ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[no smoking]

Now they are trying to be back in buisness as US is not trustable ,they are going to export weapons soon

US is not trustable to Japan?
US is not an option to Japan! Without US tech support, most of Japan's high-tech weapons won't work.

 

[MonaLazy]

India needed engines for LCA but never got round to producing one that worked

Sometimes one feels almost sorry for the IAF. Tejas was supposed to be a replacement for the humble Mig-21 as per IAF, but sometimes (a lot!) DRDO intervened at just the right (wrong?) time and Tejas snowballed from being a quick fix to creating an Indian aerospace ecosystem by acquiring/creating latest tech & self reliance through indigenization.

Now AMCA Mk2 requires an engine but no foreign engine fits the bill.

Being ahead of the feasibility curve on paper (ASQRs/GSQRs) has been a speciality of both IA & IAF.

if RR is amenable to parting with some/lots of ToT in a JV, India could be involved in development

From all accounts so far that does appear to be the case. RR has said IP will rest with India. But again I have to ask:

1. Is the full Tempest engine on offer? My guess would be no. We are probably looking at RR's contribution to EJ200.
2. What will RR get out of this partnership? Funding from UK/Italy being no problem.

financing EPE

This was the first choice for India but the US-India JETJWG stalled by end 2019 (over IP transfer disagreement otherwise India would have happily paid the $2B to have full access to EPE know how and know why) so that is the end of it. The non-EPE will fill in until the 110 kN comes of age.

JV route would bring benefits in terms of knowledge acquired through GTRE work, ToT, IP as well as the benefits of producing JV engines in India.

Absolutely, if it works as planned. GE (& P&W?) is out because of IP, Safran because of price (€500M to share M88-2 core and bring Kaveri to a reliable 85kN), RR seems to be the only viable option left. The devil being in the details one will have to wait until next year once the feasibility is complete to see what the work share & timelines look like.

 

[Trololo]

Here is my $0.02:

1> Just like India jumped the gun with an all digital FBW and composite construction for the LCA, it should now similarly jump the gun to a variable cycle engine for its 110KN class engine project.
2> Future engines should cater to not just thrust but also high electrical power requirements. We need to extract as much power as possible from this engine.

Now imagine the following:

1> AMCA Mk2, TEDBF, and LCA Mk2 being powered by the same variable cycle 5th gen engine! That is an amazing prospect!

Where we stand:

1> No idea if GTRE has a VC engine design available on paper at least.
2> Many components of F414 caliber like annular combustor, blisks, etc have been developed.
3> FADEC control system is developed and can be improved when necessary. Full IP, know how, and know why is available in house.
4> Experience in the form of Kaveri's design is available.

Way forward:

Don't know.

 

[MonaLazy]

jump the gun to a variable cycle engine for its 110KN class engine project

Slim chance of that happening. Reason? Aggressive timeline. We need to mass-produce this engine by 2030, so it is available by the time AMCA Mk2 prototyping commences.

2022 if the RR partnership fructifies, we have only 8 years to fix the metallurgy, set up all manners of testing facilities for future engines, test & certify it for various altitudes (if it goes into Tejas Mk2 then add redundant controls for single-engine fighter) & put it into production in a factory. That's a lot of work even with outside help! Rivalling what GTRE achieved in 40 years. Focus of AMCA Mk2 itself will be to go from 5 gen to 5.5 gen which is another truck load of work in AI, optionally manned, swarm drones, hypersonic and DEWs.

I think a more pragmatic approach would be to pend the variable cycle for an AMCA Mk3 around 2040. Just roll out AMCA Mk2 with an EJ200/414 EPE class engine IP fully owned by India. If there is anything to learn from LCA, that is baby steps and fast iterations. Even the KAI KF-21 Boramae will be flying with a pair of F414's, around the same time.

A variable cycle by switching between high thrust & high efficiency modes gives you:

The first three are operational benefits that can be made up for by IFR at the current engine tech level.


If we go chasing the ultimate in fighter tech and roll out plane after plane with GE engines until that ultimate engine is available, US will forever be in a position to black mail us- better to cover for that quickly with 20 year old tech which we are currently struggling to master.

 

[Lonewolf]

US is not trustable to Japan?
US is not an option to Japan! Without US tech support, most of Japan's high-tech weapons won't work.

US is not reliable in case of a conflict in their backyard ,not because they will back down but will be having their own problem and for that japanese need theur iwn industry and export weapons to friendly nations , so that they will a immediate back up in neighborhood

 

[Lonewolf]

Slim chance of that happening. Reason? Aggressive timeline. We need to mass-produce this engine by 2030, so it is available by the time AMCA Mk2 prototyping commences.

