ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[onlinpunit]

I compare based on timeline and projected specs , with possibility of integration in forces .

Assumption is the mother of all fck ups.
More politely proof of the pudding is in the eating.

 

[Lonewolf]

Assumption is the mother of all fck ups.
More politely proof of the pudding is in the eating.

So close the thread as discussion based on a imaginary plane are not worth it according to a mega mind here .


Is the proof of radar development for it is not enough or prototype building is not enough , you wanna see a jet flying to discuss the upon ,right ?


To discuss it's capability we need to compare it to already set benchmark by others ,you have to compare to have a clear idea ,where it will be compromising or where it have made some gains ,or what are the advantages of design .

 

[onlinpunit]

So close the thread as discussion based on a imaginary plane are not worth it according to a mega mind here .


Is the proof of radar development for it is not enough or prototype building is not enough , you wanna see a jet flying to discuss the upon ,right ?


To discuss it's capability we need to compare it to already set benchmark by others ,you have to compare to have a clear idea ,where it will be compromising or where it have made some gains ,or what are the advantages of design .

I have nothing against discussion on ongoing projects. We can discuss it's possible features and speculate over the inclusion of feature developed previously.
As far as X vs Y scenarios are concerned then yes I would like both X and Y to fly before comparing.

 

[Lonewolf]

I have nothing against discussion on ongoing projects. We can discuss it's possible features and speculate over the inclusion of feature developed previously.
What I don't like is useless X vs Y and declaring winners.

Uhhm so the right words you were missing was "pitching in real conditions" without a physical flight happened till now

 

[Honey]

We simply love comparing imaginary ( under development if it offends any one ) planes with the real ones !

The work of making it has started long ago. It is coming in 2022. So we're comparing it to Gripen.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

Maybe possible in next batches.
Like J-10 they switched from Splitter plate to DSI
We might modify later. With F414 EPE and other improvements.

We should improve our planes like US did in case of F 15. We should follow continual improvement approach. We should consistently work on improving design, Weight reduction etc. Intake design is very important. It can be relatively easy if modular design approach is followed.

 

[Trololo]

Quoting from one of my earlier posts. Slightly off track but very relevant IMO.

Common weapons must be used wherever possible to save costs, improve inter operability, and amass numbers. Some use cases are mentioned below. All are within the grasp of currently available Indian technology or those within 5-7 years from now.


1> Development of a common family of LGB kits for Naval fighters, Air Force fighters, and armed drones. The LGB kit must be centred around the HSLD Bomb. This will be our go to precision guided munition.
2> Development of an AASM-Hammer like kit family for all combat aircraft and armed drones of IAF and Navy that features more exotic tech like GPS/GLONASS/IRNSS, INS, GAGAN, DSMAC, TERCOM etc. This will be also be based on the HSLD and meant for future Balakot type ops.
3> Development of a standard air to ground subsonic cruise missile for airforce and navy in the class of the SCALP missile.
4> Development of a standard air to ground supersonic cruise missile for airforce and navy. (Brahmos-NG is the answer to this I think)
5> Operationalisation of the entire Astra family of missiles across all airforce and navy fighter jets.
6> Nirbhay induction across army, navy, and IAF.
7> Brahmos-2 hypersonic missile induction across army, navy, and IAF.
8> Induction of SANT and Helina en masse across Apaches and LCHs of both Navy and Airforce, as well as all armed UAVs in A2G roles. Cap the import of Hellfires after a certain number as backup. Pay the Americans extra to mount these on the Apache.
9> Introduction of a common infantry borne loitering munition that can be used by regular army and spec ops people from all services.

I am avoiding small arms because that is very service specific.

 

[SimplyIndian]

Assumption is the mother of all fck ups.
More politely proof of the pudding is in the eating.

Assume = making Ass of u and me

 

[MonaLazy]

We might modify later. With F414 EPE

Though both F414-INS6 & F-414 EPE have the same dimensions, the airflow requirements are different.

If the 10% jump from F-404-IN20 to F-414-INS6 necessitated a new fighter with enlarged air intakes, there is no reason to believe another 10% jump from F-414-INS6 to F-414 EPE will not need a completely new fighter around it.

Also, here's the long answer of why no F-414 EPE... Infact why no American engine for the AMCA Mk2 because Americans will simply not share core tech. So, we have to look at second rung powers like France (Safran) & UK (RR) who may be more malleable in the face of Indian Rupees- lots and lots of them.


