Would India have been better off had the Axis won World War II?

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

Missionaries were very active in Nanking from 1832 and the main target of Japanese were Chinese Christians and i think there is even one movie made on this starring jackie Chan ..
Nanking wasn't a Christian city. The Japanese killed a minimum of 300,000 Chinese, an overwhelming majority of whom were not Christians, but those who practised Taoism.
 

Deccani

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Re: Indische Legion

Nanking wasn't a Christian city. The Japanese killed a minimum of 300,000 Chinese, an overwhelming majority of whom were not Christians, but those who practised Taoism.
Missionaries were active in Nanking from 1843 and there was quite a number of Christians in Nanking by 1937 and the Japanese massacre was about 6 weeks

The Opium War and Foreign Encroachment | Asia for Educators | Columbia University



Along with India, China was another early mission of the Foreign Christian Missionary Society. In 1886 it sponsored Canadian Dr. William Macklin (1860-1947) as a missionary to Nanking. Edwin P. Hearnden (d. 1896) and Albert F.H. Saw (1865-1898) from Britain soon joined the mission along with two couples from the United States. They began medical work, schools, and other mission stations assisted by converts like Shi Kwei-biao (d.1925) and additional missionaries like Rosa Tonkin from Australian Churches of Christ. These missions persevered under Chinese opposition to "foreign" influences, through the Boxer Uprising of 1898-1901, and during Sun Yat-sen's republican revolution of 1911-1912. By the 1920's the missionaries began to relinquish control to Chinese Christian leaders like Li Hou-fu (d.1939) the co-secretary of the mission.

Chinese leadership was essential in preserving the churches through the trying political situation of the next few decades. Japanese occupation of China began in 1937 with the brutal occupation of Nanking where missionaries Miner Searle Bates (1897-1978) and Minnie Vautrin (1886-1941) protected thousands of innocent lives. During the occupation, Shao Ching-San (d. 1958), known as Luther Shao, who completed a Ph.D. at Yale in 1934, returned to China and became secretary of the mission. Due to Communist rule beginning in 1949 the last of the United Christian Missionary Society workers left in 1951
World Convention » China
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

Missionaries were active in Nanking from 1843 and there was quite a number of Christians in Nanking by 1937 and the Japanese massacre was about 6 weeks

The Opium War and Foreign Encroachment | Asia for Educators | Columbia University



Along with India, China was another early mission of the Foreign Christian Missionary Society. In 1886 it sponsored Canadian Dr. William Macklin (1860-1947) as a missionary to Nanking. Edwin P. Hearnden (d. 1896) and Albert F.H. Saw (1865-1898) from Britain soon joined the mission along with two couples from the United States. They began medical work, schools, and other mission stations assisted by converts like Shi Kwei-biao (d.1925) and additional missionaries like Rosa Tonkin from Australian Churches of Christ. These missions persevered under Chinese opposition to "foreign" influences, through the Boxer Uprising of 1898-1901, and during Sun Yat-sen's republican revolution of 1911-1912. By the 1920's the missionaries began to relinquish control to Chinese Christian leaders like Li Hou-fu (d.1939) the co-secretary of the mission.

Chinese leadership was essential in preserving the churches through the trying political situation of the next few decades. Japanese occupation of China began in 1937 with the brutal occupation of Nanking where missionaries Miner Searle Bates (1897-1978) and Minnie Vautrin (1886-1941) protected thousands of innocent lives. During the occupation, Shao Ching-San (d. 1958), known as Luther Shao, who completed a Ph.D. at Yale in 1934, returned to China and became secretary of the mission. Due to Communist rule beginning in 1949 the last of the United Christian Missionary Society workers left in 1951
World Convention » China
The presence of a few missionaries in Nanking does not make the massacre an action by Buddhist Japan again Christian China, does it?

The overwhelming majority of Nanking's civilians were NOT Christians in 1937, and they still aren't today. The Japanese Regime during WW2 showed no bias towards any religion/ethnicity except their own. They were a truly racist bunch who pretty-much disliked any/every non-Japanese person.
 

pmaitra

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Re: Indische Legion

Sure, which may explain part of their mis-rule in India. All Western powers were racist during WW2.Heck, wasn't segregation prevalent in the US till 1960s?But the point is, what did they DO about it? The Germans had time enough to draw up a plan and they outshone everyone else in their commitment and methodic execution of their plan.

