ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Ar.gaurav28]

Very likely.. They'll have pressure to counter our AMCA. But not before 2030 I think.

Couldn’t agree more...it be b/w 2030-32 as till that time their economy could handle the load. But interesting development in geopolitics is USA asking for base in Pak after 9/21. If that happens don’t think China will give fc31 to them! Pak need USA for money they are stuck b/w the both...I believe Iran can get it before Pak if their interaction kept building the same pace as they are, they got oil money to burn!

If they didn't get their hands on some second hand F-16s and upgrade they'll go for another Chinese option pretty early.

they are planning for j10c many news reports from their country I have seen stating it & i guess due to this only USA have cleared the sale of 8 f16 block 50/52.

If we assume that the J-31 will hit snags and will start seeing induction only in the 2030 timeframe and PAF doesn't get new F-16s or upgrades or spares, then we can expect to see PAF field the J-10C

Yes, even if fc31 is ready for export they cant buy single jet will cost them 5-6 times junk fighter same way in its upkeep!
thus if they be purchasing any fighter in this decade that be either f16 or j10c

Capability gap between Bandar Block 3 and J-10C ?

same as was in maruti 800(without ac & power steering) & zen!
what would have happened if India would have bought lavi project from Israel!

You want IAF to induct a Jet which does not even exist !
How about HAL making some real planes and handing them over to IAF as well !

tejas mk1 exists and it was not just HAL but IAF responsible for the shortcomings, they acted as a shrewd consumer rather than trying to develop a platform together. Nothing is made clear from their side & IAF has a habit of keep changing it’s requirements.
I believe there is kick backs from foreign vendors aswell that’s what discourages them from buying & helping local production!

 

[onlinpunit]

Couldn’t agree more...it be b/w 2030-32 as till that time their economy could handle the load. But interesting development in geopolitics is USA asking for base in Pak after 9/21. If that happens don’t think China will give fc31 to them! Pak need USA for money they are stuck b/w the both...I believe Iran can get it before Pak if their interaction kept building the same pace as they are, they got oil money to burn!


they are planning for j10c many news reports from their country I have seen stating it & i guess due to this only USA have cleared the sale of 8 f16 block 50/52.


Yes, even if fc31 is ready for export they cant buy single jet will cost them 5-6 times junk fighter same way in its upkeep!
thus if they be purchasing any fighter in this decade that be either f16 or j10c


same as was in maruti 800(without ac & power steering) & zen!
what would have happened if India would have bought lavi project from Israel!


tejas mk1 exists and it was not just HAL but IAF responsible for the shortcomings, they acted as a shrewd consumer rather than trying to develop a platform together. Nothing is made clear from their side & IAF has a habit of keep changing it’s requirements.
I believe there is kick backs from foreign vendors aswell that’s what discourages them from buying & helping local production!

Really..So what changes were asked by IAF which forced HAL/ADA to slow down the development !

They took 6-7 years to move from IOC to FOC.
Who was at fault. ?

 

[Lonewolf]

Really..So what changes were asked by IAF which forced HAL/ADA to slow down the development !

They took 6-7 years to move from IOC to FOC.
Who was at fault. ?

Uncertain order , change in specifications , asking for integration of weapons and changing requirements ,not clearing dues .

 

[onlinpunit]

Uncertain order , change in specifications , asking for integration of weapons and changing requirements ,not clearing dues .

.
Uncertain orders : what does it even mean ? Where in the world have you seen a company crying for less order placed by customer. You make what customer orders.
Change in specs : development stated in 90s for LCA. You want same specs in 2021 for LCA ?
Asking for weapon integration : is that an issue ? Who should do weapon integration if not HAL. ?
Not clearing due : has anyone In HAL not got his salary due to money crunch ?

 

[Adrian Corvus]

FC-31 is actually progressing very well, better than J-20 did at this point.. It's their Teddy. Made solely for CATOBAR carrier ops, with internal AShM.
View attachment 92393

@Bleh is it possible to have the same IWB config with AMCA?

 

[Lonewolf]

.
Uncertain orders : what does it even mean ? Where in the world have you seen a company crying for less order placed by customer. You make what customer orders.
Change in specs : development stated in 90s for LCA. You want same specs in 2021 for LCA ?
Asking for weapon integration : is that an issue ? Who should do weapon integration if not HAL. ?
Not clearing due : has anyone In HAL not got his salary due to money crunch ?

Dude but it requires time , no need to jump in like a mad men , what if you finalize a product and then someone points out a problem which could have been fone in mid kf deveolpment and when you fix it they ask for some changes in other part ,then somewhere else ,but won't co operate from start .


Won't give you dues on time ,while being okay with money wasted in scams and pak fa and all .

 

[onlinpunit]

Dude but it requires time , no need to jump in like a mad men , what if you finalize a product and then someone points out a problem which could have been fone in mid kf deveolpment and when you fix it they ask for some changes in other part ,then somewhere else ,but won't co operate from start .


Won't give you dues on time ,while being okay with money wasted in scams and pak fa and all .

Can we have a list of changes demanded ( just or unjust) by IAF during development of LCA.
How many of them were placed after finalization of specs for IOC or FOC ?
Was there any limit mutually decided by all concerned party for development of LCA ?
Why 7 years was taken to move from IOC to FOC ?

 

[Lonewolf]

Can we have a list of changes demanded ( just or unjust) by IAF during development of LCA.
How many of them were placed after finalization of specs for IOC or FOC ?
Was there any limit mutually decided by all concerned party for development of LCA ?
Why 7 years was taken to move from IOC to FOC ?

