ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

MirageBlue

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And did HAL meet it production schedule on a single assembly line ? It isn't obvious or common sense its an assumption on your end that HAL "could" have added an extra assembly line and everything would be fine.

The FOC deliveries were completed this year and only now we get rumors' of tejas going for frontline duty ..
Naah I don;t think anything to the contrary is going to be proven. The maintenance overhead for IOC is too much just to operate them out of Sulur leave alone the frontline.
I don't really care for what you think. You're free to believe whatever you believe. The facts on the ground will not change because you think otherwise.
 

karn

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MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27, MiG-29 parts were also built with such massive tolerances that half the time the panels wouldn't fit on each other. If you've ever seen one from up close you'd be shocked at the quality of the build. It was that bad. How often has that prevented any of these from being based at FABs or used in war?
The Migs are only their way out . Why do you want to saddle the IAF with another not panel fitting aircraft for the next few decades ?
[OUOTE]
It's a common issue with even F-4s built by more tech advanced OEMs in the 1970s. As told by Ian Black, no 2 F-4s of the RAF were the same. They improved their manufacturing processes and HAL has been using manufacturing processes it has learnt from license manufacture of Jaguars which was still not at the same level as what leading OEMs used for 4th gen fighters.
[/QUOTE]
And this is the case with the tejas as well . They got to learn on the prototypes and the IOC . The got their process down with the FOC.
But now the difference is big. The tolerances are extremely tight, there is no issue related to interchangeability.
Oh but there is .The IOCs need constant handholding from HAL to keep em flying. Its why many IOCs stay at HAL in bangalore despite having a homebase of Sulur.
 

karn

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I don't really care for what you think. You're free to believe whatever you believe. The facts on the ground will not change because you think otherwise.
Lol I dont't care what you think either .. When what I say happens the usual RR of of blaming the IAF starts.
 

MirageBlue

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Just posting an article from LIMA 2019, when the IOC jets made their first international appearance at LIMA 2019, led by Grp Cpt Samarth Dhankar who was CO of the No.45 squadron.

Group Captain Samrath Dhankhar of the Indian air force has earned a place in aviation history, as the commanding officer of its 45 Sqn (“The Flying Daggers”): the first to operate the Hindustan Aeronautics Tejas Mk1 fighter.

In another historical footnote, he and a fellow pilot brought two examples of the combat aircraft to the Langkawi InternationalMaritime and Aerospace (LIMA) exhibition in Malaysia. This was the first deployment of the indigenous-developed type to Southeast Asia, and also the first time that an air force pilot had flown the type at a foreign air show.

Ostensibly the visit was made in support of Kuala Lumpur’s nascent requirement for a light combat aircraft. Yet it also underlined India’s increased confidence to show off the locally-made fighter to the world.

““We’re here to promote, but not to compete,” Dhankhar told FlightGlobal during the show. “The competition will be for the OEM to handle.”

The two jets’ journey to Langkawi from an air base near the city of Coimbatore took them northwards along the subcontinent’s east coast to another base near Kolkata. Although the optimum altitude for this transit was 33,000ft, the two-ship formation flew at 27,500ft, because separation rules at this altitude are more relaxed.

After that stop, the pair flew to Yangon in Myanmar and then onwards to Langkawi. A support aircraft flew ahead of the formation to provide logistical support and to greet the fighters on their arrival. At the show, the team found itself operating from a small tent next to the flightline. This was a big change from February’s Aero India event near Bengaluru, where the same team operated from the sprawling Yelahanka air base.

Prior to operating the Tejas, Dhankhar spent most of his career in the cockpit of the Mikoyan MiG-21 "Bison"; a heavily upgraded version of the Cold War stalwart and still a major asset in the Indian air force. He has also spent some time in the Sukhoi Su-30MKI, although he has not flown it operationally.

“The Tejas is far better in terms of manoeuvrability, as well as the systems on board,” he says. “In every sense it is better. It is clearly demarcated as a different generation.”


