ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[karn]

I would disagree. In the short run, IAF is suffering because they still rely on Mig-21s and have not replaced the MIG-27s.

Unless you believe those 30-40 year old obsolete jets are better than Tejas Mk-1/1As, the air force has shot themselves in the foot thanks to their disdain for Indian products and love of phoren maal. We should have had half a dozen squadrons ordered and inducted by now, and would have cost just a few billion dollars. Woukd they be as good as the latest Gripens and Rafales? No. But they would be a match for anything the PAF has, full up squadrons and far better than what the IAF has stubbornly stuck with.

And suggesting that IAF should have waited for Tejas mj 2 is a familiar trick. Demand the perfect to avoid ordering the good, because phoren is best.

Before FOC certification (2019) Tejas was in no way ready to replace anything.
The tejas mk1a orders were given while the tejas production line was still running till ADA gives them something that fulfills the original ASQR.
Why should the airforce have wasted money on the IOC tejas ?

 

[MirageBlue]

I've tried to look for the IndiaTV interview with Dr Girish Deodhare. I still can't find it. Has anyone else seen this interview on TV or YT?

Found it

And as expected, IDRW takes an idli and makes a total bhel puri out of it. All masala added with extra chutney, peanuts, churmure, sev and tops it up with a liberal dose of sambhar without even asking for it.

Dr Deodhare simply said that the IAF is planning to induct 6 squadrons initially and the numbers will go up later. He never mentioned "Block II" or anything.

BTW, do watch the video, you'll get to see the digital models of the AMCA and Tejas Mk2. And my oh my! the Tejas Mk2 is such a sexy beast!!

 

[Chinmoy]

I would disagree. In the short run, IAF is suffering because they still rely on Mig-21s and have not replaced the MIG-27s.

Unless you believe those 30-40 year old obsolete jets are better than Tejas Mk-1/1As, the air force has shot themselves in the foot thanks to their disdain for Indian products and love of phoren maal. We should have had half a dozen squadrons ordered and inducted by now, and would have cost just a few billion dollars. Woukd they be as good as the latest Gripens and Rafales? No. But they would be a match for anything the PAF has, full up squadrons and far better than what the IAF has stubbornly stuck with.

And suggesting that IAF should have waited for Tejas mj 2 is a familiar trick. Demand the perfect to avoid ordering the good, because phoren is best.

IAF had red flagged the dwindling squad strength since long. They were not given the go ahead for new purchase. Whose fault was it?

Its not the love of Phoren maal which has forced IAF to retain Migs. They did retired 23s even before MMRCA deal came in play. Likewise 27s also got retired even before LCA FOC delivery started. Problem was the long pending order of replacement for these craft about which IAF was repeatedly saying but government was sitting on the proposals. IAF is nowhere saying that they are preferring Migs over LCA or MRFA. They are only saying that to keep up the capability rate, they need MRFA along with LCAs.

How LCA Mk1A is perfect or better then any jets participating in MMRCA 1.0. Could you enlighten me please over here?

 

[pipebomb]

Is the lack of retractable refueling probe making any difference to the success of the Rafale? Does the J-10 have a retractable probe ?

We shouldn't mindlessly copy what French or Chinese did, we should have our own reasons to go for a fixed probe.

Does a fixed probe increase drag ? YES
Does a fixed probe affect RCS ? YES
Didn't ADA had to re-qualify FCS after installing the Cobham probe.

What are the benifits of a fixed probe to go through above mentioned for a cleanslate(kinda) fighter.
Please share, happy to learn.

The aim is to get the Tejas Mk2 prototype out and into flight tests

The first prototype was not planning to have a retractable probe anyway, it's the following prototype which was.

 

[Longewala]

Before FOC certification (2019) Tejas was in no way ready to replace anything.
The tejas mk1a orders were given while the tejas production line was still running till ADA gives them something that fulfills the original ASQR.
Why should the airforce have wasted money on the IOC tejas ?