The entry of F-15 EX in MMRCA brings engine by P&W against its arch-rival GE for the first time in a market dominated by GE. 40 Tejas MK1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A will be powered by F404 and India’s upcoming Tejas MK2 will also be powered by F414 which have made GE undisputed market leader in India, as India works on development of more locally dvlpd jets to meet its dmnd. GE is likely to corner engine orders n spare parts orders wrth billions in coming yrs frm India as ech aircraft requires nearly 3.5 engines ovr its airframe life India and the United States for long-discussed to jointly develop a jet engine based on GE’s F414 EPE for India’s AMCA bt failed to set up any jv yet. GE had agreed to set up local assembly of its engines wth HAL for its F414 whn it won an order for 99 engines a few years back. GE also has agreed to set up a company-owned subsidiary in India if India agrees to buy F-21 or F-18 in its MMRCA. GE is also willing to mfg locally 110kn class engine for India’s AMCA program while maintaining full controls over its core technology and IPRs due to which talks b/w India and the United States JV engine for AMCA failed due to India’s insistence of having Indian control over the local company and access and transfer to the core tech. P&W has bn out of the Indian market and allowed GE to dominate the Indian market due to India’s preference f its engines which begin in the late ’80s when it was selected to power India’s LCA program. F-15 EX on offer to India for the first time brings P & W F100 engines to India. While GE dominates world over the sale of its military engines in American made jets like F-16, F-18, it also found in Gripen, T-50, and Tejas but P&W was limited to supply and maintenance of spares for 50 F117 engines for the 11 C-17 transporters in service with IAF. But P&W has some advantage that GE doesn’t have is that both its F119-PW-100 and F135 are the only engines that are powering America’s 5th gen fighter jets F-22 Raptor and F-35. There have been no official records that India and P&W at any point of time had engaged with each other fr d possible development of engine jointly, but US Govt officials might allow other aero-engine makers to engage with India other thn GE due to prolonged stalling which ultimately lead to the dismantling of d joint study group which was engaged in talks for jv of the engine for the AMCA. P&W hs d tech n manpower caliber to dvlp an engine to cater to meet d demands of the AMCA. 100-PW-229 on offer to India with F-15EX is not only reliable bt more thn 7k F100 engines hv bn produced n pwrs 99% of all USAF F-15 and 62% of the world’s inventory of F-16. F100 Engine Enhancement Package(EEP) launched in 2k4 hs raised d engine depot inspection interval frm 4300 to 6k which can produce 129.7 kN wet. A detuned F100 EEP or a new engine based on the core tech of the sm could be good enough to pwr AMCA Mk2 (2035 production) only if Pratt & Whitney is willing to go extra miles then GE in terms of sharing of the core tec

 

[Kchontha]

What are the other options if western country backoffs from 110 kn engine for amca? Gurus pls illuminate.

 

[Trololo]

What are the other options if western country backoffs from 110 kn engine for amca? Gurus pls illuminate.

Grim. Unless we can see if the tech for the Izdeliye-30 of Russia can be utilised for a 110KN class engine. IMO the best way to stop this problem is to sanction a fat chunk of money and drive this program from PMO level.

 

[Lonewolf]

Grim. Unless we can see if the tech for the Izdeliye-30 of Russia can be utilised for a 110KN class engine. IMO the best way to stop this problem is to sanction a fat chunk of money and drive this program from PMO level.

Japan maybe ,no ine else ,ruskie maybe but i am damn sure their will not ve 6 th gen engine

 

[Kchontha]

In addition we have to established a high altitue engine testing facilities in india like gromov and procure twin engine test beds also.

 

[Kchontha]

Japan maybe ,no ine else ,ruskie maybe but i am damn sure their will not ve 6 th gen engine

Forget japanese they rarely share their high end techs since the defeats in the 2nd ww.

 

[Lonewolf]

Forget japanese they rarely share their high end techs since the defeats in the 2nd ww.

Now they are trying to be back in buisness as US is not trustable ,they are going to export weapons soon

 

[Kchontha]

Now they are trying to be back in buisness as US is not trustable ,they are going to export weapons soon

Oh really then it will be a good developmment. Better we do not put all the eggs on uncle sam's basket.

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

If the 10% jump from F-404-IN20 to F-414-INS6 necessitated a new fighter with enlarged air intakes, there is no reason to believe another 10% jump from F-414-INS6 to F-414 EPE will not need a completely new fighter around it.

For enlarged intakes we don’t necessarily need a completely new fighter it was/is just a design flaw in Tejas! It’s not the modular internally these things are being addressed in the FOC version on IAF request! This is why we needed to design mk2 from scratch as things are actually running parallel.

https://idrw.org/lca-tejas-producti...dization-and-interchangeability-icy-of-parts/

Gripen c/d was converted to E/D variant easily due to extremely modular design & even replacing engine for maintenance on that fighter is like piece of cake!

