ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[NutCracker]

What kind of EU jet was available back then in 1999-2000 ?

We were recently under US sanctions so trusting US and buying Grippen was out of the question. Eurofighter wasn't even named typhoon back then .
UK and Germany got there first production craft in 2003.it leaves Rafale only.

We started recieving 140 in 2004 ,

Order was placed in 2000 itself.
You can see in the image

 

[johnj]

What kind of EU jet was available back then in 1999-2000 ?

We were recently under US sanctions so trusting US and buying Grippen was out of the question. Eurofighter wasn't even named typhoon back then .
UK and Germany got there first production craft in 2003.it leaves Rafale only.

M2K. mmrca started with rfi for f16, m2k, mig29- at the end it became- sh, f16, mig35, jas39, eft & rafale & only rafale[france] & eft[italy] in actual competition.
Eu jets- tornado, mirage, saab fighter jet. [and ofcourse harrier] but iaf only interested in m2k.
before typhoon, there is tornado.

 

[Flying Dagger]

If IAF was smarter they would've replaced Mig21 with MK1 by now.

All those medals on the chest and yet if IAF jurnails didn't learn that we are not US where every comicbook level demand will be turned into reality then we should better start investigating the institutions where these chaps come from.

70 years and they have seen all the process of procurement and the geo-politics attached to it, yet they didn't bother to give chance to domestic product which can defeat flying coffin hands down.

Did anyone ask IAF jurnails if they actually thought to replace 50 Mirage, 130 Jaguars and 60 Mig29 , and 100 Mig21 with just 114 MRFA??

MRFA = 100 bimari ka ek Raamban chooran thele pe bik raha hai, khareed ke usko gutak jao.

Have answered same thing multiple times..

There was no comic book level demand but just.

Do you think the current Tejas mk2 path is comic level stuff ?

MRFA aka MMRCA wasn't for just 126 either initially it was 240 Mirages then 126+ more .option etc etc.


having 126 potent one is better than what was offered.

the officers are there to provide best option for national security and not to play politics.

they have seen the days when top of the line mig 21 and others were churned out in bulks.

they have also seen ADA/ HAL doing shitty stuff so they know and value themselves.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Have answered same thing multiple times..

There was no comic book level demand but just.

Do you think the current Tejas mk2 path is comic level stuff ?

MRFA aka MMRCA wasn't for just 126 either initially it was 240 Mirages then 126+ more .option etc etc.


having 126 potent one is better than what was offered.

the officers are there to provide best option for national security and not to play politics.

they have seen the days when top of the line mig 21 and others were churned out in bulks.

they have also seen ADA/ HAL doing shitty stuff so they know and value themselves.

Not entirely true. Imports of "top of the line" (which mirage wasnt by the way) might work in a short skirmish, and everyone gets to go home with shiny new medals.

But if we are forced into a grinding fight of attrition, nothing but our own industry can support us. It is good that we never ordered MRFA - In a way, it forced the Indian aerospace industry to mature. Yes, IAF may not be as well equipped today as it would have been had we had more planes (though it is their own stubbornness to stick to imports that led to it), I dont see it as a major threat as it is enough in a defensive context on the east and offensive on the west.

 

[johnj]

Not entirely true. Imports of "top of the line" (which mirage wasnt by the way) might work in a short skirmish, and everyone gets to go home with shiny new medals.

But if we are forced into a grinding fight of attrition, nothing but our own industry can support us. It is good that we never ordered MRFA - In a way, it forced the Indian aerospace industry to mature. Yes, IAF may not be as well equipped today as it would have been had we had more planes (though it is their own stubbornness to stick to imports that led to it), I dont see it as a major threat as it is enough in a defensive context on the east and offensive on the west.

Sorry to inform you that- Indian aerospace industry still decade away to mature & stuck with engine tech.
One major improvement is tata building c295.
Chances of a great war b/w two nuclear power eventually turn into nuclear war. Right now both indian/chinese generals only considering only short skirmish with less effect on economy.
MRFA increase profits of hal, which help to improve their R&D, more efficient european manufacturing tech.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

MRFA increase profits of hal, which help to improve their R&D, more efficient european manufacturing tech.

While Indian aerospace sector is still a work in progress, this part is not true at all. Screwdrivergiri does not lead to progress.

