ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Flying Dagger]

from the first page of this thread-

Majority of these delay caused by top bureaucrats & change in top positions and their snail progress.
They took 1.5 years to conclude price of mk1a jets causing 2 year delay.
Three most important milestone are 1. first flight, 2. CCS/Sign of final deal, 3. FOC , if you consider User.

All things being true....

Real reason was over estimated capabilities of their own.


That mk2 was different. A slightly elongated one with better aerodynamics than what we have as per their claims.

Infact there were plans to move to mca a twin engine one in 2007-9 around which later became AMCA . Bottom line is you get to see a lot but don't believe until they get a working one.

That's why IAF is right to opt for Rafales . Even then there were people shouting against it. Actually Since 2010+ on this forum and others .

Time has changed though and many of those now talk about how good Mirage and rafale are.

 

[Flying Dagger]

I had spoken to a retired airforce officer employed by HAL back in 2016 .. He was involved with the lca mk1 .. He had not even heard about the tejas mk2 .. It was after this conversation that I started taking every timeline put out with extreme skepticism.

Most rumours are actually started by fanboys . They add 2 and 2 then makes it 22 . Reality is completely different.

 

[vishnugupt]

The art of deception by UN Generals often succeed making fools many fanboys.

The only delay from ADA is between Aug 2022 till role out of MWF. Rest of all allegations are lies.

This total lie that MWF has been In development since 2008. It was nonexistent till 2016.

Because Commitment by UN Generals was largely verbal, there was no clear cut requirement was given, UN Generals never asked for CDR review.

What actually happened a vicious cycle. Whatever demand UN Generals were giving through Dalaal media (Verbally) ADA was kept giving estimated timeline by simply adding +3 years.

Some examples:-
2008 :- Tejas underpower
ADA said will fly Tejas with new engine in 2012.

2011:- Tejas = Mig 21++,
ADA:- more refined Tejas mk 2 will fly in 2014.

2016:- serious talks on development
ADA:- flying date 2020.

2019:- CDR supposed to be clear
ADA:- First flight in 2022

 

[Johny_Baba]

I had spoken to a retired airforce officer employed by HAL back in 2016 .. He was involved with the lca mk1 .. He had not even heard about the tejas mk2 .. It was after this conversation that I started taking every timeline put out with extreme skepticism.

It means it was not even on HALs radar in 2016 .. Just because ADA liberally pulls out by timelines out of their ass does not mean that we need to believe them .. And a few days back another ex IAF office working for HAL has told us the actual timeline .. and ADA presentations still have 2024 as first flight lmao.

No fun .. Tejas was his job and he was committed to its success . Yes the confusion and disbelief you are feeling now was also what I felt back then .. But everything he told me back then about the LCA project and the fact that LCA mk2 was not even something HAL was involved in has played out in the actual delivery dates . Hence today press releases by ADA and some other DRDO labs boosted by clueless "defense jurnos" are worth toilet paper as far as I am concerned.

Yawn .. I typically get this same response from defence fans/followers when I tell this story ..I got info from the horses mouth, what is going on on this forum or in the media is worth nothing .. or at best serves an entertainment purpose. It's ok if you don't believe me . But don't be surprised when things get delayed randomly .. The state of these projects is never as rosy as is told in the media.

And after all that tejas mk2 will have its roll out (tentatively) in 2025.
View attachment 195939

I'm actually now intrigued . The conversation I had with this officer was offhand in a social setting and honestly I did not know enough back then to ask him good questions. I have asked for another face to face conversation and will reveal his name if he agrees.

Even funnier is that I was acquainted with the people who were involved in project back then ... These people drained me of all copium. This 2 decade slogfest makes total sense to me .. There was no conspiracy by the babooz or the IAF .. It literally took them till 2019 to get the jet service ready.
If they actually get the mk2 flying by 2026 I will be soo happy.

When you want a up to date finished product with all capabilities from day one then you need to learn to be patient.

If you compare light weight aircraft development like Korea, Taiwan, China with India then you will notice other countries airforces accepted half baked products and gradually upgraded them while UN generals demanded AESA radar from day one.

I don’t know who Carrom board you are talking who have zero idea about Mk2. Isn’t itself funny and shows Carrom board warriors situational awareness.

In 2008, when UN generals came to know about bitter fact that Tejas is becoming reality. Soon, UN generals declared Tejas Underpowered. In return ADA promised installation of GE 414 in Tejas mk1 Hence Tejas MK2 born.

