ADA DRDO and HAL Delays a threat to National Security

ADA DRDO and HAL Delays a threat to National Security


  • Total voters
    21
  • Poll closed .
Status
Not open for further replies.

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,021
Likes
11,366
Country flag
More then ADA, HAL and DRDO I would held responsible multitude of other factors including political bureau and armed force themselves for these delays. The biggest fault of DRDO among all is their big mouth.
 

piKacHHu

Regular Member
Joined
Sep 5, 2015
Messages
315
Likes
933
Country flag
It isn't that DRDO and HAL lack talented manpower and dearth of resources; but the bulky and unwieldy bureaucratic nature make them less efficient. By the time the user requirements are finalised and technology development goes to prototype stage, the requirement itself becomes redundant and obsolete. DRDO for instance, is responsible for developing ballistic missiles to mosquito repellent through myriad of its labs spread across the country. So it's the inertia in bringing change and competence to every level which is too big and it takes time for transformation. It is also to be noted that DRDO at its days of conception was mandated for import substitution of the armaments used by India armed forces so there are legacy issues as well because for past decades they were busy in learning something already in use and then reverse engineering it for local production. Now people expect them to create state-of-the-art technology out of scratch !!
Despite that, Major shortcomings for DRDO can be broadly stated as:
1. Lack of focus: A single organisation responsible for all developments whether its tanks, jets, missiles or even combat clothes, medical syringes, & water filters.
2. Lack of Funding: Defence funding for development is meagre for DRDO as compared to their counterparts in other countries. It's like expecting moon from them for no cost,of course, scientists won't sell their houses for funding the projects!!
3. Vague GSQRs Drafting: The requirement from the users should account for the development time and it should be futuristic enough to avoid obsolescence. But alas! it rarely happens in Indian context.
4. Lack of Accountability: A project that has yielded nothing but dud missiles and jet fighters can still generate lots of journal publications. So in the end, this comes to rescue of the scientists to save their skin, besides that, Import options are always available. So its a win-win situation for everyone in the establishment but a lose-lose condition for the country as a whole.
5. Lack of Project Management Skills: One size fits all culture which derives from civil services and bureaucracy, it has also percolated down to the DPSUs as well where a scientist responsible for a project has to do everything like procurement to preparing minutes of the meeting except the research part.
6. Lack of Industrial Base: For this you can't blame DRDO and ADA, but if there is a situation where no domestic vendor is able to provide you the desired precision manufacturing/material quality, then you have to develop everything by your own and that contributes to more delay in the project.

You don't need to go far for looking the solution at hand; All we need to emulate the ISRO model which has since its dissociation for Atomic Energy Commission, grown leaps and bounds ahead due to its focused mandate.
However, there is a silver lining ahead. NITI Aayog has recently changed the financial aspects of research funding in DPSU taking account of Quantum of Deliverables and Near Term/Long Term Mile stones. We hope to see some progress in next 5 years for the critical projects. What is further expected from this government to further segregate the DRDO into separate and autonomous centres for defence technology development with clear mandate.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
More then ADA, HAL and DRDO I would held responsible multitude of other factors including political bureau and armed force themselves for these delays. The biggest fault of DRDO among all is their big mouth.
I am not gonna defend nor i Can defend any of the parties involved.
DRDO ADA and HAL have not fulfilled the role they were required to fulfill.

They were set up to make India Self Sufficient but till date they have Failed to live up to it.

Big Mouth is not the real fault or issue here ..... They are unprofessional and irresponsible Name one private organisation which would have tolerated such nuisance.

Being in the Private Industry I know how to are made to make deliveries.

ADA DRDO HAL should be privatized to get results.

