ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Lonewolf]

I think the only reason GE would do a jv on EPE would be to STOP India getting the knowhow required to build reasonably advanced jet engines. And to get masses of rupees into the bargain.

Why do I say that? If India did a jv with SAFRAN or RR, India might get enough knowhow to be able to develop her own engine some time in the 2030's or 2040's (assuming India makes a strategic commitment to invest in gas turbine R&D to gain more knowledge).

My take: firstly, US is too risky politically (possible US Congress interference with supply) so don't do a deal with an American jet OEM. Secondly, an American OEM - or Congress - may prevent ToT transfer. I think that India stands a better chance of gaining the expertise to make engines in the future by a tie up with a European OEM.

Designing, building and testing indigenous engines is the goal isn't it?

Leave it ,that deal with ge is long dead

 

[Spitfire9]

Leave it ,that deal with ge is long dead

Good to hear. What do you think of the chance of a JV with RR - almost non-existent/slim/average/good/very good/excellent. And when, if there is a deal -2021/2022/2023?

 

[Lonewolf]

Good to hear. What do you think of the chance of a JV with RR - almost non-existent/slim/average/good/very good/excellent. And when, if there is a deal -2021/2022/2023?

Can't comment but discussion are going on , I would rate that at good , till some more info comes out ,but this is our critical time ,we need it now or never .

Feasibility studies were ongoing right now too .

So actual rnd and design work may start next year if things turn out to be good

 

[MonaLazy]

only reason GE would do a jv on EPE

US/GE are more than willing to do a JV for the venerated EPE- but they will only go so far as local manufacturing while retaining full control over engine IP and sharing nothing with India. So that ends there.

Safran had proposed full transfer of know-how for engine making but stalled over differences in pricing mechanism of the deal. Besides M88-2 core+Kaveri was only offering 84-85 afterburning kNs while IAF set its sights on the 90-96 kN class which meant only GE F414 & EJ200 qualify.

The M88-4 tech was also on offer but it was never actually built- needs a larger fan, new LP turbine and afterburner. Many more years of work funded at India's expense.

RR has proposed full ownership of IP with India. But when was the last time they built a full high performance jet engine- either with EJ200 or ADVENT (only Phase I & II with GE for 5 years before GE & P&W were chosen to continue work in 2012) they only worked on bits and pieces. This program looks like India and UK will explore the unknowns together.

Kaveri itself may now see active development only as the dry derivative of 47-50kN class to power 15 tonne UCAVs to enter production in the 2030s. Think they are developing the working prototype which will be sent to Gromov Flight Research for certification.

So for the new 110 kN engine outside the US (F414 EPE) no country has or is within striking range of the requisite tech. IMO the model that will work is to rope in the best of public (GTRE, MIDHANI among others..) and private sector (Bharat Forge, L&T among others..) in India and declare it a national mission (no dearth of funds) like IGMDP & give it 10 years. For specific areas like materials, special alloys or help with testing the engine (knowing how to measure what's going on inside an engine to iron out its kinks is one of the most well-guarded secrets of aviation majors) consultancy may be sought from RR or Safran via tendering. We can spin off a whole range of jet engines from this partnership.

 

[Lonewolf]

US/GE are more than willing to do a JV for the venerated EPE- but they will only go so far as local manufacturing while retaining full control over engine IP and sharing nothing with India. So that ends there.

Safran had proposed full transfer of know-how for engine making but stalled over differences in pricing mechanism of the deal. Besides M88-2 core+Kaveri was only offering 84-85 afterburning kNs while IAF set its sights on the 90-96 kN class which meant only GE F414 & EJ200 qualify.

The M88-4 tech was also on offer but it was never actually built- needs a larger fan, new LP turbine and afterburner. Many more years of work funded at India's expense.

RR has proposed full ownership of IP with India. But when was the last time they built a full high performance jet engine- either with EJ200 or ADVENT (only Phase I & II with GE for 5 years before GE & P&W were chosen to continue work in 2012) they only worked on bits and pieces. This program looks like India and UK will explore the unknowns together.

Kaveri itself may now see active development only as the dry derivative of 47-50kN class to power 15 tonne UCAVs to enter production in the 2030s. Think they are developing the working prototype which will be sent to Gromov Flight Research for certification.

So for the new 110 kN engine outside the US (F414 EPE) no country has or is within striking range of the requisite tech. IMO the model that will work is to rope in the best of public (GTRE, MIDHANI among others..) and private sector (Bharat Forge, L&T among others..) in India and declare it a national mission (no dearth of funds) like IGMDP & give it 10 years. For specific areas like materials, special alloys or help with testing the engine (knowing how to measure what's going on inside an engine to iron out its kinks is one of the most well-guarded secrets of aviation majors) consultancy may be sought from RR or Safran via tendering. We can spin off a whole range of jet engines from this partnership.