Surprisingly, UN generals agree for this incremental upgrade in 2008. ADA soon ordered GE 414 engines. Around 2012, UN generals again came up with list of comprehensive deficiencies about in Tejas and stated merely changing engine would not be enough.

After cancellation of MMRCA deal, Late DM Manohar Parrikar asked UN generals to give their final words what they want in MK2 around 2016. This was the time when Concept of current (Canard and 17500kg mtow ) Tejas mk2 was born.

you are not alone mahabali karn, a friend (who's actual certified pilot by qualifications - just doesn't work as pilot) from this very forum, met one of the test pilot who landed N-LCA on the INS Vikramaditya and others from HAL during 2020, and oh boy the things he said are very much similar to what you were told back in 2016,
kaapi pasting my posts from past
#################################################################################
yes and it's called Omni-Role Combat Aircraft = ORCA

but before getting excited over it let me kopy-paste what an esteemed member from the forum itself was informed about ORCA when he himself asked about it to a test pilot of LCA project himself during some temporary meetup at Lucknow airport
"I was having conversation with one of test pilots involved in LCA program . He simply called TEDBF as pipe dream . Eventually Navy will ask for F-18 in 2026/2027" - in February, 2020

so if TEDBF doesn't happen then forget about ORCA

some additional stuff from that chatter
- "He said even follow on order of 36 Rafale looks tough now . He said Rafale is very expensive for IAF and IN"
- "N LCA at it's current avatar can easily carry 4 derby and 2 R73"

source - https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/ins-vikrant-aircraft-carrier-iac.77/post-2332454

#################################################################################

He was part of the team that landed N LCA on flight deck of INS Vikramaditya. I can provide names but it would create unnecessary uproar when people aren't willing to listen to what actual people involved in these things say.

Also statements for public consumption vs banters that you have among trusted people.

source - https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/ins-vikrant-aircraft-carrier-iac.77/post-2332825

#################################################################################

so yeah, make out whatever you want from this but after this conversations and observing things without going high on hopium i too kind of don't follow so called official dates and numbers when it comes to such big projects and promises and all anymore;

the only proper update we are seeing here from 2020 talk above is TEDBF designs are happening as we have been given scaled down models and some renders and overall specifications and so, but as long as it doesn't turn into actual flyworthy prototypes dates given are to be doubted - at least by me

likewise, MK2 Tejas "MCA" and others are into similar book for me

 

[Flying Dagger]

you are not alone mahabali karn, a friend (who's actual certified pilot by qualifications - just doesn't work as pilot) from this very forum, met one of the test pilot who landed N-LCA on the INS Vikramaditya and others from HAL during 2020, and oh boy the things he said are very much similar to what you were told back in 2016,
kaapi pasting my posts from past
#################################################################################
yes and it's called Omni-Role Combat Aircraft = ORCA

but before getting excited over it let me kopy-paste what an esteemed member from the forum itself was informed about ORCA when he himself asked about it to a test pilot of LCA project himself during some temporary meetup at Lucknow airport
"I was having conversation with one of test pilots involved in LCA program . He simply called TEDBF as pipe dream . Eventually Navy will ask for F-18 in 2026/2027" - in February, 2020

so if TEDBF doesn't happen then forget about ORCA

some additional stuff from that chatter
- "He said even follow on order of 36 Rafale looks tough now . He said Rafale is very expensive for IAF and IN"
- "N LCA at it's current avatar can easily carry 4 derby and 2 R73"

source - https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/ins-vikrant-aircraft-carrier-iac.77/post-2332454

#################################################################################

He was part of the team that landed N LCA on flight deck of INS Vikramaditya. I can provide names but it would create unnecessary uproar when people aren't willing to listen to what actual people involved in these things say.

Also statements for public consumption vs banters that you have among trusted people.

source - https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/ins-vikrant-aircraft-carrier-iac.77/post-2332825

#################################################################################

so yeah, make out whatever you want from this but after this conversations and observing things without going high on hopium i too kind of don't follow so called official dates and numbers when it comes to such big projects and promises and all anymore;

the only proper update we are seeing here from 2020 talk above is TEDBF designs are happening as we have been given scaled down models and some renders and overall specifications and so, but as long as it doesn't turn into actual flyworthy prototypes dates given are to be doubted - at least by me

likewise, MK2 Tejas "MCA" and others are into similar book for me

Absolutely right... Though mk2 is a done case since everything is ready there.

By 2030 we will have a production line churning them out.

IN need true strike capabilities with range and load which Tejas doesn't offer.

Rest we should just buy 26 Rafale and chill.