When was ioc guven and when was production started ,why was order not placed after ioc .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Dude but it requires time , no need to jump in like a mad men , what if you finalize a product and then someone points out a problem which could have been fone in mid kf deveolpment and when you fix it they ask for some changes in other part ,then somewhere else ,but won't co operate from start .


Won't give you dues on time ,while being okay with money wasted in scams and pak fa and all .

The mess of Tejas was making of mismanagement by ADA GTRE etc .

This has been discussed in detail many times in this forum.

 

[Bleh]

@Bleh is it possible to have the same IWB config with AMCA?

I think so... If the CATS Hunter is less than 4m long.

Not 100% yet, but as of now our measurements point at the a chance of CATS Hunter being shorter than the AMCA internal-bay.

 

[Lonewolf]

The mess of Tejas was making of mismanagement by ADA GTRE etc .

This has been discussed in detail many times in this forum.

But not their alone

 

[Flying Dagger]

But not their alone

They were the project incharge so yes it's their mess alone.

Tejas were supposed to be 80-120 numbers initially to be followed up by a twin engine MCA / AMCA.

If it wasn't for the MMRCA cost escalation And jf-17 on Pakistani side there wouldn't have 300 planned tejas.

They have been negotiating for engine dev for a decade plus and still no result who should be blamed for that ?

 

[Lonewolf]

They were the project incharge so yes it's their mess alone.

Tejas were supposed to be 80-120 numbers initially to be followed up by a twin engine MCA / AMCA.

If it wasn't for the MMRCA cost escalation And jf-17 on Pakistani side there wouldn't have 300 planned tejas.

They have been negotiating for engine dev for a decade plus and still no result who should be blamed for that ?

Was they the head of negotiations ,deal was b to b ,and no involvement of goi , was they goal set were realistic or not .

 

[Flying Dagger]

Was they the head of negotiations ,deal was b to b ,and no involvement of goi , was they goal set were realistic or not .

They have been over projecting themselves and their capability making false promises for promotion etc.. despite knowing they can't fulfill them.

Kaveri was going to be dud it was written on the wall by linking Tejas with it, they only delayed the project.

GE F414 engine should have been picked in 2000s itself with epe upgrade but we are still negotiating.

 

[notaname]

Was they the head of negotiations ,deal was b to b ,and no involvement of goi , was they goal set were realistic or not .

And I want to add one more thing here when we say it was only fault of DRDO, ADA, other research and production agencies why don't we take in consideration the political whims there, was there no political pressure to import everything and stall many valuable projects, were babus didn't work according to thier political leanings we need to see the problem as a whole we can't see it in isolation and pin it down to single entity and also the killings of many important scientists (and of whom which we don't know how many were titled as suicide or heart attack).

 

[Spitfire9]

We might modify later. With F414 EPE and other improvements.

What EPE? Is India going to fund development of a foreign OEM's engine for a couple of hundred AMCA? I think that any expenditure in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars to procure an engine suitable for AMCA where India does not make the engine is misguided.

Buying a foreign engine does not move Indian technological knowhow forward, so helps perpetuate reliance on foreign engines for any future Indian fighter projects. Additionally, should India have a design that attracts export interest, the engine supplier may refuse to supply either for political reasons (don't like that country, so we will block supply of engines for a sale to it) or commercial reasons (we would rather sell our aircraft to that country, so we will block supply of engines for a sale of Indian aircraft to it).

If the situation is conducive to getting a good JV deal with RR, do it! Don't do another M2K production plant mistake or another C-17 mistake. Take advantage of a good opportunity ASAP. It would also be useful if AMCA Mk2 designers knew what engine Mk2 was going to have.

 

[warriorextreme]

You want IAF to induct a Jet which does not even exist !
How about HAL making some real planes and handing them over to IAF as well !

Tejas MK1 already exists, Tejas MK2 is a planned evolution based on inputs from IAF. IAF wants to be involved in giving inputs but not for buying the output? How else will indigenous industry develop if things remain on paper or in TD phase only.

 

[onlinpunit]

Tejas MK1 already exists, Tejas MK2 is a planned evolution based on inputs from IAF. IAF wants to be involved in giving inputs but not for buying the output? How else will indigenous industry develop if things remain on paper or in TD phase only.

The industries which run without accountability and have captive customers runs on crutches..!

 

[Flying Dagger]

What EPE? Is India going to fund development of a foreign OEM's engine for a couple of hundred AMCA? I think that any expenditure in the order of hundreds of millions of dollars to procure an engine suitable for AMCA where India does not make the engine is misguided.

Buying a foreign engine does not move Indian technological knowhow forward, so helps perpetuate reliance on foreign engines for any future Indian fighter projects. Additionally, should India have a design that attracts export interest, the engine supplier may refuse to supply either for political reasons (don't like that country, so we will block supply of engines for a sale to it) or commercial reasons (we would rather sell our aircraft to that country, so we will block supply of engines for a sale of Indian aircraft to it).

If the situation is conducive to getting a good JV deal with RR, do it! Don't do another M2K production plant mistake or another C-17 mistake. Take advantage of a good opportunity ASAP. It would also be useful if AMCA Mk2 designers knew what engine Mk2 was going to have.

F414 EPE isn't abt putting money for development/JV based on kaveri etc but ordering the product which will be costlier than the current engine but better. GE will require an order guarantee to produce it.

GTRE is free to do JV with anyone for a new engine. Both are different.

 

[warriorextreme]

The industries which run without accountability and have captive customers runs on crutches..!

This is not a salted peanuts making factory we are talking about. To develop an indigenous defence industry will requires buy in from the consumer as well. Accountability will of course need to be in place which I believe has been set in the contract for Tejas MK1A.