ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

The Maverick

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Is it just me or does anyone also think that Tejas MK2 seems pretty ugly? I mean I'd take function over form every time but Mk2 is just plain ugly.

genuinely what do you feel is a superb looking design then if mark 2 feels ugly

I actually love the gripen look and mark 2 is similar

overall.i love the new Amca look though and in 4th generation era my other favourite was super hornets
 

Whitecollar

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Has someone thought why Tejas MWF project didn't finalize a Russian AL41F engine in place of lower thruse GE F414? I know that overall MTBO and TTL of F414 is better than that of AL41 series but AL41 with 140kN engine would've made more sense looking to payload capacity and high drag coefficient due to wing span of MWF. Also, Uttam radar would've gotten more power in comparison resulting in higher range expectation.
Getting a higher thrust engine also meant we could've used MWF as trainers for IN aircraft carriers too. Since we already overhaul and maintain AL31FP engines at HAL koraput, switching to a known tech AL41F wouldn't be a burden on our ecosystem also plus further engines could be brought to replace Su30 MKI's older gen engines.
 

Shekhar Singh

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Has someone thought why Tejas MWF project didn't finalize a Russian AL41F engine in place of lower thruse GE F414? I know that overall MTBO and TTL of F414 is better than that of AL41 series but AL41 with 140kN engine would've made more sense looking to payload capacity and high drag coefficient due to wing span of MWF. Also, Uttam radar would've gotten more power in comparison resulting in higher range expectation.
Getting a higher thrust engine also meant we could've used MWF as trainers for IN aircraft carriers too. Since we already overhaul and maintain AL31FP engines at HAL koraput, switching to a known tech AL41F wouldn't be a burden on our ecosystem also plus further engines could be brought to replace Su30 MKI's older gen engines.
Desi Answer... AL41F ka mileage accha nahi hai:pound:
 

Whitecollar

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Desi Answer... AL41F ka milage accha nahi hai:pound:
You do realize that getting a higher thrust engine (that too with TVC) means overall aerodynamic performance and manuverability won't be jeopardized when conformal tanks or additional fuel tanks are used, don't you??
I believe ADA should've gone for 1 variant atleast or a TD version with AL41FP, just my opinion here.
Looking forward to CAATSA fear, should America impose sanctions after getting S-400, GE-F414 engine's export to India maybe completely banned making us helpless. All we will be left with is a puny 50kN dry thrust Kaveri which can't even fly a UCAV.
 

Whitecollar

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First of all there won't be any sanctions coming on India.
West need India more than India need west.
There's hugh Indian lobby working in Capitol Hill.
So no Sanctions.
Russian engine doesn't have reliability.
They might be good enough for twin engine fighters
Dude...there CAN be sanctions imposed on India. USA never thank twice before imposing bans on India when we did Pokhran test. Due to that balsy move, we suffered in defence tech for almost 10+ years.
Secondly, bland statements like "Russian engines have poor reliability" alone don't make an argument. Sure they are less reliable compared to Western ones but AL41 isn't an older tech engine. A lot of work was done on it to improve reliability and efficiency causing fans to burn and compress even when slight impurities were present in fuel.
Anyways let's not derail the topic. Now that GE -F414 HAS been selected, any and all chances of Russian engine by ADA will be scrapped which shouldn't happen. I still believe they should make a TD version and fly it for gathering data about realtime aerodynamics of MWF airframe. In near future, unless our Kaveri is capable to produce 100+kN thrust with high reliability and constistancy, we should have another alternative.
 

MonaLazy

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AL41F engine in place of lower thruse GE F414
AL41F (besides longevity, MTBO & reliability concerns with Russian engines) is a considerably bigger engine (5m long, 1.3m wide, 1500kgs) than F414 (4m long, .9m wide, 1110kgs), won't fit the MWF in it's current form. It would stick 1m out of the MWF's backside. It is not designed for single-engine jets nor to weather the sea. In fact, it was not even in contention when the choice was made (not sure if it was even available then- around 2009)- it was F414 vs EJ200.

From here:

Dr Dipankar Banerjee, the DRDO’s Chief Controller of Aeronautics, says two crucial factors will determine the winner: which engine fits into the Tejas with minimal re-engineering; and which one works out cheaper (acquisition cost + operating cost).