Tejas was better than Mig-21 / 27s even in IOC condition. And there was no harm in ordering just 3-4 squadrons pre FOC and then patching them up later, while building up the industrial base, ironing out operational issues and ramping up production for mk1A and then mk2
That's how it works pretty much everywhere, no one else waits for a perfect product or FOC certification to start production, as every fighter jet program takes several years for that journey.

 

[Arjun Mk1A]

Tejas was better than Mig-21 / 27s even in IOC condition. And there was no harm in ordering just 3-4 squadrons pre FOC and then patching them up later, while building up the industrial base, ironing out operational issues and ramping up production for mk1A and then mk2
That's how it works pretty much everywhere, no one else waits for a perfect product or FOC certification to start production, as every fighter jet program takes several years for that journey.

The first batch of J11 consist of various Russian Subsystems and engine and this followed by J11B with significant Chinese subsystems and even Chinese engine (Engine capability - not known)

Even Su-30 MKI came with MK variant with downgraded capability and followed by improvement in Subsystems.

On the other hand poor Tejas forced to do a lot of stuffs and still got egg on face with small order.

 

[MonaLazy]

Does a fixed probe increase drag ? YES
Does a fixed probe affect RCS ? YES
Didn't ADA had to re-qualify FCS after installing the Cobham probe.

What are the benifits of a fixed probe to go through above mentioned for a cleanslate(kinda) fighter.
Please share, happy to learn.

The first prototype was not planning to have a retractable probe anyway, it's the following prototype which was.

Increase in drag/RCS is minimal & if you really are on a mission that needs that 2% extra range/stealth just detach the external probe. Reattach later. It is fixed only in the sense that it is not retractable, but is easily removable/attachable.

The benefits of non retracting probe is less weight of the IFR mechanism and you have one less point of failure. Both good things for an airplane.

 

[karn]

Tejas was better than Mig-21 / 27s even in IOC condition. And there was no harm in ordering just 3-4 squadrons pre FOC and then patching them up later, while building up the industrial base, ironing out operational issues and ramping up production for mk1A and then mk2
That's how it works pretty much everywhere, no one else waits for a perfect product or FOC certification to start production, as every fighter jet program takes several years for that journey.

3-4 squadrons pre FOC means 3-4 less squadrons post FOC .. and no.. IOC Tejas were not ready to do the work of mig 21 and mig 27... they had various issues only a few of which come out in news articles. The migs whatever their condition could be counted on the IOC Tejas could not .
Again why does the IAF have to saddled with aircraft it can't use in war ?
And ironing out of issues and building industrial base happened in any case with 20 aircraft.
None of the IOCs aircraft are gonna get patched up either . Why do you expect that 3-4 squadrons of IOC would get patched up .

 

[IndianHawk]

Before FOC certification (2019) Tejas was in no way ready to replace anything.
The tejas mk1a orders were given while the tejas production line was still running till ADA gives them something that fulfills the original ASQR.
Why should the airforce have wasted money on the IOC tejas ?

USA build hundreds of f35 before it reached FOC. And I'm not sure even now that all f35 version have foc? Can anyone confirm??

Just saying.

 

[binayak95]

USA build hundreds of f35 before it reached FOC. And I'm not sure even now that all f35 version have foc? Can anyone confirm??

Just saying.

Oh yes. The recently formed F35A aggressor squadron at Nellis is entirely made up from birds that cannot be upgraded to FOC standard - they are that different from the now production birds.

 

[karn]

USA build hundreds of f35 before it reached FOC. And I'm not sure even now that all f35 version have foc? Can anyone confirm??

Just saying.

So? How is that at all relevant.
An aircraft with a production run of 2400 gets hundreds of IOC aircraft. Tejas with a total production run of 240 including mk2 gets 20 IOC aircraft . Care to compare the IOC fleets of gripen and rafale and eurofighter ?

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

So? How is that at all relevant.
An aircraft with a production run of 2400 gets hundreds of IOC aircraft. Tejas with a total production run of 240 including mk2 gets 20 IOC aircraft . Care to compare the IOC fleets of gripen and rafale and eurofighter ?

