already discussed it in relevant thread. No need to derail this thread now.
Same for Arjun. Lets discuss it in relevant thread with facts instead of RR.

 

[Chinmoy]

Ofcourse it will come as earlier it was posted that PMO is taking real time follow up of this project. The point was about "COMMITMENT" like IAF is "COMMITTED" to MRFA.

Let LCA Mk2 come out from paper first for IAF to give commitment. Saying something in media meet don't mean it to be something written on rockface.

 

[Chinmoy]

Point is alh didn't face delays as atags and lch
Even trails are completed for atags and approval was also given but still no order is being placed for 114 atags
Lch is going different direction we can't use them if we get into conflict in next 4-5 years as process is too long even after lsp delivery so we can have lch in good nos in 2029-30 but development and trails were completed long ago

It didn't faced delay?

ALH first flown in 1992. First batch was delivered to IA in 2003. Second order came in 2008. This was the case with a combined order of IA, IN, IAF and ICG. Even after this it was grounded because of design flaw. Only after that its mass order was placed.

 

[jai jaganath]

It didn't faced delay?

ALH first flown in 1992. First batch was delivered to IA in 2003. Second order came in 2008. This was the case with a combined order of IA, IN, IAF and ICG. Even after this it was grounded because of design flaw. Only after that its mass order was placed.

It did but case of atags is getting worse
U see hurt all trails are completed but still no orders for approved 144 guns although requirement is 1500 I suppose
In case of lch they said they were waiting for development of atgms and last update was heli launched atgm has completed trails but user trails remaining

 

[Chinmoy]

It did but case of atags is getting worse
U see hurt all trails are completed but still no orders for approved 144 guns although requirement is 1500 I suppose
In case of lch they said they were waiting for development of atgms and last update was heli launched atgm has completed trails but user trails remaining

I already mentioned couple of page back that AON for ATAGS is already underway. We would see the intial order by 24 .

In LCH, 5 LSPs been provided just for user trials. But as I already mentioned, if IAF would not have meddled, LCH would have came before MkIV.