No point investing billions of dollar to build and maintain an aircraft carrier fleet without an aircraft that can defend and provide edge.

 

[ersakthivel]

It means it was not even on HALs radar in 2016 .. Just because ADA liberally pulls out by timelines out of their ass does not mean that we need to believe them .. And a few days back another ex IAF office working for HAL has told us the actual timeline .. and ADA presentations still have 2024 as first flight lmao.

It seems entire HAL & IAF are in DFI nowadays,. Good development .

Detailed design drawings We re sent to HAL & tier 2 vendors, only after IAF cleared CDR in June 2021

And CCS sanction & financial disbursal happened only in Sept 2022,

So without money how can mfg take place?

Time lines given earlier were with the hope that IAF would clear CDR earlier ,

But it didn't happen.

Even fr an in production fighter , 36 months are needed fr first fighter to arrive after financial deal closure.



In 2014 IAF ask was fr a fighter without canards, just a fuselage plug , new engines with corresponding air inlet enlargement,

ADA did the design , & hoped IAF will accept it.

But after 83 Tejas Mk1A with AESA went through, IAF immediate Mig21 replacement needs were taken care of ,
So TejasMk2 specs were changed by IAF, with additional canards , with same length increase of 2014 model (
earlier Mk2 was to carry lesser loads with lesser fuel capacity, without canards)






Then TejasMk2 scope was enhanced again by IAF in 2019 ,to GRIPEN E spec line

and canards meant detailed tests had to be carried out at ONERA besides new CFDs by NAL.

So no HAL employee has any idea about Mk2 is natural

Because things were happening at ONERA & NAL

Only in June 2021 IAF satisfied itself with Mk2 data presented to them by ADA and cleared CDR

and CCS gave financial sanction in 2022 September.

So definite 36 months will be needed after that.

In the meantime if IAF wants urgent fighters , they can always order extra Mk1As , as it is being hinted



So you don't HV to worry about "from where ADA guys are pulling out which stuff" immediately.

There is no urgency fr it,

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Absolutely right... Though mk2 is a done case since everything is ready there.

By 2030 we will have a production line churning them out.

IN need true strike capabilities with range and load which Tejas doesn't offer.

Rest we should just buy 26 Rafale and chill.

No point investing billions of dollar to build and maintain an aircraft carrier fleet without an aircraft that can defend and provide edge.

TBH we are going for downsized bramhos (bramhos NG) anyway, I bet we could strap them on to mig 29s as a strike platform.

Tejas could provide air cover, with migs as the strike team.

 

[Flying Dagger]

TBH we are going for downsized bramhos (bramhos NG) anyway, I bet we could strap them on to mig 29s as a strike platform.

Tejas could provide air cover, with migs as the strike team.

For a carrier fleet ?

Mig29k will be done soon.

We do need replacement. Teddy will come after 2035 onwards.

 

[skunk works]

When you want a up to date finished product with all capabilities from day one then you need to learn to be patient.

If you compare light weight aircraft development like Korea, Taiwan, China with India then you will notice other countries airforces accepted half baked products and gradually upgraded them while UN generals demanded AESA radar from day one.

I don’t know who Carrom board you are talking who have zero idea about Mk2. Isn’t itself funny and shows Carrom board warriors situational awareness.

In 2008, when UN generals came to know about bitter fact that Tejas is becoming reality. Soon, UN generals declared Tejas Underpowered. In return ADA promised installation of GE 414 in Tejas mk1 Hence Tejas MK2 born.

Surprisingly, UN generals agree for this incremental upgrade in 2008. ADA soon ordered GE 414 engines. Around 2012, UN generals again came up with list of comprehensive deficiencies about in Tejas and stated merely changing engine would not be enough.

After cancellation of MMRCA deal, Late DM Manohar Parrikar asked UN generals to give their final words what they want in MK2 around 2016. This was the time when Concept of current (Canard and 17500kg mtow ) Tejas mk2 was born.

IAF jernails don't want anything. They want to have their asses handed to them by a weaker and smaller enemy on a regular basis so they can then go crying to the press with "if we had this other (imported) wunderwaffen we would totally have licked them guys!!"

It's literally like these guys don't pay attention to rapid prototype philosophy followed by top UK and US defense contractors.
Fucking BUILD and fly something, then improve it.
These clowns want a finished product on day one. And the R&D clowns then fantasize that foreign countries will buy the product when the home air force hasn't!!