The DRDO officer, who guides the Tejas programme, debunked the long-held belief that the Tejas would require major re-engineering for fitting the new engine. “We have evaluated both engines and we believe only minor changes will be needed in the fuselage of the Tejas”, said Dr Banerjee. “Which engine is selected will be largely determined by its cost.”

Both engines, however, need minor design modifications by their vendors to meet the specific requirements of the Tejas. According to Dr Banerjee, “The Eurofighter Typhoon is powered by two EJ200 engines, but the LCA has just a single engine. For safety reasons, it must have a re-ignition system to restart the engine automatically if it goes off in mid-flight.”

And since the selected engine will also power the naval Tejas, the EJ200 needs to be protected against the corrosive salt-water naval environment.

The EJ200’s rival, the GE F-414, has neither of these concerns; it already powers the single-engine Gripen fighter, as well as the F/A-18 Super Hornet, which the US Navy operates off aircraft carriers.
 
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Spitfire9

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Dude...there CAN be sanctions imposed on India. USA never thank twice before imposing bans on India when we did Pokhran test. Due to that balsy move, we suffered in defence tech for almost 10+ years.
Secondly, bland statements like "Russian engines have poor reliability" alone don't make an argument. Sure they are less reliable compared to Western ones but AL41 isn't an older tech engine. A lot of work was done on it to improve reliability and efficiency causing fans to burn and compress even when slight impurities were present in fuel.
Anyways let's not derail the topic. Now that GE -F414 HAS been selected, any and all chances of Russian engine by ADA will be scrapped which shouldn't happen. I still believe they should make a TD version and fly it for gathering data about realtime aerodynamics of MWF airframe. In near future, unless our Kaveri is capable to produce 100+kN thrust with high reliability and constistancy, we should have another alternative.
You talk of needing an alternative to F414. That is what is currently being discussed with RR, I hear. Kaveri is finished, isn't it, in the sense that there is no plan or timeline to get to 100kN thrust now that SAFRAN has been rejected? In any event 100kN is not enough for AMCA, so why even think of Kaveri when a derated 110kN engine of new design could be used to re-engine MWF 2030's -2040's.

The idea of a TD with a powerful Russian engine: would there be time to gather and analyse data so it could feed MWF design changes to be tested before production is scheduled to start?
 

Whitecollar

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The idea of a TD with a powerful Russian engine: would there be time to gather and analyse data so it could feed MWF design changes to be tested before production is scheduled to start?
[/QUOTE]
The idea of TD was not to get data for an F414 powered MWF but as an alternative approach to F-414 dependancy. With the amount of money ADA has, this could've easily been done.
In case of any issue faced with US in future regarding AK-203 deal, S-400 deal, Kamov heli deal, etc resulting in export ban of GE engines, ADA should not go back to the drawing board and say: well, shite bro we have to redesign the complete fuselage and accomodate some other engine.
Regarding Kaveri: WS 10 engine was reverse engineered in 2006 by the Chinese. By 2008, they announced the WS-10 engine to be flight worthy. After few years, they thenselves claimed that MTBO of WS-10 was around 40 hours only. Imagine spending millions of dollars and then only achieving 40 hrs of engine performance. Even now after further millions of dollars and a decade wasted, they have come "close" to performance and service life of an AL31FP engine.
So unless, RR is a saint or India is ready to spend in billions, they will NOT sell us the hot core or crystal blade tech. They will help us make the engine but the main heated components(single crystal blade for HP, LP turbines and hot core) will be their own OEM.
 

Bleh

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Just you. Not heard this from anyone else. actually find it hard to believe that anyone would call this design ugly!



I find it absolutely gorgeous.
Um actually... we didn't do the ledge thing at the wing root, hoping it's just temporary. Bit more of seems its gonna stay, along with that Jaguar style refueling probe retraction. 😐
Who else hates MWF's new canard-base design?.. @Kuntal sure does (2nd one is official render).