These Babus do nothing throughout the year and when at the end report is asked they simply come up with some lame excuse .They know that the person asking for progress is not serious at all......
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
It isn't that DRDO and HAL lack talented manpower and dearth of resources; but the bulky and unwieldy bureaucratic nature make them less efficient. By the time the user requirements are finalised and technology development goes to prototype stage, the requirement itself becomes redundant and obsolete. DRDO for instance, is responsible for developing ballistic missiles to mosquito repellent through myriad of its labs spread across the country. So it's the inertia in bringing change and competence to every level which is too big and it takes time for transformation. It is also to be noted that DRDO at its days of conception was mandated for import substitution of the armaments used by India armed forces so there are legacy issues as well because for past decades they were busy in learning something already in use and then reverse engineering it for local production. Now people expect them to create state-of-the-art technology out of scratch !!
Despite that, Major shortcomings for DRDO can be broadly stated as:
1. Lack of focus: A single organisation responsible for all developments whether its tanks, jets, missiles or even combat clothes, medical syringes, & water filters.
2. Lack of Funding: Defence funding for development is meagre for DRDO as compared to their counterparts in other countries. It's like expecting moon from them for no cost,of course, scientists won't sell their houses for funding the projects!!
3. Vague GSQRs Drafting: The requirement from the users should account for the development time and it should be futuristic enough to avoid obsolescence. But alas! it rarely happens in Indian context.
4. Lack of Accountability: A project that has yielded nothing but dud missiles and jet fighters can still generate lots of journal publications. So in the end, this comes to rescue of the scientists to save their skin, besides that, Import options are always available. So its a win-win situation for everyone in the establishment but a lose-lose condition for the country as a whole.
5. Lack of Project Management Skills: One size fits all culture which derives from civil services and bureaucracy, it has also percolated down to the DPSUs as well where a scientist responsible for a project has to do everything like procurement to preparing minutes of the meeting except the research part.
6. Lack of Industrial Base: For this you can't blame DRDO and ADA, but if there is a situation where no domestic vendor is able to provide you the desired precision manufacturing/material quality, then you have to develop everything by your own and that contributes to more delay in the project.

You don't need to go far for looking the solution at hand; All we need to emulate the ISRO model which has since its dissociation for Atomic Energy Commission, grown leaps and bounds ahead due to its focused mandate.
However, there is a silver lining ahead. NITI Aayog has recently changed the financial aspects of research funding in DPSU taking account of Quantum of Deliverables and Near Term/Long Term Mile stones. We hope to see some progress in next 5 years for the critical projects. What is further expected from this government to further segregate the DRDO into separate and autonomous centres for defence technology development with clear mandate.
This is what they also put in there defense this neutralizes everything and leaves no scope of accountability.

I do not believe that 30 years is not sufficient time to overcome any of the reason explained by you in the post above.

Once you have committed for a job and taken ownership of it one cannot blame anyone for it.
Its your responsibility to get the things done....

ADA DRDO and HAL are unprofessional and irresponsible bunch of people risking the security of the entire nation.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
I think @Pulkit can himself pull out the defence industry from this trouble. Dismiss HAL and DRDO.:biggrin2:
If I could I would have definitely taken done that.....
It takes nothing more than will to achieve something.

HAL DRDO ADA needs to improve there working which is a reality .
How that can be done is the matter of debate?

If I could do anything I would have definitely made there wages directly proportional to the outcome.....

failed Project You loose a good portion of your salary.
Delay You loose some portion of your salary.

Its similar to what in Private inductry Bonus are distributed High performer get more than others........
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,021
Likes
11,366
Country flag
I am not gonna defend nor i Can defend any of the parties involved.
DRDO ADA and HAL have not fulfilled the role they were required to fulfill.

They were set up to make India Self Sufficient but till date they have Failed to live up to it.

Big Mouth is not the real fault or issue here ..... They are unprofessional and irresponsible Name one private organisation which would have tolerated such nuisance.

Being in the Private Industry I know how to are made to make deliveries.

ADA DRDO HAL should be privatized to get results.

These Babus do nothing throughout the year and when at the end report is asked they simply come up with some lame excuse .They know that the person asking for progress is not serious at all......
Face some hard facts. What are we basically doing for last 70 years after independence?