2022 if the RR partnership fructifies, we have only 8 years to fix the metallurgy, set up all manners of testing facilities for future engines, test & certify it for various altitudes (if it goes into Tejas Mk2 then add redundant controls for single-engine fighter) & put it into production in a factory. That's a lot of work even with outside help! Rivalling what GTRE achieved in 40 years. Focus of AMCA Mk2 itself will be to go from 5 gen to 5.5 gen which is another truck load of work in AI, optionally manned, swarm drones, hypersonic and DEWs.

I think a more pragmatic approach would be to pend the variable cycle for an AMCA Mk3 around 2040. Just roll out AMCA Mk2 with an EJ200/414 EPE class engine IP fully owned by India. If there is anything to learn from LCA, that is baby steps and fast iterations. Even the KAI KF-21 Boramae will be flying with a pair of F414's, around the same time.

A variable cycle by switching between high thrust & high efficiency modes gives you:

View attachment 93009

The first three are operational benefits that can be made up for by IFR at the current engine tech level.


If we go chasing the ultimate in fighter tech and roll out plane after plane with GE engines until that ultimate engine is available, US will forever be in a position to black mail us- better to cover for that quickly with 20 year old tech which we are currently struggling to master.

Kaveri had some elements of vce in it's design , @fire starter or someone else said so .

Also RR has done some work on Advent , and rr will be developing engine if it's useful for their tempest ,and that requires advent

 

[Lonewolf]

@MonaLazy you are getting facts , thing is we need this project now or.never , threats are evolving ,with economy going up ,we will face threats , needs weapons to be at standard , and a single engine program will cost about equal to developing whole aircraft , you need to understand , aero engine are too critical tech ,if plan takes off ,we need it to be best in class ,or forget about it ,iaf won't accept what's in market , so better prepare for future requirements too

 

[Shekhar Singh]

Kaveri had some elements of vce in it's design , @fire starter or someone else said so .

Also RR has done some work on Advent , and rr will be developing engine if it's useful for their tempest ,and that requires advent

Kaveri engine has been specifically designed for Indian environment. The engine is a variable cycle-flat-rated engine in which the thrust drop due to high ambient, forward speed is well compensated by the increased turbine entry temperature at the spool Kabini altitude test speed.

Link: http://14.143.90.243/drdoaudit/kaveri-engine

 

[MonaLazy]

we need this project now or.never

That's the classic mulk nazuk daur se guzar raha hai argument. I don't buy it. Once we own a 5th gen engine by 2030, we can do advent by 2040. Easy. Possibly under the same collab with RR. For now we must ask them for what they already have, not what they hope to have 10-15 years from now. However, if RR can give us a tested, certified & mass produced 6th gen engine by 2028 then I'm all for it. But that ain't happening because the RR engine is in its 6th year/phase 2 of development. There is a phase 3 before the first full scale demonstrator is even built. God knows when it will enter production.

aero engine are too critical tech ,if plan takes off ,we need it to be best in class ,or forget about it ,iaf won't accept what's in market , so better prepare for future requirements too

Come 2030 would you rather have a matured 5th gen jet engine or an in the works 6th gen? Best in class, future requirements are all euphemisms for scope creep. Project delay. Blame DRDO/GTRE. Will IAF be the kid in the candy shop demanding everything available or will they be smarter? I think by being silent on ADVENT or E2SG or any other alphabet soup IAF is passing up on the fancy. What they want, the 110kNs is being made plainly evident.

Even a 414 EPE level tech that we can mass produce by 2030 will put us among the top dogs in Asia, certainly far ahead of Pakistan and China. It gives us strategic independence for mk 2, amca and tedbf. That alone is worth its weight in gold. Plus forex savings from not having to pay GE.

Finally engine dev is a continuous process. Please see M88 TCO pack followed by THEO program.

 

[Lonewolf]

That's the classic mulk nazuk daur se guzar raha hai argument. I don't buy it. Once we own a 5th gen engine by 2030, we can do advent by 2040. Easy. Possibly under the same collab with RR. For now we must ask them for what they already have, not what they hope to have 10-15 years from now. However, if RR can give us a tested, certified & mass produced 6th gen engine by 2028 then I'm all for it. But that ain't happening because the RR engine is in its 6th year/phase 2 of development. There is a phase 3 before the first full scale demonstrator is even built. God knows when it will enter production.