RR have done some niche research on their own for tempest , would be best bet for jv

 

[MonaLazy]

RR have done some niche research on their own for tempest , would be best bet for jv

Show me the money engine!

We have been also doing niche research at GTRE for 40 years. End result?

Also can't miss how they were squeezed out of the ADVENT program at the business end of the program so core technologies stay within US in the shape of XA100 and XA101.

 

[Lonewolf]

Show me the money engine!

We have been also doing niche research at GTRE for 40 years. End result?

Scale is not as big as ge ,but we need to accept it , we may spend big and develop our metallurgy but need help on engine design .


Also they need similar engine as of us ,so should exploit opportunity now .

We may hit a bargain for it , and can develop it in time

 

[SUPERPOWER]

Scale is not as big as ge ,but we need to accept it , we may spend big and develop our metallurgy but need help on engine design .


Also they need similar engine as of us ,so should exploit opportunity now .

We may hit a bargain for it , and can develop it in time

I dont understand what kind of R & D GTRE is doing...atleast they should be held axxountable for gulping taxpayers money without any end result...

 

[Lonewolf]

I dont understand what kind of R & D GTRE is doing...atleast they should be held axxountable for gulping taxpayers money without any end result...

Well see for yourself , check out the money spent on engine development , and done on gtre ,fuck up were there but not all and all

 

[MonaLazy]

Also they need similar engine as of us ,so should exploit opportunity now

If it seems too good to be true it probably is.

Q1. What does RR 'really' gain out of it? Is there anything they cannot accomplish by going alone?

Q2. I think the "controllable 3rd stream bleed" in the infographic means adaptive cycle? i.e a 6th generation military jet engine- where has that been even enunciated as a requirement by IAF for AMCA?

also, from here, RR are focussed on E2SG- again a system IAF has not so far demanded.

Q3. Where else in the whole world has this model ever worked? A well-established jet engine maker spoon-feeding a lesser power so they can in turn start making powerful engines themselves? Is there even one instance?

I still believe laboring alone as a nation is the only way to do it. We need to follow the Japanese XF 9 model.

 

[Lonewolf]

If it seems too good to be true it probably is.

Q1. What does RR 'really' gain out of it? Is there anything they cannot accomplish by going alone?

Q2. I think the "controllable 3rd stream bleed" in the infographic means adaptive cycle? i.e a 6th generation military jet engine- where has that been even enunciated as a requirement by IAF for AMCA?

View attachment 93004

also, from here, RR are focussed on E2SG- again a system IAF has not so far demanded.

Q3. Where else in the whole world has this model ever worked? A well-established jet engine maker spoon-feeding a lesser power so they can in turn start making powerful engines themselves? Is there even one instance?

I still believe laboring alone as a nation is the only way to do it. We need to follow the Japanese XF 9 model.

Money ... , RR is going to be out of buisness if it don't find a money source or program , tempest need money and specs will be high but for that rr need to improve design , also that alone won't suffice their monetary demands , so they need it too .

Better engine won't be issue but sub par will surely be ,and engine is nothing you make every year . This will be the powerplant for tedbf , amca mk 2 , Tejas mk 2 replacement , and any future project , maybe for our high bypass engine too

 

[Vaibhavseafarer]

No body will help in engine tech.
There will some clauses in agreement which will make it not so feasible.
Engine making is self learning art which requires
Money, Time and RnD

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

Kaveri would have been more successful had India invested in test facilities and flying test bed a decade ago. Currently, DRDO has to go to Russia for these things and they charge exhorbitant amounts of money.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

hm looks like the radar for mk2 has been under testing for quite some time....from drdo TF

View attachment 92924

By the time LCM mk2 becomes operational, gallerium nitrate base radar will be ready. It will have the capability to detect even stealth from a long distance. A very good progress in active electronics Scan Arrey Radar is made. Uttam mk1 is under the final stage of testing. Uttam mk2 with higher TR module is designed and two units shall be assemble within coming six months. Subsequently, gallium nitride based Uttam will be designed and realised. Many mechanism such as track while search shall remain same. So functioning and software writting should not have much problem as it will require smsll twikings only.

 

[HariPrasad-1]

View attachment 92887

Though both F414-INS6 & F-414 EPE have the same dimensions, the airflow requirements are different.

If the 10% jump from F-404-IN20 to F-414-INS6 necessitated a new fighter with enlarged air intakes, there is no reason to believe another 10% jump from F-414-INS6 to F-414 EPE will not need a completely new fighter around it.

Also, here's the long answer of why no F-414 EPE... Infact why no American engine for the AMCA Mk2 because Americans will simply not share core tech. So, we have to look at second rung powers like France (Safran) & UK (RR) who may be more malleable in the face of Indian Rupees- lots and lots of them.