As @piKacHHu had mentioned, during Nehruvian era DRDO was conceptualized and instead of letting them work as per their name, Defence Research and Development, they were made to sit on Russian lap and tasked to make licensed derivative of Russian and WWII era weaponry. Where was Research and Development part in it? All it did was just license production and screw driver job.

Now lets come to second part, across the world with leading arms developers see how things are made to work. They don't work on a demand and deliver type of mindset like in India. They do study and develop and then create the demand. But here its always the demand first and then its study and development and by the time product comes out, its near obsolete in real terms. You can't simply blame an organization who is living on pennies for that. Its there in mindset and wrong idea at inception itself.

Lets have a look at the products. DRDO, OFB had always been asked to and tasked with creating licensed version of small arms. Be it the WWII era Lee Enfield or 50's SLR. Only in late 80 they have been asked to come out with any inhouse design. Result of that is INSAS. But look how things worked for it. Immediately after its induction and Kargil episode, INSAS is pitched against and compared to products created by manufacturers who have atleast 100 years of weapon manufacturing experience. Its just like comparing the arithmetic or writing skill of a toddler with that of a student in secondary school. Same was the case with ADA and HAL. They have not even been given half a chance to grow and instead burdened to come out with state of the art product each and every time. Take the case of F-35 in US. The design submitted by Boeing, a 100+ year old company with equal experience, has been rejected. Thus this mean Boeing is good for nothing in designing aircraft? But if it would have been in India, HAL, ADA, DRDO who were formed just 50 years back and been entrusted with coming out with a 4th gen fighter design just 30 years back would have been prosecuted and hanged in popular media.

Designing and development are qualities which need extensive time frame to mature. Just a time frame of 30 or 50 years is not enough for you to attain superiority in knowledge. Its not right to start comparing some thing like HAL, ADA or DRDO with that of Boeing, LM or Baretta.

Let me give you one simple example of how our mindset works here. We are discussing and sentencing these organizations for not coming up with state of the art systems like Tank, Firearm, Jets, Artillery and all. But we always do stay clear when it comes to Ballistic missiles. Why? Why we forget the work done by these organizations in this field? Its simple, because you can't purchase anything like Ballistic missile. For everything else, there is import lobby. So bash these organizations as much as you like for rest of all. If you want to bash it, why didn't you bashed them for coming out with 150km of liquid fueled Phritvi I? 150km is range which is covered by advanced rocket artillery. Why didn't anyone bashed them then? Why we always cherished them when they progressively made advance in Ballistic Missile system?
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
Face some hard facts. What are we basically doing for last 70 years after independence?
Wasting Hard earned Money of tax payers.

As @piKacHHu had mentioned, during Nehruvian era DRDO was conceptualized and instead of letting them work as per their name, Defence Research and Development, they were made to sit on Russian lap and tasked to make licensed derivative of Russian and WWII era weaponry. Where was Research and Development part in it? All it did was just license production and screw driver job.
yes we did that . I believe before you develop something you need to know the basics . I will call it the learning Phase Though we are still stuck into that phase only.
Now lets come to second part, across the world with leading arms developers see how things are made to work. They don't work on a demand and deliver type of mindset like in India. They do study and develop and then create the demand. But here its always the demand first and then its study and development and by the time product comes out, its near obsolete in real terms. You can't simply blame an organization who is living on pennies for that. Its there in mindset and wrong idea at inception itself.
I will re Phrase that....

They innovate and judge the requirement in the future way before the user has imagined for it .
In this way requirement automatically gets created and they are ready for it....

But here there is no innovation.....

They believe in simply doing what is being asked for and no innovation at all...

Its the mentality and the mind set.....