 

[Flying Dagger]

IAF jernails don't want anything. They want to have their asses handed to them by a weaker and smaller enemy on a regular basis so they can then go crying to the press with "if we had this other (imported) wunderwaffen we would totally have licked them guys!!"

It's literally like these guys don't pay attention to rapid prototype philosophy followed by top UK and US defense contractors.
Fucking BUILD and fly something, then improve it.
These clowns want a finished product on day one. And the R&D clowns then fantasize that foreign countries will buy the product when the home air force hasn't!!

IAF called out on Tejas in 2006-7 itself But they kept on pushing the same to IAF.

If they were smarter would have worked on Tejas mk2 actively since then.


IAF needed jets since the 70s and never got what they actually needed.

Let's talk about Jaguars a political purchase.

Mirage 2k ---- For 30 years + only negotiation and bought only 50 + a few second hand later now.

Mig 29 didn't bought enough to make a difference.

Rafale didn't bought enough.

So they fell back to buy more and more Sukhoi 30 from 140 their initial requirement of such type to 274.


The main problem is management of projects that we take on.

 

[NutCracker]

IAF called out on Tejas in 2006-7 itself But they kept on pushing the same to IAF.

If they were smarter would have worked on Tejas mk2 actively since then.

IAF needed jets since the 70s and never got what they actually needed.

Let's talk about Jaguars a political purchase.

Mirage 2k ---- For 30 years + only negotiation and bought only 50 + a few second hand later now.

Mig 29 didn't bought enough to make a difference.

Rafale didn't bought enough.

So they fell back to buy more and more Sukhoi 30 from 140 their initial requirement of such type to 274.


The main problem is management of projects that we take on.

If IAF was smarter they would've replaced Mig21 with MK1 by now.

All those medals on the chest and yet if IAF jurnails didn't learn that we are not US where every comicbook level demand will be turned into reality then we should better start investigating the institutions where these chaps come from.

70 years and they have seen all the process of procurement and the geo-politics attached to it, yet they didn't bother to give chance to domestic product which can defeat flying coffin hands down.

Did anyone ask IAF jurnails if they actually thought to replace 50 Mirage, 130 Jaguars and 60 Mig29 , and 100 Mig21 with just 114 MRFA??

MRFA = 100 bimari ka ek Raamban chooran thele pe bik raha hai, khareed ke usko gutak jao.

 

[johnj]

If IAF was smarter they would've replaced Mig21 with MK1 by now.

All those medals on the chest and yet if IAF jurnails didn't learn that we are not US where every comicbook level demand will be turned into reality then we should better start investigating the institutions where these chaps come from.

70 years and they have seen all the process of procurement and the geo-politics attached to it, yet they didn't bother to give chance to domestic product which can defeat flying coffin hands down.

Did anyone ask IAF jurnails if they actually thought to replace 50 Mirage, 130 Jaguars and 60 Mig29 , and 100 Mig21 with just 114 MRFA??

MRFA = 100 bimari ka ek Raamban chooran thele pe bik raha hai, khareed ke usko gutak jao.

IAF already started replacing mig21 with lca, and ordered 123 jets so far & more orders in future.
The minor delay [20 years] is due to US sanctions, UK inefficiency to deliver some parts on time & covid, now everything is sorted out & lca mk1 soon enter into mass production.
MMRCA- Its not 126 jets, but 180 & these were not a replacement of mig29 or m2k. FGFA replaces mig29 & m2k.
Since all the plan of IAF failed, IAF increased the capability of lcamk2 to mmrca level.
MRFA is an urgent requirement, & additional 54 rafale is ok to fill the gap until mk2 is ready.

 

[NutCracker]

IAF already started replacing mig21 with lca, and ordered 123 jets so far & more orders in future.
The minor delay [20 years] is due to US sanctions, UK inefficiency to deliver some parts on time & covid, now everything is sorted out & lca mk1 soon enter into mass production.
MMRCA- Its not 126 jets, but 180 & these were not a replacement of mig29 or m2k. FGFA replaces mig29 & m2k.
Since all the plan of IAF failed, IAF increased the capability of lcamk2 to mmrca level.
MRFA is an urgent requirement, & additional 54 rafale is ok to fill the gap until mk2 is ready.

It's not the IAF who gave order of 83 extra. It's has been shoved down.

And what about 130 Jaguars ? What was going to replace them ??

MMRCA going to have 180 planes

I would need source for that.

If it's true then I salute the amount of big brain involved in IAF that deduced that we would've been financially capable to operate
200+ MKI (ordered before MRCA saga) and 60 Mig29k, 130 jaguars, ANDDD..
180 more twin engine MWF all together.

