ADA Tejas Mark-II/Medium Weight Fighter

[Aniruddha Mulay]

Funny thing is GoI paid $52 million per jet to upgrade the Mirage 2000.[one+one crashed]
What is upgrade cost for mki ?
Want != Buy.
What iaf want and what goi buys are two different things.
USAF wanted around 600 f22, but they got around 200,
Same goes to IN, IA.
Israel also offered upgrade package for m2k, but iaf choosed french.

Upgrade cost of 150 Su30 MKI is pegged at $4 billion, roughly $27 million per jet, about half the amount spent on upgrading those Mirages with a far superior sensor and avionics suite.

 

[NutCracker]

Upgrade cost of 150 Su30 MKI is pegged at $4 billion, roughly $27 million per jet, about half the amount spent on upgrading those Mirages with a far superior sensor and avionics suite.

Not even half..
50M$ of 2011 will be 65M $ with adjusted for inflation.

 

[no smoking]

We learnt a lot through Sukhoi and mig 21 Jaguar manufacturing. China learnt and improvised through same process.

No, completely different process.
Unlike India, Chinese has to produce their Mig-21 without Russian assistance, which means Chinese scientists had to figure out every manufacturing detail, from the basic screw to manufacturing equipment, from aerodynamic design to electronic system. It took them 20 years to sort out everything.
And then, they repeat the same procedure with Su-27.

 

[Flying Dagger]

No, completely different process.
Unlike India, Chinese has to produce their Mig-21 without Russian assistance, which means Chinese scientists had to figure out every manufacturing detail, from the basic screw to manufacturing equipment, from aerodynamic design to electronic system. It took them 20 years to sort out everything.
And then, they repeat the same procedure with Su-27.

Lol you basically stole their stuff which is something we could have done too but ethics are something which coronese... don't understand.

 

[Flying Dagger]

And who is going to pay to upgrade those 200+ Mirages??
India paid $52 million per jet to upgrade the Mirage 2000 from H standard to the I standard(similar to 2000-5Mk2), this upgrade did not even feature an AESA radar let alone an engine upgrade.
Do you think that France would ever agree to integrate the Uttam AESA and a whole host of other Indian avionics onto the Mirage 2000 given their not so great history of transferring technology know-how and their over the top upgrade costs?

Given these monstrously expensive upgrade costs, I cannot even fathom what would be the upgrade costs of the Rafale 10-20 years down the line.

For those 200+ we had option of our own inhouse production and upgraded one from the get go.

Israel offered to modify Mirage too.

French even offered to have kaveri engine on Rafale if ready. We would have our own engine manufacturing line with M53 and could have been used for Tejas if needed.


They wouldn't be able to do jackshit if we decided to integrate Uttam aesa otherwise. Israel did that with F-16S.

52 million ? Also it did include weapons like mica etc.

 

[Blademaster]

Lol you basically stole their stuff which is something we could have done too but ethics are something which coronese... don't understand.

Ethics shouldn't get in the way of strategic needs.

 

[Flying Dagger]

If we had 200 mirages, we wouldnt have pursued Tejas. AMCA would have been TD, with F35 being imported.

Tejas, whether forced down the throat of IAF or not, opened up the Indian fighter development up, going from producing tech demonstrators to frontline fighters.

We would have pursued it anyway... Instead of Mk1a though you would have seen mk2+ with learning from Mirage production and design coming into it.

But yes instead of 274 Sukhoi you might be seeing 140-200 max.

Mig 21 would have been retired early by 2012-17 schedule.

And if and if... Many things but F 35 never had any chance due to American ownership.

Point is my post was just to correct about what was the original number IAF asked for. And those 12+ Squadrons of Mirage on the border would have certainly changed the picture for them.

Ethics shouldn't get in the way of strategic needs.

Thoda bahut humne bhi Kiya hain. They just did it better.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

We would have pursued it anyway... Instead of Mk1a though you would have seen mk2+ with learning from Mirage production and design coming into it.

But yes instead of 274 Sukhoi you might be seeing 140-200 max.

Mig 21 would have been retired early by 2012-17 schedule.

And if and if... Many things but F 35 never had any chance due to American ownership.

Point is my post was just to correct about what was the original number IAF asked for. And those 12+ Squadrons of Mirage on the border would have certainly changed the picture for them.





Thoda bahut humne bhi Kiya hain. They just did it better.

It would have changed the picture for now, and ruined it for the future.

MK-2 only became serious with the canard redesign, else that would have been a TD only. And that came much later.

 

[no smoking]

Lol you basically stole their stuff which is something we could have done too but ethics are something which coronese... don't understand.

Steal the whole production line from Soviet? You are funny!
You don't need to steal because Russians already gave you everything you need to produce.

 

[silverghost]

Steal the whole production line from Soviet? You are funny!
You don't need to steal because Russians already gave you everything you need to produce.

Nothing was given, we paid for everything. Do you see the difference?