Lets have a look at the products. DRDO, OFB had always been asked to and tasked with creating licensed version of small arms. Be it the WWII era Lee Enfield or 50's SLR. Only in late 80 they have been asked to come out with any inhouse design. Result of that is INSAS. But look how things worked for it. Immediately after its induction and Kargil episode, INSAS is pitched against and compared to products created by manufacturers who have atleast 100 years of weapon manufacturing experience. Its just like comparing the arithmetic or writing skill of a toddler with that of a student in secondary school. Same was the case with ADA and HAL. They have not even been given half a chance to grow and instead burdened to come out with state of the art product each and every time. Take the case of F-35 in US. The design submitted by Boeing, a 100+ year old company with equal experience, has been rejected. Thus this mean Boeing is good for nothing in designing aircraft? But if it would have been in India, HAL, ADA, DRDO who were formed just 50 years back and been entrusted with coming out with a 4th gen fighter design just 30 years back would have been prosecuted and hanged in popular media.
i will like to know what is the success percentage of DRDO ADA HAL all together .
How many times have they stuck to there own deadlines?

Boeing gave a good competition di they or not .... yes they lost ...Competition ..... Here they DRDO have a monopoly hence there is no drive to achieve new heights....

Designing and development are qualities which need extensive time frame to mature. Just a time frame of 30 or 50 years is not enough for you to attain superiority in knowledge. Its not right to start comparing some thing like HAL, ADA or DRDO with that of Boeing, LM or Baretta.
no one is comparing them to the giants.....
but yes Timeframe of 30-50 years is more than sufficient .
If ISRO can achieve something why cannot they(Not comparing but yes ISRO Did it and in style).....

Had this been given to a private industry I can bet the outcome would have been different.

I know how private sector works when something new challenge is given to them and i have the exp to have done Training in Govt industry so I know there approach aswell....

Let me give you one simple example of how our mindset works here. We are discussing and sentencing these organizations for not coming up with state of the art systems like Tank, Firearm, Jets, Artillery and all. But we always do stay clear when it comes to Ballistic missiles. Why? Why we forget the work done by these organizations in this field? Its simple, because you can't purchase anything like Ballistic missile. For everything else, there is import lobby. So bash these organizations as much as you like for rest of all. If you want to bash it, why didn't you bashed them for coming out with 150km of liquid fueled Phritvi I? 150km is range which is covered by advanced rocket artillery. Why didn't anyone bashed them then? Why we always cherished them when they progressively made advance in Ballistic Missile system?

I am not taking away the credit they deserve if they have done something good .....
But that cannot be an excuse to what they failed to achieve.....
 

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
3,821
Likes
14,427
Country flag
The biggest problem with all these government run organizations like HAL, DRDO, ADA and for that matter any PSU is they have and employ Ambedkar chaap guys coming from reservation quota and not on merits, all the toppers and people with brains move out of India since they are not employed by these institutions which take the government mandated parasites.

Even if someone having top brains is patriotic and wants to work in these organizations for lower wages they won't employ as he/she might be from upper casts. No doubt all government owned companies are called PSU and people employed by them are PISU (parasites), living on tax payers money.
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,021
Likes
11,366
Country flag
Wasting Hard earned Money of tax payers.
Not their fault and its not a leisure for them.


yes we did that . I believe before you develop something you need to know the basics . I will call it the learning Phase Though we are still stuck into that phase only.
Learning phase is the longest phase. You are simply studying others work and trying to make good out of it. When you are into research, this is the most important phase and its the most time consuming as well. You yourself is reading some others doing in your field of work, but you can't say that you mastered it.


I will re Phrase that....

They innovate and judge the requirement in the future way before the user has imagined for it .
In this way requirement automatically gets created and they are ready for it....

But here there is no innovation.....

They believe in simply doing what is being asked for and no innovation at all...

Its the mentality and the mind set.....
Did anyone at the very first invested in preparing a fertile ground for innovation? What were our priorities when it came to R&D in defence sector? They are a part of government mechanism. They would work as per government, not independently.



i will like to know what is the success percentage of DRDO ADA HAL all together .
How many times have they stuck to there own deadlines?

Boeing gave a good competition di they or not .... yes they lost ...Competition ..... Here they DRDO have a monopoly hence there is no drive to achieve new heights....
You asking about success rate of DRDO, HAL and ADA all together? Then its 100%. Show me any other plane in aviation history which has been able to keep clean records in its development flight trials for 15 long years. Show me any other helicopter which has came up such a long distance irrespective of the fact that it has near zero export order and faced so much ridicule not only off shore, but in home ground too. Boeing almost sold his company when his designed planes were rejected.