 

[johnj]

200+ MKI (ordered before MRCA saga) and 60 Mig29k, 130 jaguars, ANDDD..
180 more twin engine MWF all together.

Its not 200+ MKI in the first place, but around 150
180 nos of EU MRCA jets, a requirement arise during 1999, after Kargil and fill the holes created during replacement of mig27 & mig23.
ANDD 144 FGFA, 12 sqn [min] of LCA both mk1 & mk2.
Jaguars need engines, mig29 early retirement, mki's availability rate dropped below 50%.
Now- existing 36 rafale + additional 114 mrca = 150.

I would need source for that.

Its hard to find source for 1.5 decade old news article.

It's not the IAF who gave order of 83 extra. It's has been shoved down.

Its the IAF who gave order of 83 extra including trainers.

And what about 130 Jaguars ? What was going to replace them ??

Mk2. AMCA.

 

[johnj]

It's not the IAF who gave order of 83 extra. It's has been shoved down.

And what about 130 Jaguars ? What was going to replace them ??




I would need source for that.

If it's true then I salute the amount of big brain involved in IAF that deduced that we would've been financially capable to operate
200+ MKI (ordered before MRCA saga) and 60 Mig29k, 130 jaguars, ANDDD..
180 more twin engine MWF all together.

Also I find a link from wiki IAF to buy all 126 aircraft from one company & ''He said there was no proposal at the moment to increase the order to 200 aircraft but "a review after induction, based on cost-benefit analysis, is of course possible in future" & I read a 1.5 decade old article [non eng] saying 126 plus 54 additional follow on in future.

 

[NutCracker]

Its not 200+ MKI in the first place, but around 150
180 nos of EU MRCA jets, a requirement arise during 1999, after Kargil and fill the holes created during replacement of mig27 & mig23.
ANDD 144 FGFA, 12 sqn [min] of LCA both mk1 & mk2.
Jaguars need engines, mig29 early retirement, mki's availability rate dropped below 50%.
Now- existing 36 rafale + additional 114 mrca = 150.

Its hard to find source for 1.5 decade old news article.

Its the IAF who gave order of 83 extra including trainers.

Mk2. AMCA.

You can see that if you remove 2007 and 2011 orders.

We already had 190-200 MKI ordered by 2000 before anyone even started talking about European MRCA.

 

[johnj]

View attachment 197439View attachment 197440
You can see that if you remove 2007 and 2011 orders.

We already had 190-200 MKI ordered by 2000 before anyone even started talking about European MRCA.

Unfortunately need of 200 EU jets arise in 1999-2000 & additional 140 happened in 2004- last year of NDA.
And Heavy class ac availability fall during wartime [mki case is worse]- not a good choice in nos & NDA don't have other options except mig29. Once UPA regain rule, US lifted sanctions & IAF demanded 100+ EU jets [m2k].
Note- During balakot strike IAF used m2k for dropping bombs not mki.
These all were past, when kca pgrm is a big ''?'' now situation is different with a major issue PLAAF, 114 mrfa unnecessary- additional 54 rafale is enough. and lca under mass production.

 

[NutCracker]

Unfortunately need of 200 EU jets arise in 1999-2000 & additional 140 happened in 2004- last year of NDA.
And Heavy class ac availability fall during wartime [mki case is worse]- not a good choice in nos & NDA don't have other options except mig29. Once UPA regain rule, US lifted sanctions & IAF demanded 100+ EU jets [m2k].
Note- During balakot strike IAF used m2k for dropping bombs not mki.
These all were past, when kca pgrm is a big ''?'' now situation is different with a major issue PLAAF, 114 mrfa unnecessary- additional 54 rafale is enough. and lca under mass production.

What kind of EU jet was available back then in 1999-2000 ?

We were recently under US sanctions so trusting US and buying Grippen was out of the question. Eurofighter wasn't even named typhoon back then .
UK and Germany got there first production craft in 2003.it leaves Rafale only.

 

[Johny_Baba]

can someone please explain me how much time it takes to build an Arjun from beginning? like it's so many years and yet we just seeing "2 Mk1A inducted and 114 on order" since the time it used to be called Mk2

even with the orders where are these tanks ?

 

[jai jaganath]

can someone please explain me how much time it takes to build an Arjun from beginning? like it's so many years and yet we just seeing "2 Mk1A inducted and 114 on order" since the time it used to be called Mk2

even with the orders where are these tanks ?

Those will start from 2026 and end by 2030
By raflanker/alpha defense