 

[samsaptaka]

MRFA is an urgent requirement, & additional 54 rafale is ok to fill the gap until mk2 is ready.

What is so special about this MRFA gold plated requirement that additional rafales cannot fulfil. Rafale is a top class fighter, so why another MRFA, instead of additional follow on rafale orders ?

 

[pankaj nema]

What is so special about this MRFA gold plated requirement that additional rafales cannot fulfil. Rafale is a top class fighter, so why another MRFA, instead of additional follow on rafale orders ?

We want Rafale 4.2 or 4.3 , so that we don't have to pay for Mid Life Upgrades

 

[MirageBlue]

What is so special about this MRFA gold plated requirement that additional rafales cannot fulfil. Rafale is a top class fighter, so why another MRFA, instead of additional follow on rafale orders ?

Because of the deal size and the fear within MoD, GoI and IAF that if it is not a competition where others can participate, Dassault will ask for an arm and a leg for setting up an assembly line and ToT.

Dassault knows perfectly well that they're in pole position with the Rafale F4. It meets and exceeds requirements that the IAF has for the MRFA, especially after the India Specific Enhancements addressed all the requirements that were IAF related that the Rafale didn't have like TACAN, VOR, some additional radar modes, etc.

But given how much time has already been wasted on MRCA and MRFA, it only makes sense for the IAF to go and beg MoD to cancel MRFA and just do a Govt to Govt deal for 72-74 additional Rafales to be lumped together with the IN's MRCBF Rafale Ms and get as assembly line in India for it. Hard negotiations will be required, but that will be easier than this MRFA mess.

 

[skunk works]

Lol you basically stole their stuff which is something we could have done too but ethics are something which coronese... don't understand.

Ethics aren't going to provide close air support in a 2-front war. Chinese were just better and farsighted.
And ethics for who? The Russians who stole every new fighter technology from the west?

 

[Flying Dagger]

Ethics aren't going to provide close air support in a 2-front war. Chinese were just better and farsighted.
And ethics for who? The Russians who stole every new fighter technology from the west?

From West ?

They basically stole everything from Nazi Germans.

 

[binayak95]

From West ?

They basically stole everything from Nazi Germans.

Both sides had extremely strong bases for aerodynamics, and then stole everything they could from everyone they could.
Nene engines, titanium processing, every nazi scientist and prototype available.

Indians did too - Kurt Tank was not after all, from neutral switzerland

 

[johnj]

What is so special about this MRFA gold plated requirement that additional rafales cannot fulfil. Rafale is a top class fighter, so why another MRFA, instead of additional follow on rafale orders ?

MRFA = Multi Role Fighter Aircraft. FYI Rafale also comes under MRFA, also include LCA, Su30mki etc are also MRFA. Its is gold plated but not platinum plated.
I think you mean IAF 114 MRFA requirement - which also include rafale. IAF need a jet which is dependable from first day to last day of war doing all the jobs, with out any delay, with high availability, sortie rate, less & easy maintenance etc etc.
Follow on Rafale- too low in numbers.
Tejas mk2 also comes under MRFA & meets 144 MRFA requirements.

 

[Flying Dagger]

What is so special about this MRFA gold plated requirement that additional rafales cannot fulfil. Rafale is a top class fighter, so why another MRFA, instead of additional follow on rafale orders ?

Cost... Rafales are on expensive side... And GOI isn't willing to open purse.

Unfortunately all the options IAF seeks are expensive.

Other than this they will have F-16s and Gripen .
It's just a pressure tactics by IAF to make GOI buy more.

Most probably they will renegotiate with Dassault and buy more Rafale.

 

[IndianHawk]

Assembly line for rafale is a stupid idea. It only increase the cost of jets to more than double . It is smarter to buy 36 more rafale directly from France and invest similar amount into AMCA infrastructure to infuse latest technologies.

Few years later buy final batch of rafale with 36 more of latest kind and go full indigenous form there on with mwf , tedbf and AMCA.

36 more rafale will cost 6 Billion USD as bases and india specific enhancement are already there. 36 more later will cost 7 billion USD later. So total 13 billion USD over 10 years.

But assembling rafale in India will take the deal for 72 upwards 20 billion USD.

 

[Mangal]

Assembly line for rafale is a stupid idea. It only increase the cost of jets to more than double . It is smarter to buy 36 more rafale directly from France and invest similar amount into AMCA infrastructure to infuse latest technologies.

Few years later buy final batch of rafale with 36 more of latest kind and go full indigenous form there on with mwf , tedbf and AMCA.

36 more rafale will cost 6 Billion USD as bases and india specific enhancement are already there. 36 more later will cost 7 billion USD later. So total 13 billion USD over 10 years.

But assembling rafale in India will take the deal for 72 upwards 20 billion USD.

If India goes for Rafael what do you think when the deliveries will start given that Dassault already has its handful with orders from other countries?