Swedish AF ordered 204 Gripens in 3 batches. JAS 39A/B did not even have the same capabilities as that of Tejas Mk1 IOC, yet the Swedes ordered 110 jets of that type.

RAF ordered 50 odd Tranche 1 EF Typhoon with basic AD capabilities.

 

[karn]

Swedish AF ordered 204 Gripens in 3 batches. JAS 39A/B did not even have the same capabilities as that of Tejas Mk1 IOC, yet the Swedes ordered 110 jets of that type.

RAF ordered 50 odd Tranche 1 EF Typhoon with basic AD capabilities.

There is 15 year gap between when the gripen 1st flew and the tejas not sure how a straight up comparison of the 2 is relevant.
Not all of the tranch 1 Typhoons were only AD .. The RAF used only 2 IOC squadrons ... again for a fighter that has 500 + orders.
I don't see how ordering more IOC Tejas was going to help anyone.

 

[IndianHawk]

So? How is that at all relevant.
An aircraft with a production run of 2400 gets hundreds of IOC aircraft. Tejas with a total production run of 240 including mk2 gets 20 IOC aircraft . Care to compare the IOC fleets of gripen and rafale and eurofighter ?

It's to show that even IAF could have ordered 40 IOC and 60 FOC mk1 instead of only 20-20 of both which will allow us to retire all mig21 sq by now saving lives of piolets.

All fighters flew with many many issues in initial stages but there respectively airforce keep supporting them and ordering more numbers.

F35 still have tons of issues from software glitches to performance drop and maintenance.

One f35 just jumped in water from British carrier without even taking off.
Yet none of those issues are affecting it's orders from coming in consistently.

Same support should be given to indigenous platforms.

 

[karn]

It's to show that even IAF could have ordered 40 IOC and 60 FOC mk1 instead of only 20-20 of both which will allow us to retire all mig21 sq by now saving lives of piolets.

How ? How would it be possible to get 60 FOCs "by now"? 20 FOCs were only delivered by this year. And don't give the reason that HAL would magically increase production rate.
And forget the IOC.. it will never be used as a front line fighter .. IOC aircraft don't even have interchangeable parts among themselves.

All fighters flew with many many issues in initial stages but there respectively airforce keep supporting them and ordering more numbers.

And this is exactly what our airforce have done as well.

 

[MirageBlue]

3-4 squadrons pre FOC means 3-4 less squadrons post FOC .. and no.. IOC Tejas were not ready to do the work of mig 21 and mig 27... they had various issues only a few of which come out in news articles. The migs whatever their condition could be counted on the IOC Tejas could not .
Again why does the IAF have to saddled with aircraft it can't use in war ?
And ironing out of issues and building industrial base happened in any case with 20 aircraft.
None of the IOCs aircraft are gonna get patched up either . Why do you expect that 3-4 squadrons of IOC would get patched up .

Who said that none of the IOC Tejas Mk1s are going to be upgraded to FOC standard? Software upgrades will be done to bring them to generally similar level as the FOC jets.

Worldwide, this is exactly what is done in the name of iterative development. Rafale M were delivered at F1 std and then later on upgraded to F3 std, which was a HUGE upgrade. Initially delivered F-22s have been receiving upgrades to keep the earliest builds on levels almost similar to combat coded F-22s.

Tranche 1 Typhoons are the worst known case, where the cost of upgrading them to T3 was so high that it made the upgrade simply not worth it. But that is an indictment of the engg done to have such a wide difference between Tranche 1, Tranche 2 and Tranche 3.

IAF Tejas Mk1s of the IOC std. do not have such significant architecture or hardware differences in most cases to prevent them being upgraded to FOC std (exceptions exist, such as fuel lines for IFR). Even otherwise, they're a generation superior to the most advanced Bison.

 

[karn]

Who said that none of the IOC Tejas Mk1s are going to be upgraded to FOC standard? Software upgrades will be done to bring them to generally similar level as the FOC jets.