The entry of F-15 EX in MMRCA brings engine by P&W against its arch-rival GE for the first time in a market dominated by GE. 40 Tejas MK1 and 83 Tejas Mk1A will be powered by F404 and India’s upcoming Tejas MK2 will also be powered by F414 which have made GE undisputed market leader in India, as India works on development of more locally dvlpd jets to meet its dmnd. GE is likely to corner engine orders n spare parts orders wrth billions in coming yrs frm India as ech aircraft requires nearly 3.5 engines ovr its airframe life India and the United States for long-discussed to jointly develop a jet engine based on GE’s F414 EPE for India’s AMCA bt failed to set up any jv yet. GE had agreed to set up local assembly of its engines wth HAL for its F414 whn it won an order for 99 engines a few years back. GE also has agreed to set up a company-owned subsidiary in India if India agrees to buy F-21 or F-18 in its MMRCA. GE is also willing to mfg locally 110kn class engine for India’s AMCA program while maintaining full controls over its core technology and IPRs due to which talks b/w India and the United States JV engine for AMCA failed due to India’s insistence of having Indian control over the local company and access and transfer to the core tech. P&W has bn out of the Indian market and allowed GE to dominate the Indian market due to India’s preference f its engines which begin in the late ’80s when it was selected to power India’s LCA program. F-15 EX on offer to India for the first time brings P & W F100 engines to India. While GE dominates world over the sale of its military engines in American made jets like F-16, F-18, it also found in Gripen, T-50, and Tejas but P&W was limited to supply and maintenance of spares for 50 F117 engines for the 11 C-17 transporters in service with IAF. But P&W has some advantage that GE doesn’t have is that both its F119-PW-100 and F135 are the only engines that are powering America’s 5th gen fighter jets F-22 Raptor and F-35. There have been no official records that India and P&W at any point of time had engaged with each other fr d possible development of engine jointly, but US Govt officials might allow other aero-engine makers to engage with India other thn GE due to prolonged stalling which ultimately lead to the dismantling of d joint study group which was engaged in talks for jv of the engine for the AMCA. P&W hs d tech n manpower caliber to dvlp an engine to cater to meet d demands of the AMCA. 100-PW-229 on offer to India with F-15EX is not only reliable bt more thn 7k F100 engines hv bn produced n pwrs 99% of all USAF F-15 and 62% of the world’s inventory of F-16. F100 Engine Enhancement Package(EEP) launched in 2k4 hs raised d engine depot inspection interval frm 4300 to 6k which can produce 129.7 kN wet. A detuned F100 EEP or a new engine based on the core tech of the sm could be good enough to pwr AMCA Mk2 (2035 production) only if Pratt & Whitney is willing to go extra miles then GE in terms of sharing of the core tec

We should rather try our own 110 KN after burner trust engine with dry thrust of around 65 kilo Newton. If we are able to do this either on our own or in partnership with some firm, we will be by and large independent in manufacturing the Hi Tech plane. We should make something like GE 414 EPE of our own.

 

[MonaLazy]

RR is going to be out of buisness

Do look up their products & services here. They are not going out of business anytime soon. They are well diversified, besides, Tempest is backed by at least two strong economies of UK & Italy. Money should not be a problem.

Better engine won't be issue but sub par will surely be

Why pay for something you don't need?

Also just for the sake of nostalgia, circa 2007:

The Hindu : Karnataka News : Kaveri engine for Tejas: more talks on French, Russian offers

Wayback Machine

web.archive.org

Kaveri engine gathers momentum | Frontier India Defence & Strategic News Service

Kaveri engine and Kaveri Marine

web.archive.org

It's a repeat of the same dog & pony show. Seems almost as though time is standing still.

 

[Spitfire9]

RR has proposed full ownership of IP with India. But when was the last time they built a full high performance jet engine- either with EJ200 or ADVENT (only Phase I & II with GE for 5 years before GE & P&W were chosen to continue work in 2012) they only worked on bits and pieces. This program looks like India and UK will explore the unknowns together.

It appears that one of the 'bits and pieces' RR worked on was designing and building the core of a variable cycle engine for the ADVENT programme.

Rolls-Royce set to start testing ADVENT core before year end

Rolls-Royce's Liberty Works is set to start testing the core section of its US Air Force Research Laboratory-sponsored (AFRL) ADaptive Versatile ENgine Technology...

www.flightglobal.com

In 2015 US DOD awarded RR a contract:

...to develop revolutionary and innovative technologies by the 2017 timeframe that will permit an order of magnitude increase in turbo-propulsion affordability over the year 2000 state-of-the-art technology.

Work will be performed at Indianapolis, Indiana, and is expected to be complete by June 23, 2023. This award is the result of a competitive acquisition with 34 offers received.