Now, its not fault of DRDO, HAL or ADA that they have monopoly. They didn't stopped anyone or government to take up or encourage research in field of aviation.


no one is comparing them to the giants.....
but yes Timeframe of 30-50 years is more than sufficient .
If ISRO can achieve something why cannot they(Not comparing but yes ISRO Did it and in style).....

Had this been given to a private industry I can bet the outcome would have been different.

I know how private sector works when something new challenge is given to them and i have the exp to have done Training in Govt industry so I know there approach aswell....
If we haven't been comparing them with giants, then this thread would not have existed. 30 to 50 years time frame is nothing. For a simple ball point pen to reach its current design, it took a century. As @piKacHHu already mentioned, reason behind success of ISRO is in its unilateral thinking. They do work in a single frame of mind and all there labour is directed towards that only. ISRO is even beating NASA in satellite launching, but it doesn't mean ISRO is better then NASA in all perspective. Where is ISRO in Human Space Flight index whereas CNSA, established in 1993 had already accomplished it. What is the reason that an establishment which came into being 2 decades late then ISRO is ahead of ISRO? Isn't ISRO thriving on tax payers money?

You are talking about private company? Why is TATA kestrel still there with TATA? Why is IA still stuck with BMP?

I too work with Pvt sector and my client list does include Govt sector too. Govt. sector works as a part of whole government machine. It would work the way you would make it work.




I am not taking away the credit they deserve if they have done something good .....
But that cannot be an excuse to what they failed to achieve.....
Now see, the fault doesn't entirely lies on these organizations. We have done our basics wrong in the very first place. Why do you think Pvt players have never been interested in defence field? For example lets take the case of Assault rifle manufacturing in India. A prototype needs 3 to 4 years time for testing alone. Now just think about it. In country where you have one of the coldest region in world on one end, one of the hottest region in world on another end, the most wettest region on one far end and one of the most saline region in another end. Don't you think that with all these varied geographical entity we could do a hot weather trial and cold weather trial testing in one single year or 2 year at max? Is it the fault of these organizations that it is not been done?

Unless and untill our whole structure and mechanism changes, you can't expect just a part to change. You can't even expect the pvt firms to come to your rescue if we don't change our overall working perspective.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
Not their fault and its not a leisure for them.
Not My words But our Prime Minister also has said that they have "Chalta Hai" attitude .

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pm-modi-at-drdo-flays-chalta-hai-attitude-650810

Learning phase is the longest phase. You are simply studying others work and trying to make good out of it. When you are into research, this is the most important phase and its the most time consuming as well. You yourself is reading some others doing in your field of work, but you can't say that you mastered it.
Learning Phase depends on the the ability of the learner to grasp all the things we cannot wait for them to get comfortable.....
By the time they get comfortable they retire taking along with them all there
learning.They have no pressure to deliver .Once that pressure is there they wont take this long to master any technology.

I am not taking about months or weeks as i know i does take years ....


Did anyone at the very first invested in preparing a fertile ground for innovation? What were our priorities when it came to R&D in defence sector? They are a part of government mechanism. They would work as per government, not independently.
They had all the time in the world starting 1958 .
You have to display your ability and expertise for others to have faith in you and invest in you.

In case it would have been private industry it would have been closed given there performance.
Its a govt entity hence they are surviving.