Showing off this manoeuvrability was the aim of Dhankhar’s display routine, which he also performed during the Aero India show. This is designed to highlight the jet’s fly-by-wire capability through key manoeuvres such as the main radius turn and negative-g turn – the latter being rarely performed.

The Tejas Mk1 is powered by a single GE Aviation F404-IN20 engine with an afterburner. The examples operated by 45 Sqn are in the initial operational clearance (IOC) configuration. Follow-on jets will be in the final operational clearance (FOC) standard.

So far, 45 Sqn has received 12 IOC-specification aircraft, with another four to be delivered soon. Next year it will realise its full strength of 20 jets, when it receives four two-seat examples in the FOC configuration.

The main difference between the two standards is software. FOC-model aircraft will be cleared to 8g, while current IOC examples are limited to 6g. In addition, FOC aircraft will be equipped for air-to-air refuelling. Once deliveries of FOC aircraft begin, existing IOC jets will be upgraded to the enhanced configuration.

Dhankhar is clearly pleased with the Tejas. He praises its agility and says the type's g onset rates are “very comfortable”. He also believes that the type's control laws have been well implemented.


“It responds to your inputs in the entire envelope very well,” he says. “It's not as if you need to be at certain speeds to get the maximum out of it. At any speed it gives you whatever you demand.”

He also appreciates the safety factors built into the jet, in that it is impossible to depart from the approved flight envelope limits. This makes the aircraft “very, very safe,” he says. “This is a very positive thing, but at the same time this can be marginally negative because at times, if I would like to exceed the aircraft’s limits, I can't do that,” he adds.

On the aircraft’s human-machine interface, he feels that everything is exactly where a pilot will expect to find it, with an intuitive layout that eases cockpit familiarisation. Apart from the master arm switch, virtually everything necessary to operate the aircraft is located on the throttle or control column, in line with modern hands on throttle and stick design methodology.

Although Dhankhar’s aerial display, performed with white smoke trailing from wing-mounted pods, was as powerful as any modern fighter performance, he stresses that air shows are not his main line of work.

“My primary job is to exploit the aircraft operationally. Displays as such are a side role for me. If it is required I'll do it, but otherwise the OEM does it on its own… I'm not a display specialist, but I'm capable of doing it,” he says.”

As an example of this operational focus, Dhankhar notes that he has had the opportunity to fire or drop every weapon the Tejas has been cleared to carry: both air-to-air and ground-attack munitions. He feels the accuracy is excellent, and that the HMI makes it very easy to employ all weapons across the envelope. He believes that the Tejas’s helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to target weapons without pointing the aircraft's nose at the target, offers far greater freedom than the MiG-21, and is “much more advanced as compared with the Su-30”.

Given the advanced state of technologies such as beyond visual-range (BVR) missiles and helmet-mounted cueing, intuitively this would mean that a fighter’s manoeuvrability would become less of a priority. Dhankhar, however, says that a jet’s ability to perform aggressive manoeuvres remains a crucial consideration, because sooner or later a “merge” will occur and a pilot will find themselves in close quarters with enemy aircraft.[/b]

“There are situations where you need the g,” he says. “Most of the time you can rely on sensors and BVR weapons, and you do not need to engage in close combat. But you should not be a sitting duck in case somebody closes in for some reason. Merges do take place despite whatever type of sensors you have. There are times when the criticality of the mission is high, and you need to take certain risks. In those missions you tend to go further, and the merges take place. If you are capable in terms of pulling more g, you may turn these situations to your advantage. That is what I feel as a fighter pilot.”

...

“Because of the jet’s architecture it’s very easy to upgrade,” says Dhankhar. “Having flown this aircraft, I can say it has a great future.”
But of course, some civvie named Karn knows better than the CO of No.45 Squadron. Right?
 

karn

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Just posting an article from LIMA 2019, when the IOC jets made their first international appearance at LIMA 2019, led by Grp Cpt Samarth Dhankar who was CO of the No.45 squadron.



But of course, some civvie named Karn knows better than the CO of No.45 Squadron. Right?
Sure buddy we got many such sound bytes from test pilots over the years can you really expect a test pilot to do anything other than marketing for a platform going for an international show .
You dont need to listen to the civvie karn you can just listen to these gentlemen.