Progress comes from designing yourself, failing, correcting and learning.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Sorry to inform you that- Indian aerospace industry still decade away to mature & stuck with engine tech.
One major improvement is tata building c295.
Chances of a great war b/w two nuclear power eventually turn into nuclear war. Right now both indian/chinese generals only considering only short skirmish with less effect on economy.
MRFA increase profits of hal, which help to improve their R&D, more efficient european manufacturing tech.

License Assembly != technology development

 

[Flying Dagger]

While Indian aerospace sector is still a work in progress, this part is not true at all. Screwdrivergiri does not lead to progress.

Progress comes from designing yourself, failing, correcting and learning.

We learnt a lot through Sukhoi and mig 21 Jaguar manufacturing. China learnt and improvised through same process.

Mirage was top of the line...in light fighter category. still it's a good jet .

If we had 200+ Mirages armed with mica etc. on the border situation would have been completely different . We could have easily modified it with Indian aesa radar too and what not. That engine would have been ours.

It was our pick for Balakot strike for a reason.

 

[johnj]

While Indian aerospace sector is still a work in progress, this part is not true at all. Screwdrivergiri does not lead to progress.

Progress comes from designing yourself, failing, correcting and learning.

HAL also do R&D, eg. lch, luh, dhruve etc cats... for that they need money & mrfa[mmrca] provide a lots of profit. With out Screwdrivergiri there is no dhruv, lch, rudrha, luh etc - mki Screwdrivergiri made hal a cash cow.
Mmrca also ensure a local supply chain. HAL also able to integrate brahmos into mki-
Inefficiency & Screwdrivergiri two different things and everyone need to start from somewhere.

 

[NutCracker]

they have seen the days when top of the line mig 21 and others were churned out in bulks.

they have also seen ADA/ HAL doing shitty stuff so they know and value themselves.

Ah, Same HAL became shitty, that "churned out" 650 mig-21 and took upon the orders of 200 MKI before any MRCA brainlets even existed.

MRFA aka MMRCA wasn't for just 126 either initially it was 240 Mirages then 126+ more .option etc etc.

From where are we getting these numbers of 240 , first John also said 180 and you are giving 240.

We paid through our nose for Mirage upgrades to the French extortionists.
And officers were willing to go for 240 of them.

Guess we dodged a cannon ball.

How good it even was in A2A combat for its MRCA role. Didn't IAF chaps liked mig29 more than Mirage2000 for A2A.[/QUOTE]

 

[johnj]

License Assembly != technology development

Confused, HAL also do R&D with profits from License Assembly.
Without License Assembly there is no hal, ofb or dpsu- but can build nuke & delivery s/ms.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

We learnt a lot through Sukhoi and mig 21 Jaguar manufacturing. China learnt and improvised through same process.

Mirage was top of the line...in light fighter category. still it's a good jet .

If we had 200+ Mirages armed with mica etc. on the border situation would have been completely different . We could have easily modified it with Indian aesa radar too and what not. That engine would have been ours.

It was our pick for Balakot strike for a reason.

If we had 200 mirages, we wouldnt have pursued Tejas. AMCA would have been TD, with F35 being imported.

Tejas, whether forced down the throat of IAF or not, opened up the Indian fighter development up, going from producing tech demonstrators to frontline fighters.

 

[johnj]

If we had 200 mirages, we wouldnt have pursued Tejas. AMCA would have been TD, with F35 being imported.

Tejas, whether forced down the throat of IAF or not, opened up the Indian fighter development up, going from producing tech demonstrators to frontline fighters.

F35 not happining.
200m2k replace mig27 & mig23. or less chance for mki .Fate of tejas depends on goi, iaf will choose best thing in front of them. and the same production line can used for lca.
Mmrca is a different story.
IAF using/used around 200+ eu jets at once with 400 ussr ones, lca is to replace russian ones, not eu ones like jaguar, m2k but mig 21s. Now [future] mk2 replace a part jaguar fleet, mig29 etc.
Consider 42 sqn, not current 31 sqn. IAF need additional 200 jets urgently.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

F35 not happining.
200m2k replace mig27 & mig23. or less chance for mki .Fate of tejas depends on goi, iaf will choose best thing in front of them. and the same production line can used for lca.
Mmrca is a different story.
IAF using/used around 200+ eu jets at once with 400 ussr ones, lca is to replace russian ones, not eu ones like jaguar, m2k but mig 21s. Now [future] mk2 replace a part jaguar fleet, mig29 etc.
Consider 42 sqn, not current 31 sqn. IAF need additional 200 jets urgently.