Worldwide, this is exactly what is done in the name of iterative development. Rafale M were delivered at F1 std and then later on upgraded to F3 std, which was a HUGE upgrade. Initially delivered F-22s have been receiving upgrades to keep the earliest builds on levels almost similar to combat coded F-22s.

Tranche 1 Typhoons are the worst known case, where the cost of upgrading them to T3 was so high that it made the upgrade simply not worth it. But that is an indictment of the engg done to have such a wide difference between Tranche 1, Tranche 2 and Tranche 3.

IAF Tejas Mk1s of the IOC std. do not have such significant architecture or hardware differences in most cases to prevent them being upgraded to FOC std (exceptions exist, such as fuel lines for IFR). Even otherwise, they're a generation superior to the most advanced Bison.

IOC standard is no standard at all .. They were almost custom built with limited interchangeable parts .. No Software upgrade is going to solve that .

 

[MirageBlue]

How ? How would it be possible to get 60 FOCs "by now"? 20 FOCs were only delivered by this year. And don't give the reason that HAL would magically increase production rate.
And forget the IOC.. it will never be used as a front line fighter .. IOC aircraft don't even have interchangeable parts among themselves.

And this is exactly what our airforce have done as well.

You only have an assembly line and an assembly rate per year to justify your order size. That is obvious common sense I thought.

Boeing sized it's B-737 MAX assembly line to produce 48 per month due to the backlog it had. It didn't do the same for the 747-8I or 747-8F since the order size was nowhere near the MAX order size. If the 747-8I/F had received huge orders, then Boeing would've set up another assembly line accordingly to serve the order.

if you got 20 IOC and 20 FOC fighters as your order over 10 years, and you expect that HAL will deliver them at 12-16 per year then the fault lies with you and your understanding, not with HAL or it's suppliers. Having a large order size is a GOOD PROBLEM for any manufacturer. It means larger revenues and a much larger production run which justifies increased investments in all the tools/infra/ppl that are needed to build and deliver airplanes.

As for your claim that IOC jets will not be used as front line fighters, it's gonna be proved wrong very soon.

 

[karn]

You only have an assembly line and an assembly rate per year to justify your order size. That is obvious common sense I thought.

Boeing sized it's B-737 MAX assembly line to produce 48 per month due to the backlog it had. It didn't do the same for the 747-8I or 747-8F since the order size was nowhere near the MAX order size. If the 747-8I/F had received huge orders, then Boeing would've set up another assembly line accordingly to serve the order.

if you got 20 IOC and 20 FOC fighters as your order over 10 years, and you expect that HAL will deliver them at 12-16 per year then the fault lies with you and your understanding, not with HAL or it's suppliers. Having a large order size is a GOOD PROBLEM for any manufacturer. It means larger revenues and a much larger production run which justifies increased investments in all the tools/infra/ppl that are needed to build and deliver airplanes.

And did HAL meet it production schedule on a single assembly line ? It isn't obvious or common sense its an assumption on your end that HAL "could" have added an extra assembly line and everything would be fine.

As for your claim that IOC jets will not be used as front line fighters, it's gonna be proved wrong very soon.

The FOC deliveries were completed this year and only now we get rumors' of tejas going for frontline duty ..
Naah I don;t think anything to the contrary is going to be proven. The maintenance overhead for IOC is too much just to operate them out of Sulur leave alone the frontline.

 

[MirageBlue]

IOC standard is no standard at all .. They were almost custom built with limited interchangeable parts .. No Software upgrade is going to solve that .

MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-29 parts were also built with such massive tolerances that half the time the panels wouldn't fit on each other. If you've ever seen one from up close you'd be shocked at the quality of the build. It was that bad. How often has that prevented any of these from being based at FABs or used in war?

It's a common issue with even F-4s built by more tech advanced OEMs in the 1970s. As told by Ian Black, no 2 F-4s of the RAF were the same. They improved their manufacturing processes and HAL has been using manufacturing processes it has learnt from license manufacture of Jaguars which was still not at the same level as what leading OEMs used for 4th gen fighters.

But now the difference is big. The tolerances are extremely tight, there is no issue related to interchangeability.