And 2019 was not the 1st international showing for the tejas . The 1st one was in 2016 to Bahrain . Guess what was the status then. The ability of tejas to do airshows was never in question.
 
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MirageBlue

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IOC Tejas Mk1 is, as per Grp Capt Dhankar, CO of No.45 Squadron and experienced Bison pilot:

1- Far better in terms of maneuverability than Bison
2- Far better in terms of systems on board than Bison
3- In every sense it is better: clearly demarcated as a different generation than Bison
4- Main difference between IOC and FOC standard is software: the g limit was 6G for IOC fighters and 8G for FOC fighters. Other primary difference was IFR
5- Dhankhar is clearly pleased with the Tejas. He praises its agility and says the type's g onset rates are “very comfortable”. He also believes that the type's control laws have been well implemented. “It responds to your inputs in the entire envelope very well,” (every test pilot who has flown it compliments it's FCS as being world class)
6- He also appreciates the safety factors built into the jet, in that it is impossible to depart from the approved flight envelope limits. This makes the aircraft “very, very safe,” he says. “This is a very positive thing, but at the same time this can be marginally negative because at times, if I would like to exceed the aircraft’s limits, I can't do that,” he adds.
7- Praises the cockpit layout as being very intuitive (after all it was designed by IAF pilots with experience on both Russian and Western types - so best of both worlds)
8- As an example of this operational focus, Dhankhar notes that he has had the opportunity to fire or drop every weapon the Tejas has been cleared to carry: both air-to-air and ground-attack munitions. He feels the accuracy is excellent, and that the HMI makes it very easy to employ all weapons across the envelope. He believes that the Tejas’s helmet-mounted cueing system, which allows the pilot to target weapons without pointing the aircraft's nose at the target, offers far greater freedom than the MiG-21, and is “much more advanced as compared with the Su-30”.
9-
“Because of the jet’s architecture it’s very easy to upgrade,” says Dhankhar. “Having flown this aircraft, I can say it has a great future.”
 

MirageBlue

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Swedish AF ordered 204 Gripens in 3 batches. JAS 39A/B did not even have the same capabilities as that of Tejas Mk1 IOC, yet the Swedes ordered 110 jets of that type.

RAF ordered 50 odd Tranche 1 EF Typhoon with basic AD capabilities.
And the best part is that the Swedish AF went on to upgrade the vast majority of it's Gripen A/Bs into Gripen C/Ds.

It is only the IAF that will refuse to go with incremental capabilities so as to speed up the timeline for getting a fighter or helicopter into service.

Even the PAF has to be complimented for the way they handled the JF-17 with Block 1, 2 and 3. Block 1s were capable of only dropping dumb bombs and carried only WVR weapons, but they were safer than the F-6 and A-5s and squadron numbers are important, so they were inducted.

But the IAF? No, we want almost EVERYTHING or else we'll stick to our 50 year old Bisons, thank you.

Let's see what they do with the Tejas Mk2..wait for it to reach FOC and then place orders or go with the 6 squadron order when it crosses IOC.
 

MirageBlue

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Regarding the criticism about panels not being interchangeable on the IOC Tejas Mk1s, that was addressed a LONG time ago, in 2017 itself.

So in this respect as well, the Tejas Mk1 IOC and FOC were far far superior to what it was to replace.

link

He says the LCA Division developed ICY (interchangeability) tools for all 147 panels and for 830 pipelines out of 934 pipelines within the build of first seven SP Tejas aircraft itself. “This is a huge shift compared to any other projects in HAL, that too at such short span of time after the release of RSD (Release of Service Documents). Even now, only concept of replaceable pipes is existing in other projects. LCA has gone far ahead in the area of
ICY compliance through the dedicated efforts of its tooling department,” claims Sridharan.
And the ICY interchangeability standards were being put in place from the SP-3 onwards itself! So what was true of the LSPs was clearly not true for the IOC fighters. All the criticism directed towards IOC Tejas Mk1 fighters have ICY interchangeability issues was just plain ignorance of the real facts.

link

The SP-3 comes with more value additions with around 340 pipelines and 50 panels now achieving ICY or interchangeability standards. (ICY ensures quick replacement of a component without any design changes affecting operational performance.) “In the next aircraft, around 100 panels and 700-plus pipelines will be in the ICY standards,” says an official.
 

pipebomb

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And the best part is that the Swedish AF went on to upgrade the vast majority of it's Gripen A/Bs into Gripen C/Ds.