IMG_20210427_222743.png

EtmRUk8VIAA9G9C.jpeg
 
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Spitfire9

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The idea of a TD with a powerful Russian engine: would there be time to gather and analyse data so it could feed MWF design changes to be tested before production is scheduled to start?
The idea of TD was not to get data for an F414 powered MWF but as an alternative approach to F-414 dependancy. With the amount of money ADA has, this could've easily been done.
In case of any issue faced with US in future regarding AK-203 deal, S-400 deal, Kamov heli deal, etc resulting in export ban of GE engines, ADA should not go back to the drawing board and say: well, shite bro we have to redesign the complete fuselage and accomodate some other engine.
Regarding Kaveri: WS 10 engine was reverse engineered in 2006 by the Chinese. By 2008, they announced the WS-10 engine to be flight worthy. After few years, they thenselves claimed that MTBO of WS-10 was around 40 hours only. Imagine spending millions of dollars and then only achieving 40 hrs of engine performance. Even now after further millions of dollars and a decade wasted, they have come "close" to performance and service life of an AL31FP engine.
So unless, RR is a saint or India is ready to spend in billions, they will NOT sell us the hot core or crystal blade tech. They will help us make the engine but the main heated components(single crystal blade for HP, LP turbines and hot core) will be their own OEM.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to check, but RR has probably spent well over $50 billion on R&D at today's prices. RR spent ~$1.5 billion in 2018 or 2019 alone (cannot remember which). RR spends several times as much on R&D each year as India's entire spend on Kaveri over several decades. You mention single crystal technology. Did I not read recently that single crystal blades had been developed in India for a helicopter engine? I suggest GOI ups the spend on single crystal technology research five, ten or twentyfold so that India gets to producing single crystal blades suitable for use in fighter engines sooner rather than later.

If India refuses to invest in R&D and so lacks the technology she could have developed by now, is it the job of other companies in other countries to spend $billions on developing technologies and then to sell the IP to India for a handful of rupees?
 
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Whitecollar

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I'm not going to check, but RR has probably spent well over $50 billion on R&D at today's prices. RR spent ~$1.5 billion in 2018 or 2019 alone (cannot remember which). RR spends several times as much on R&D each year as India's entire spend on Kaveri over several decades. You mention single crystal technology. Did I not read recently that single crystal blades had been developed in India for a helicopter engine? I suggest GOI ups the spend on single crystal technology research five, ten or twentyfold so that India gets to producing single crystal blades suitable for use in fighter engines sooner rather than later.

If India refuses to invest in R&D and so lacks the technology she could have developed by now, is it the job of other companies in other countries to spend $billions on developing technologies and then to sell the IP to India for a handful of rupees?
As far as funds are concerned, Kaveri isn't gonna get a single penny until it is mated with a UCAV and flown for few hundred hours. GOI made that pretty clear few months ago.
Regarding rejuvinating the Kaveri, it simply ain't gonna happen unless we use RR's or Safran's hot core and crystal blades. This is a fact.
What IAF could've done is they would have agreed to this term and asked DRDO to go ahead with integration and performance evaluation of modified Kaveri with close to 100kN thrust(with RR or Safran component). This engine could be tested for it's MTBO and TTL. Meanwhile, Tejas MWF would continue to use GE-F414.
 

Whitecollar

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AL41F (besides longevity, MTBO & reliability concerns with Russian engines) is a considerably bigger engine (5m long, 1.3m wide, 1500kgs) than F414 (4m long, .9m wide, 1110kgs), won't fit the MWF in it's current form. It would stick 1m out of the MWF's backside. It is not designed for single-engine jets nor to weather the sea.
Look at this design that I, a complete noob, propose for including a heavy weight AL41F engine with better intake:

PicsArt_06-12-07.52.54.jpg
 

Spitfire9

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As far as funds are concerned, Kaveri isn't gonna get a single penny until it is mated with a UCAV and flown for few hundred hours.
So do it!

Regarding rejuvinating the Kaveri, it simply ain't gonna happen unless we use RR's or Safran's hot core and crystal blades. This is a fact.
DRDO makes single crystal blades. Why would SAFRAN or RR be needed?

I know nothing about the Kaveri core. Some on this site have said it is up to scratch, some have not. Are there fans of the Kaveri core here simply because it is Indian and the reality is that it is a lousy core, Indian or not? SAFRAN wanted to replace it. If it was up to scratch, why did they want to do that? In any event, why bother getting a foreign OEM to fix it if the IP involved is not transferred? Next time India attempts to make an engine, foreign help may be required again.

I guess that if Kaveri is to be revived and be made to work, GOI will need to be prepared to stump up $billions rather than $hundreds of millions. Whatever, there is no reason to think it would be ready in time to go into MWF.
 

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