Come 2030 would you rather have a matured 5th gen jet engine or an in the works 6th gen? Best in class, future requirements are all euphemisms for scope creep. Project delay. Blame DRDO/GTRE. Will IAF be the kid in the candy shop demanding everything available or will they be smarter? I think by being silent on ADVENT or E2SG or any other alphabet soup IAF is passing up on the fancy. What they want, the 110kNs is being made plainly evident.

Even a 414 EPE level tech that we can mass produce by 2030 will put us among the top dogs in Asia, certainly far ahead of Pakistan and China. It gives us strategic independence for mk 2, amca and tedbf. That alone is worth its weight in gold. Plus forex savings from not having to pay GE.

Finally engine dev is a continuous process. Please see M88 TCO pack followed by THEO program.

Don't even talk about ge ,they are not in picture at all .

Next thing ,what is difference between a 5 th gen engine and 6 th gen , and what was 4 th gen , what was 3 rd gen .


Then i can explain my point ,to you

 

[MonaLazy]

Kaveri engine is a variable cycle-flat-rated engine

Awesome! Something new to learn here every day.. I need to read up on that.. but if you could, please clarify what a variable cycle-flat-rated engine is exactly. Is it same as adaptive cycle engine offering two modes- power & eco (akin to cars)?

XA100 | GE Aerospace

XA100

www.geaviation.com

.. has a nice illustration & this is how GE defines adaptive engines:

Unlike traditional engines with fixed airflow, the XA100 is a variable cycle engine that will automatically alternate between a high-thrust mode for maximum power and a high-efficiency mode for optimum fuel savings.

High-thrust mode
Directs the majority of air through the engine's core and fan streams, delivering greater thrust during combat engagements and helping pilots execute their missions effectively.

High-efficiency mode
Directs air through the engine's third stream to dramatically reduce fuel consumption, provide greater range and allow pilots to persist longer in areas of interest with reduced risk.

 

[MonaLazy]

Don't even talk about ge ,they are not in picture at all .

I Know. Stated as much myself. Have been careful to say "414 EPE level tech" everywhere since that is the product closest to the end result desired from RR.

difference between a 5 th gen engine and 6 th gen

Please consider it analogous to fighter generations, since it is cumbersome to type 5th gen fighter jet engine every time (so 5th gen engine)..

 

[Lonewolf]

I Know. Stated as much myself. Have been careful to say "414 EPE level tech" everywhere since that is the product closest to the end result desired from RR.



Please consider it analogous to fighter generations, since it is cumbersome to type 5th gen fighter jet engine every time (so 5th gen engine)..

6 th gen is nothing big but a step up stone , yoi made the combustion in chamber optimized for various thrust level , change air flow , make compressor and turbine blade moving in perpendicular direction to change pressure ratio and all , to achieve greater efficiency at low thrust as well as high thrust with high air mass flow .and make it sixth gen , just Design changes , why not go with rr and make the electricity generation more powerful , as they are replacing gearbox generator with inbuilt electricity genrator in thrbine to save space and increase energy generation


Ge didn't did something breakthrough except in metallurgy , just made the airflow in engine variable which requires higher temperature bearing blades ,even if you go for so called 5 th gen engine ,you will need higher temperature bearing capability of blades for higher efficiency , then why don't just include variable air flow

 

[MonaLazy]

For the variable cycle-flat-rated engine mystery, found something in the annals of this very forum: https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/post-1461341
Starting off with..

Parting remarks..

If it was a real Adaptive cycle engine then:
a. GTRE would be shouting the same from roof tops
b. We would not be struggling to match F404 level performance with the power of adaptive cycle backing us.

why not go with rr and make the electricity generation more powerful , as they are replacing gearbox generator with inbuilt electricity genrator in thrbine to save space and increase energy generation

Ge didn't did something breakthrough except in metallurgy , just made the airflow in engine variable which requires higher temperature bearing blades ,even if you go for so called 5 th gen engine ,you will need higher temperature bearing capability of blades for higher efficiency , then why don't just include variable air flow

Appreciate that perspective but I am talking about pulling Indian jet engine chest nuts out of American fire asap. How long is RR going to take to build the Tempest engine? For reference US's ADVENT engine program started in 2007 and transformed into AETP in 2016, and as of 18 May 2021 GE has just finished testing their first XA100 full-scale prototype, technology development for which began 14 years ago.