Contracts for June 24, 2015

CONTRACTS AIR FORCE Lockheed Martin Corp., Marietta, Georgia, has been awarded a $480,000,000 indefinite-delivery/indefinite-quantity contract for C-130J follow-on research and development

www.defense.gov

RR is currently working on designing an engine for the Tempest programme.

So I don't think that RR's last military jet engine design work was on ADVENT or F-136. If a JV with GTRE comes about, I do wonder how much of a useful contribution GTRE can actually make. Is there anything that GTRE knows that RR does not know ten times better? Just trying to be realistic here.

So for the new 110 kN engine outside the US (F414 EPE) no country has or is within striking range of the requisite tech.

I don't agree with that for one moment - see above.

IMO the model that will work is to rope in the best of public (GTRE, MIDHANI among others..) and private sector (Bharat Forge, L&T among others..) in India and declare it a national mission (no dearth of funds) like IGMDP & give it 10 years.

I am more optimistic that that would produce a useable engine than Kaveri but I do not think it would be a modern design if done in 10 years. Yes, I am an advocate of India learning how to make a jet engine. Might not be much compared to US/British/French engines but it would be a start just learning how to make something that works passably well.

However, India could use 1000+ fast jet engines in the 100kN-120kN class in the next 15 years or so and it makes sense to get involved with a company with a proven track record than to try project-leading a programme on one's own.

 

[MonaLazy]

variable cycle engine

All well and good! But that's simply not the ask! This discussion provides some perspective:

IAF has NOT said anywhere they want the current bleeding edge of engine tech- which understandably ANY engine maker in the world would be loath to part with. There may be no better way of putting this- but we are looking at GE 414 EPE/EJ200/EJ220 level of tech exactly. It has to be fully production-ised by 2028-30. That's it!

We want HPT & HPC tech (already 2 decade old by Western standards) to push the engine to 110kN and finally help with testing and certifying the engine. Even for GE to go from the current 414 to EPE, the tweaking would be about half a decade and a couple of billion dollars. We want the end product of that effort. We are certainly not looking for adaptive engine tech.

I do wonder how much of a useful contribution GTRE can actually make. Is there anything that GTRE knows that RR does not know ten times better? Just trying to be realistic here.

That's exactly my point. What's in it for RR? Besides a short summary of current GTRE tech capability is captured in that screenshot.

produce a useable engine than Kaveri

It need not be a replacement, it can build on the current tech base and be Kaveri++

but I do not think it would be a modern design if done in 10 years.

which is perfectly fine. We are benchmarking ourselves to 20 year old Western tech, have come a long way and are giving ourselves another 10 years to get there- which means we will be a full 3 decades behind US/British/French engines, but it means the road to the next generation will be fully under our control and maybe in a few decades we catch up to the bleeding edge.

get involved with a company with a proven track record than to try project-leading a programme on one's own.

While the former sounds better, we have been there before & it hasn't worked. I even pasted several links circa 2007. It is foolish to try the same thing over & over in anticipation of a different result. I'm in favour of the slow grovelling progress of the latter approach.

 

[MonaLazy]

HPT & HPC tech

Not meaning to offend but it looks like RR only brings HPT expertise from EJ200 to the table, HPCs being made by MTU..

 

[Spitfire9]

We are benchmarking ourselves to 20 year old Western tech, have come a long way and are giving ourselves another 10 years to get there- which means we will be a full 3 decades behind US/British/French engines, but it means the road to the next generation will be fully under our control and maybe in a few decades we catch up to the bleeding edge.

Sounds sensible.

About a JV versus trying to do-it-yourself...

I'm in favour of the slow grovelling progress of the latter approach.

India needed engines for LCA but never got round to producing one that worked, so bought foreign. Now AMCA Mk2 requires an engine but no foreign engine fits the bill.

India has plans to develop and build hundreds of fighters which will need engines. JV engines (if there is a 110kN JV deal) will come too late so India has to buy foreign again. However if RR is amenable to parting with some/lots of ToT in a JV, India could be involved in development, learn more than GTRE knows at the moment, manufacture some/most of the components and assemble all the engines (mostly as replacement engines).

Why go for no industrial benefit or increase in knowhow by financing EPE (say $2 billion) for 100 x AMCA Mk2 then paying perhaps $10 million per engine for 600 engines including replacements (another $6 billion), perhaps $7 million per engine for 200 x MWF, 50 x TEDBF, 40 x AMCA replacements - 580 replacement engines in all (another $4+ billion). All in all $12+ billion?

The alternative JV route would bring benefits in terms of knowledge acquired through GTRE work, ToT, IP as well as the benefits of producing JV engines in India. To me, a bargain at twice the cost of continued dependence on GE every time a fighter is produced in India.