You asking about success rate of DRDO, HAL and ADA all together? Then its 100%. Show me any other plane in aviation history which has been able to keep clean records in its development flight trials for 15 long years. Show me any other helicopter which has came up such a long distance irrespective of the fact that it has near zero export order and faced so much ridicule not only off shore, but in home ground too. Boeing almost sold his company when his designed planes were rejected.
I am a Tejas Fan and they are killing the program.
They were not on time...They did not work with the user properly.
They were clueless about the requirements of IAF.
They lacked management.
Now, its not fault of DRDO, HAL or ADA that they have monopoly. They didn't stopped anyone or government to take up or encourage research in field of aviation.
Governments did not let anyone get into defense agreed .... But they were teh ones who mis used this to there advantage............
If we haven't been comparing them with giants, then this thread would not have existed. 30 to 50 years time frame is nothing. For a simple ball point pen to reach its current design, it took a century. As @piKacHHu already mentioned, reason behind success of ISRO is in its unilateral thinking. They do work in a single frame of mind and all there labour is directed towards that only. ISRO is even beating NASA in satellite launching, but it doesn't mean ISRO is better then NASA in all perspective. Where is ISRO in Human Space Flight index whereas CNSA, established in 1993 had already accomplished it. What is the reason that an establishment which came into being 2 decades late then ISRO is ahead of ISRO? Isn't ISRO thriving on tax payers money?

You are talking about private company? Why is TATA kestrel still there with TATA? Why is IA still stuck with BMP?

I too work with Pvt sector and my client list does include Govt sector too. Govt. sector works as a part of whole government machine. It would work the way you would make it work.






Now see, the fault doesn't entirely lies on these organizations. We have done our basics wrong in the very first place. Why do you think Pvt players have never been interested in defence field? For example lets take the case of Assault rifle manufacturing in India. A prototype needs 3 to 4 years time for testing alone. Now just think about it. In country where you have one of the coldest region in world on one end, one of the hottest region in world on another end, the most wettest region on one far end and one of the most saline region in another end. Don't you think that with all these varied geographical entity we could do a hot weather trial and cold weather trial testing in one single year or 2 year at max? Is it the fault of these organizations that it is not been done?

Unless and untill our whole structure and mechanism changes, you can't expect just a part to change. You can't even expect the pvt firms to come to your rescue if we don't change our overall working perspective.
The government now has changed and I hope they are able to remove this Chalta hai Attitude from there DNA..........................
 

Chinmoy

Senior Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Messages
6,021
Likes
11,366
Country flag
Not My words But our Prime Minister also has said that they have "Chalta Hai" attitude .

http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pm-modi-at-drdo-flays-chalta-hai-attitude-650810
http://www.ndtv.com/india-news/pm-modi-at-drdo-flays-chalta-hai-attitude-650810

You are just supporting what I told about these organizations. They are part of the whole machinery. They would work only if the respective government would work. And you have seen how much change there have been after 2014.


Learning Phase depends on the the ability of the learner to grasp all the things we cannot wait for them to get comfortable.....
By the time they get comfortable they retire taking along with them all there
learning.They have no pressure to deliver .Once that pressure is there they wont take this long to master any technology.

I am not taking about months or weeks as i know i does take years ....
You are talking about much advanced tech here. Every tom, dick and harry knows the basic of a Jet engine. It doesn't mean you could make a jet engine with the basic knowledge or even if you build it you can't expect it to provide you 100kn thrust at the very first try. You got to invest time, energy and money in it. Things like this could be acquired by a rigorous study and trial and error method over a duration of time.
Jet engine was just an example, but thing is same for each and every entity. Every one knows that as per Newtons law every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The basic principle of a gun firing a bullet. Every one knows that a mix of charcoal, nitrate and sulphur. But thus this mean you would be able to make an efficient cartridge out of this knowledge? How much time you think someone would need to make a efficient round with this much of knowledge?

They had all the time in the world starting 1958 .
You have to display your ability and expertise for others to have faith in you and invest in you.