It is only the IAF that will refuse to go with incremental capabilities so as to speed up the timeline for getting a fighter or helicopter into service.

Even the PAF has to be complimented for the way they handled the JF-17 with Block 1, 2 and 3. Block 1s were capable of only dropping dumb bombs and carried only WVR weapons, but they were safer than the F-6 and A-5s and squadron numbers are important, so they were inducted.

But the IAF? No, we want almost EVERYTHING or else we'll stick to our 50 year old Bisons, thank you.

Let's see what they do with the Tejas Mk2..wait for it to reach FOC and then place orders or go with the 6 squadron order when it crosses IOC.
They are not ordering 6 squadron but projecting a need for 6 squadron, very different thing imho.

ACM should be asked how are they planning to reach projected 42 squadron strength ( 42 squadron is quite conservative imho).

If ACM had said that their is need for 10-12 squadron of mk2, it would have make sense. That is because if mk2 came short in its user trail(hypothetically) IAF can simply walk away, no one would have pointed fingers at them.

Or if an order of 6 squadron of mk2 with an commitment for further follow on order, that would have been great as well.

But the talk of projected need of 6 squadron is quite ominous and concerning to say the least
 

IndianHawk

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How ? How would it be possible to get 60 FOCs "by now"? 20 FOCs were only delivered by this year. And don't give the reason that HAL would magically increase production rate.
And forget the IOC.. it will never be used as a front line fighter .. IOC aircraft don't even have interchangeable parts among themselves.

And this is exactly what our airforce have done as well.
More orders will result in more investment in production . How do you think they are building 100s of f35 per year?? How many f35 will be produced for a order of 20+ 20 per year?? Perhaps none.

Also your repeated post bashing IOC and saddling iaf are not accurate since all IOC are upgradable to foc and further mk1a level barrier air refueling probe.
 

IndianHawk

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They are not ordering 6 squadron but projecting a need for 6 squadron, very different thing imho.

ACM should be asked how are they planning to reach projected 42 squadron strength ( 42 squadron is quite conservative imho).

If ACM had said that their is need for 10-12 squadron of mk2, it would have make sense. That is because if mk2 came short in its user trail(hypothetically) IAF can simply walk away, no one would have pointed fingers at them.

Or if an order of 6 squadron of mk2 with an commitment for further follow on order, that would have been great as well.

But the talk of projected need of 6 squadron is quite ominous and concerning to say the least
ACM has only one thing on his mind . 114 imported jets. Only after that he will worry about anything else. It seems.
 

Javelin_Sam

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Just posting an article from LIMA 2019, when the IOC jets made their first international appearance at LIMA 2019, led by Grp Cpt Samarth Dhankar who was CO of the No.45 squadron.



But of course, some civvie named Karn knows better than the CO of No.45 Squadron. Right?
Don't argue with these karn type handles. They have an agenda. The first squadron of mix of IOC and and FOC squadrons will move this year to a frontline base, right at adversary's gate. Yes IAF could've ordered more IOC/FOC earlier. There are types of issues that can be worked on and optimized only once large scale production kicks up. Anyone with good experience as a product manager in industrial production ecosystem will relate. For that optimization, production has to happen. If one is waiting to place large orders after all these issues are solved with a few limited number of production, then that is never going to happen. This is true for even a MSME scale machinary having anywhere around 100 parts. An aircraft is an assembly of 1000s of such parts coming from 100s of suppliers. Each supplier in turn will face same issues and have to do the same process.
 

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