 

[Ar.gaurav28]

Oh really then it will be a good developmment. Better we do not put all the eggs on uncle sam's basket.

Uncle sam needs us more than we need them!
Even compromised Joe/Chow Biden is still anti China and that will be the norm for next 20 years atleast all we need to do is take advantage of geopolitical situation absorb cutting edge defence tech knowledge and get as much as TOT we can get from USA & EU!
China is a threat to their Democratic dominance on the world!

 

[flanker99]

hm looks like the radar for mk2 has been under testing for quite some time....from drdo TF

 

[Spitfire9]

View attachment 92887

Though both F414-INS6 & F-414 EPE have the same dimensions, the airflow requirements are different.

If the 10% jump from F-404-IN20 to F-414-INS6 necessitated a new fighter with enlarged air intakes, there is no reason to believe another 10% jump from F-414-INS6 to F-414 EPE will not need a completely new fighter around it.

Also, here's the long answer of why no F-414 EPE... Infact why no American engine for the AMCA Mk2 because Americans will simply not share core tech. So, we have to look at second rung powers like France (Safran) & UK (RR) who may be more malleable in the face of Indian Rupees- lots and lots of them.


The entry of F-15 EX in MMRCA brings engine by P&W against its arch-rival GE for the first time in a market dominated by GE. 40 Tejas MK1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A will be powered by F404 and India’s upcoming Tejas MK2 will also be powered by F414 which have made GE undisputed market leader in India, as India works on development of more locally dvlpd jets to meet its dmnd. GE is likely to corner engine orders n spare parts orders wrth billions in coming yrs frm India as ech aircraft requires nearly 3.5 engines ovr its airframe life India and the United States for long-discussed to jointly develop a jet engine based on GE’s F414 EPE for India’s AMCA bt failed to set up any jv yet. GE had agreed to set up local assembly of its engines wth HAL for its F414 whn it won an order for 99 engines a few years back. GE also has agreed to set up a company-owned subsidiary in India if India agrees to buy F-21 or F-18 in its MMRCA. GE is also willing to mfg locally 110kn class engine for India’s AMCA program while maintaining full controls over its core technology and IPRs due to which talks b/w India and the United States JV engine for AMCA failed due to India’s insistence of having Indian control over the local company and access and transfer to the core tech. P&W has bn out of the Indian market and allowed GE to dominate the Indian market due to India’s preference f its engines which begin in the late ’80s when it was selected to power India’s LCA program. F-15 EX on offer to India for the first time brings P & W F100 engines to India. While GE dominates world over the sale of its military engines in American made jets like F-16, F-18, it also found in Gripen, T-50, and Tejas but P&W was limited to supply and maintenance of spares for 50 F117 engines for the 11 C-17 transporters in service with IAF. But P&W has some advantage that GE doesn’t have is that both its F119-PW-100 and F135 are the only engines that are powering America’s 5th gen fighter jets F-22 Raptor and F-35. There have been no official records that India and P&W at any point of time had engaged with each other fr d possible development of engine jointly, but US Govt officials might allow other aero-engine makers to engage with India other thn GE due to prolonged stalling which ultimately lead to the dismantling of d joint study group which was engaged in talks for jv of the engine for the AMCA. P&W hs d tech n manpower caliber to dvlp an engine to cater to meet d demands of the AMCA. 100-PW-229 on offer to India with F-15EX is not only reliable bt more thn 7k F100 engines hv bn produced n pwrs 99% of all USAF F-15 and 62% of the world’s inventory of F-16. F100 Engine Enhancement Package(EEP) launched in 2k4 hs raised d engine depot inspection interval frm 4300 to 6k which can produce 129.7 kN wet. A detuned F100 EEP or a new engine based on the core tech of the sm could be good enough to pwr AMCA Mk2 (2035 production) only if Pratt & Whitney is willing to go extra miles then GE in terms of sharing of the core tec

I think the only reason GE would do a jv on EPE would be to STOP India getting the knowhow required to build reasonably advanced jet engines. And to get masses of rupees into the bargain.

Why do I say that? If India did a jv with SAFRAN or RR, India might get enough knowhow to be able to develop her own engine some time in the 2030's or 2040's (assuming India makes a strategic commitment to invest in gas turbine R&D to gain more knowledge).

My take: firstly, US is too risky politically (possible US Congress interference with supply) so don't do a deal with an American jet OEM. Secondly, an American OEM - or Congress - may prevent ToT transfer. I think that India stands a better chance of gaining the expertise to make engines in the future by a tie up with a European OEM.

Designing, building and testing indigenous engines is the goal isn't it?