F35 not happening because AMCA is credible program.
Had HAL not done MK-1, no one would have given any importance to MK-2 or AMCA. We would stay an import based force.

Yes, IAF doesnt have enough jets, but 31 squadrons is enough to prevent catastrophic failure. And long term solution is not imports, it is Indian jets.

 

[Aniruddha Mulay]

We learnt a lot through Sukhoi and mig 21 Jaguar manufacturing. China learnt and improvised through same process.

Mirage was top of the line...in light fighter category. still it's a good jet .

If we had 200+ Mirages armed with mica etc. on the border situation would have been completely different . We could have easily modified it with Indian aesa radar too and what not. That engine would have been ours.

It was our pick for Balakot strike for a reason.

And who is going to pay to upgrade those 200+ Mirages??
India paid $52 million per jet to upgrade the Mirage 2000 from H standard to the I standard(similar to 2000-5Mk2), this upgrade did not even feature an AESA radar let alone an engine upgrade.
Do you think that France would ever agree to integrate the Uttam AESA and a whole host of other Indian avionics onto the Mirage 2000 given their not so great history of transferring technology know-how and their over the top upgrade costs?

Given these monstrously expensive upgrade costs, I cannot even fathom what would be the upgrade costs of the Rafale 10-20 years down the line.

 

[johnj]

F35 not happening because AMCA is credible program.
Had HAL not done MK-1, no one would have given any importance to MK-2 or AMCA. We would stay an import based force.

Yes, IAF doesnt have enough jets, but 31 squadrons is enough to prevent catastrophic failure. And long term solution is not imports, it is Indian jets.

Consider reading initial pages of mk2 thread. ADA selected 99 ge 414 in 2008/9 and they are very serious about mk2. In the case of mk1- iaf order book - 16 ioc[ok], 8 trainer[ok], 16 foc[ not ok], I wanted 100plus foc,Once goi cancelled mmrca, and no future order in sight - hal comes with mk1a, [jaguar upgrade], IAF placed additional order of 83 ac. and more delay in mk2 development- more mk1 versions.

IAF squadrons strength is their problem, and if they really concerned about squadrons strength they considered ordering at least 50 foc versions in first place.
Tejas mk1 cant eliminate the need of mmrca, but mk2 can.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Consider reading initial pages of mk2 thread. ADA selected 99 ge 414 in 2008/9 and they are very serious about mk2. In the case of mk1- iaf order book - 16 ioc[ok], 8 trainer[ok], 16 foc[ not ok], I wanted 100plus foc,Once goi cancelled mmrca, and no future order in sight - hal comes with mk1a, [jaguar upgrade], IAF placed additional order of 83 ac. and more delay in mk2 development- more mk1 versions.

IAF squadrons strength is their problem, and if they really concerned about squadrons strength they considered ordering at least 50 foc versions in first place.
Tejas mk1 cant eliminate the need of mmrca, but mk2 can.

I agree, except about the opinion that AMCA would have still been fine with massive import orders.

 

[johnj]

And who is going to pay to upgrade those 200+ Mirages??
India paid $52 million per jet to upgrade the Mirage 2000 from H standard to the I standard(similar to 2000-5Mk2), this upgrade did not even feature an AESA radar let alone an engine upgrade.
Do you think that France would ever agree to integrate the Uttam AESA and a whole host of other Indian avionics onto the Mirage 2000 given their not so great history of transferring technology know-how and their over the top upgrade costs?

Given these monstrously expensive upgrade costs, I cannot even fathom what would be the upgrade costs of the Rafale 10-20 years down the line.

Funny thing is GoI paid $52 million per jet to upgrade the Mirage 2000.[one+one crashed]
What is upgrade cost for mki ?
Want != Buy.
What iaf want and what goi buys are two different things.
USAF wanted around 600 f22, but they got around 200,
Same goes to IN, IA.
Israel also offered upgrade package for m2k, but iaf choosed french.

 

[johnj]

I agree, except about the opinion that AMCA would have still been fine with massive import orders.

AMCA ? massive import orders. ? what r u saying ?
anyways- as long as amca depend on usa engine, chances of import orders very unlikely- they offer f35-

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

AMCA ? massive import orders. ? what r u saying ?
anyways- as long as amca depend on usa engine, chances of import orders very unlikely- they offer f35-

Im saying that if we had imported 200 MRFA, we would not have gotten to the place where AMCA is set to be our fifth gen platform.

We would have had to import F-35.