In case it would have been private industry it would have been closed given there performance.
Its a govt entity hence they are surviving.
Your whole perspective in wrong in this regard. Either you have not got the essence of what I tried to say or you have completely made up your mind not to see things. I've written this thing previously too in another thread, going to write a summarized version here again.
After independence we have given more priority towards things like IT and Chemical field. Most of our works has mainly been in these areas. Core engineering like metallurgy or structural engineering has been completely ignored by us. Result of same is right in front of you. Look where we are in IT solutions now and look where we are in metallurgy now. We are one of the top contributor in field of IT and medicine, but have to talk about ToT when it is about designing a basic Titanium alloy cannon barrel. Had we given priority or atleast basic attention towards field like this, things would have been different. Even today out of 100 student, 60 wants to be some IT engineer, 30 something wants to be an doctor or a manager. In the rest 10 you would hardly find 1 student who would say that he wants to study metallurgy, another one or two would want to study electronics. How you expect to have a solid R&D base with something like this in country?

When you talk about giving the same to pvt industry, don't mind, but you are just joking. We are such a world leader in field of IT and have atleast couple of big IT MNCs to name. But why haven't we been able to design something revolutionary like Finnacle? I would not even talk about mind boggling data solutions. This is the condition when we heavily invested in IT, now think what would be the field of defence R&D would look like in pvt firm. Just like i mentioned earlier, why you think Kestrel is still there in TATA garage? Why is Baba Kalyani designed ULH still with Kalyani?

I am a Tejas Fan and they are killing the program.
They were not on time...They did not work with the user properly.
They were clueless about the requirements of IAF.
They lacked management.
First of all in designing Tejas they have consulted IAF. Its the IAF who had played the spoil sport in later part. The only blunder ADA and HAL had done with the project is to add Kaveri with it. Do you really think they are clueless about requirements? Its IAF who seems to be clueless in what they want from Tejas. Tejas has been conceived and planned as a replacement for Mig-21, a third gen fighter. But it came out as a 4.5 or 4++ gen fighter. But now IAF seems to make it a 5th gen fighter with their requirements. Do you think any Pvt entity would have entertained such constantly changing FOC parameters?

As far as management is concerned, make any bureaucrat sit at the top management level of any pvt co.and see what happens.

Governments did not let anyone get into defense agreed .... But they were teh ones who mis used this to there advantage............
As I already mentioned earlier, management of such organizations lies with Govt. They are not free to think out side box and propose change. Its top management is always bureaucrats. If you have a good responsible government, you would have a good responsible government organization.

The government now has changed and I hope they are able to remove this Chalta hai Attitude from there DNA..........................
I too hope so.............
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
When you talk about giving the same to pvt industry, don't mind, but you are just joking. We are such a world leader in field of IT and have atleast couple of big IT MNCs to name. But why haven't we been able to design something revolutionary like Finnacle?
I have the first hand experience and i can say that an India MNC has developed finacle ..... :) :) :) :)
 

Bahamut

Senior Member
Joined
Oct 31, 2015
Messages
2,740
Likes
2,248
Radical reform are needed to put all PSU to productive level where there are not a burden to tax payer and contribute to the economy and scientific base of nation
 

Superdefender

Senior Member
Joined
Feb 15, 2016
Messages
1,207
Likes
1,070
If Boeing, LM both plan to complete all military projects, their condition will be very soon like DRDO. Conversely, what I am trying to say is that if India had multiple defence entity instead of one single large entity, India would have been as powerful as China as of now. A person can't do all the things in the world. If you do, you will fail miserabely. To do that, you always have some companions around you. Trust them, keep faith in them and give them responsibility. They will make it easy for you to progress. I was refering to DRDO.
 

lcafanboy

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 24, 2013
Messages
3,821
Likes
14,427
Country flag
HAL, DRDO, ADA , OFB and other weapon making agencies and companies lack foresight and vision.

I mean that when they started working on Tejas their vision was myopic and focused on technologies available at that time, its like reinventing wheel which becomes obsolete as soon as it is made. They lack vision what would be needed when this platform will be ready after 10-15 years of development time. Like they envisioned MMR radar of that time when world was working on AESA, a normal 4th generation airframe when world was moving to 5th generation, look at Rafale airframe it definitely looks a generation ahead.

The world over weapon designer use foresight to design weapons and military uses it and then improve it by its feedback.