Do we have 14 years for AMCA Mk2? & this is overly optimistic assuming RR has access to the same level of resources as GE & P&W. If AMCA Mk2 is to roll out by 2035 then shouldn't its engine be ready by 2028-30?

This article from early 2020: https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...gy-for-next-generation-tempest-programme.aspx

The launch of phase one of the E2SG programme saw significant investment in the development of an integrated electrical facility – a unique test house where gas turbine engines can be physically connected to a DC electrical network.

The launch of the second phase of the project in 2017 saw the inclusion of a second electrical generator connected to the other spool of the engine. It also included an energy storage system in the electrical network and the ability to intelligently manage the supply of power between all these systems.

As part of the E2SG programme, Rolls-Royce is investigating the feasibility of using dual spool generation to influence the operability, responsiveness and efficiency of the engine. Another key technology under development is the Power Manager intelligent control system, which uses algorithms to make real time intelligent decisions about how to supply the current aircraft electrical demand while optimising other factors including engine efficiency to reduce fuel burn or engine temperature to extend component life.

Throughout the Tempest programme, Rolls-Royce will be continuing to mature the electrical technologies demonstrated by the E2SG programme, with a third phase of testing likely to include a novel thermal management system being integrated with the overall system, as well as more electric engine accessories.

Not hard to see it is work in progress. So without tying the fate of AMCA Mk2 to the success of Tempest engine Mk1, I am saying we take the metallurgy for HPT & HPC from EJ2x0 and make the 110 kN engine Mk 1. This material science is already a reality today, there should be no delay incorporating them into our engine.

Once the tempest engine is mature we can use the same collaboration to source ADVENT, E2SG, thermal management into 110 kN Mk2 engine.

 

[Lonewolf]

For the variable cycle-flat-rated engine mystery, found something in the annals of this very forum: https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/kaveri-engine.5097/post-1461341
Starting off with..
View attachment 93072

Parting remarks..
View attachment 93071
If it was a real Adaptive cycle engine then:
a. GTRE would be shouting the same from roof tops
b. We would not be struggling to match F404 level performance with the power of adaptive cycle backing us.



Appreciate that perspective but I am talking about pulling Indian jet engine chest nuts out of American fire asap. How long is RR going to take to build the Tempest engine? For reference US's ADVENT engine program started in 2007 and transformed into AETP in 2016, and as of 18 May 2021 GE has just finished testing their first XA100 full-scale prototype, technology development for which began 14 years ago.

Do we have 14 years for AMCA Mk2? & this is overly optimistic assuming RR has access to the same level of resources as GE & P&W. If AMCA Mk2 is to roll out by 2035 then shouldn't its engine be ready by 2028-30?

This article from early 2020: https://www.rolls-royce.com/media/p...gy-for-next-generation-tempest-programme.aspx



Not hard to see it is work in progress. So without tying the fate of AMCA Mk2 to the success of Tempest engine Mk1, I am saying we take the metallurgy for HPT & HPC from EJ2x0 and make the 110 kN engine Mk 1. This material science is already a reality today, there should be no delay incorporating them into our engine.

Once the tempest engine is mature we can use the same collaboration to source ADVENT, E2SG, thermal management into 110 kN Mk2 engine.

We have almost same level tech of ej 200

 

[MonaLazy]

We have almost same level tech of ej 200

then we would be producing 90-96kN afterburning thrust with no issues and would have used Kaveri in all fighters from Tejas to TEDBF.

 

[Lonewolf]

then we would be producing 90-96kN afterburning thrust with no issues and would have used Kaveri in all fighters from Tejas to TEDBF.

And we here don't taking in account that kaveri has inherent Design issues ,not mettalurgy now , earluer it was , now it's more like almost solved .

We also forget that kaveri is a engine for lower thrust not in class of ej 200

 

[MonaLazy]

And we here don't taking in account that kaveri has inherent Design issues ,not mettalurgy now , earluer it was , now it's more like almost solved .

Then why does it need still more work only to power UCAVs? No one talks about putting it into even Mk1 Tejas!

We also forget that kaveri is a engine for lower thrust not in class of ej 200

So like F404 evolved to F414 to EPE, where is the progression for Kaveri?

 

[Lonewolf]

Then why does it need still more work only to power UCAVs? No one talks about putting it into even Mk1 Tejas!



So like F404 evolved to F414 to EPE, where is the progression for Kaveri?

Inherent Design problems can't be solved ,just optimized for ucav, because it is UNMANNED

 

[THESIS THORON]

NICE DISCUSSION I LEARNT A LOT