Other problem Indians think conservatively, everything they make, they tend to make it small to save money and lack of vision like small roads leading to congestion and small fighter planes like Tejas. The airframe is so small that it does not even have space for internal EW warfare suit and can't be upgraded in future too. Now compare it to Jaguars see how much they have been upgraded and still have room for improvements. It is sheer lack of vision.

All these organization are being run by idiots and parasites.
 

Kunal Biswas

Member of the Year 2011
Ambassador
Joined
May 26, 2010
Messages
31,123
Likes
40,887
HAL, DRDO, ADA , OFB and Army, IAF and IN are organization under GOI ..

They work based on requirement given by one wing to another within GOI controlled system, Their is no initiative here nor innovation unless their is requirement.

================

This thread is formed at basis of frustration, Which is obvious but things do not come in matter of years, For example if tomorrow their is a requirement given for Rail-guns on tanks, Without having infrastructure or idea of budget involve, The fault goes to entire system rather one part of system.

Till date, We depend on nature for different seasons to test our weapons, Americans on other hand developed large environment domes to test their system in various natural conditions and this was there since 1958 back there.

Indian scientific community is always neglected more than defense community in last so many decades, I hope things are changing now..
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
If saying right is right and wrong is wrong is Frustration then Yes This thread is the child of My Frustration.
Expecting something when sufficient Funds and time is given is frustration then yes this is frustration.
If questioning the role of an organisation which has failed repeatedly is frustration then yes it is frustration.

I am no diplomat and do not like to be one... There is only white and black for me and no Grey areas.

People are ready to defend something which should be questioned,until and unless questions are being asked there is not gonna be any change.

They just play pin pong with us by putting blame on one organisation or another .

There has been a tasked assigned to an organisation they face various hurdles but did they try to overcome those hurdles....Simply saying that they were neglected is not the answer.
ISRO is also an Government entity how are they performing/functioning?

Giving excuses is easy .

Innovation and initiative are the derivative of the work one do.
It can be very small or very huge it needs not to be a requirement in particular.To achieve a goal there can be various mediums and ways choosing the best possible way based on real time scenario can also be innovation.Sticking to text books and not thinking out of the box is there mentality and DNA.
Even then they are not able to achieve anything.

They just sit on one issue and not take any steps to resolve it unless the user /authority fires out at them.

We do not have the infrastructure like other Nations nor do we have experience like them is what i have been listening for almost 5 years now.
Had those Nations thought in the same way they would have also ended where we are now...with the long list of failed projects....Delayed projects .....


The only point here is when you take ownership of something That take full responsibility and not hide and run giving excuses.

Its simple I am not part of the organisation and I will judge you on the basis of your success and failures....
In case of DRDO ADA HAL i need not to say which list is longer.
 

Pulkit

Satyameva Jayate "Truth Alone Triumphs"
Senior Member
Joined
Apr 17, 2014
Messages
1,622
Likes
589
Country flag
HAL, DRDO, ADA , OFB and other weapon making agencies and companies lack foresight and vision.

I mean that when they started working on Tejas their vision was myopic and focused on technologies available at that time, its like reinventing wheel which becomes obsolete as soon as it is made. They lack vision what would be needed when this platform will be ready after 10-15 years of development time. Like they envisioned MMR radar of that time when world was working on AESA, a normal 4th generation airframe when world was moving to 5th generation, look at Rafale airframe it definitely looks a generation ahead.

The world over weapon designer use foresight to design weapons and military uses it and then improve it by its feedback.

Other problem Indians think conservatively, everything they make, they tend to make it small to save money and lack of vision like small roads leading to congestion and small fighter planes like Tejas. The airframe is so small that it does not even have space for internal EW warfare suit and can't be upgraded in future too. Now compare it to Jaguars see how much they have been upgraded and still have room for improvements. It is sheer lack of vision.

All these organization are being run by idiots and parasites.
I agree with you totally I do not get why they do not take the end to end responsibility ..... Oh i know why ... whose gonna question them ?
This Chalta hai Attitude is never gonna change.... and we will always be a foran airforce ...foran army ........
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Global Defence

New threads

Articles

Top