And I'd say India will do well to follow the norm here and instead be exceptional in other areas. Lauding Nazi collaborators is simply not in good taste.
Who are you calling a Nazi collaborator? Netaji? I certainly laud him, and that is in excellent "taste," because he actually declared war on a murderous genocidal racist regime, i.e. the British Empire. If one has a problem with that, then so be it.
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

Who are you calling a Nazi collaborator? Netaji? I certainly laud him, and that is in excellent "taste," because he actually declared war on a murderous genocidal racist regime, i.e. the British Empire. If one has a problem with that, then so be it.
Yup...I don't expect anyone to agree with me, conditioned as we are since childhood that they somehow were great actions. But history suggests otherwise. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Indian Govts of the 50s and 60s have deliberately withheld info about his last days/death, as it's bound to make them uneasy when such questions are raised.

Sure, Netaji's intent were never in doubt, just his actions are.
 

Deccani

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Re: Indische Legion

The presence of a few missionaries in Nanking does not make the massacre an action by Buddhist Japan again Christian China, does it?
It was already around 90 years since the missionaries arrived in Nanking proper from 1843 till 1937 and in between there were many revolts against the European powers by the Chinese .



The overwhelming majority of Nanking's civilians were NOT Christians in 1937, and they still aren't today. The Japanese Regime during WW2 showed no bias towards any religion/ethnicity except their own. They were a truly racist bunch who pretty-much disliked any/every non-Japanese person.
That war was mainly to control the New lands and Japanese army was waging wars on all the directions and the presence of European armies were everywhere in that period .

But the wrong doing by any power during that time was not correct and it was colonial era in which 80% of countries were under occupation .
 

pmaitra

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Re: Indische Legion

Yup...I don't expect anyone to agree with me, conditioned as we are since childhood that they somehow were great actions. But history suggests otherwise. I wouldn't even be surprised if the Indian Govts of the 50s and 60s have deliberately withheld info about his last days/death, as it's bound to make them uneasy when such questions are raised.

Sure, Netaji's intent were never in doubt, just his actions are.
History is written by the winners. Lots of genocides have happened. Gassing the Jews wasn't any greater a crime than nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Both were equally wrong. Going by your choice of words, one had to choose to "collaborate" with one of the two genocidal alliances (Axis/Allies).

His actions are not in doubt in my mind. He did what was best for India. My heart doesn't bleed for any other nation over India.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Re: Indische Legion

Forget books, what about the manifestos/agendas of these regimes laid out in the open by themselves? If I am an Indian, I wouldn't want to join a party which openly preached racial supremacy, would I?

And the defeated Nations themselves have acknowledged the doings of their regimes during WW II. Surely, we can't be protesting their own confession, should we?
I failed to see the benevolence of the British?after winning 2. World wars for mother
England Indians were rewarded by being divided upon independence. British were
Responsible for more indian deaths than anyone else in Indian history thru famines
And wars. The agenda of these regimes seems to be the same as British colonial
Rule territorial expansion by crushing those who oppose with military force or religious
Division or by hook or by crook.
 

Deccani

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Thread title is incorrect because the whole Indian Sub continent was under occupation .

Axis and allies both were fighting to expand their influence in which Indians were under complete occupation in which one side was ruling and another side was trying to replace that rule .

What happened in First world war with Ottoman Empire and same thing happened with occupied India which resulted in pieces of both and division of the population on the basis of religion, ethnicity, language and ever lasting divisions among the masses .
 
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Deccani

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Re: Indische Legion

When you look back at history you are looking in books written by the winners , at that time maybe the Germans and jaoaneses were not viewed as monsters by all? Even being world war 2 monsters they are third and fourth largest economies today.


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here i think a bit different . Both Germans and Japanese calculations were wrong when its was about the Indians and Chinese because during that era , communication with the masses was a problem and British were having a good network and started to engage with princely kings way before the second world war started and British were using all ways to keep Indian and Chinese masses in their favor by using loud speakers and this kept both Indians and Chinese under check from revolting fully and the same loud speaker propaganda was later used in the occupation of Palestine but in a different way because the European powers were already aware how to use that propaganda against masses and this propaganda was even used by red army .
 

LETHALFORCE

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Re: Indische Legion

here i think a bit different . Both Germans and Japanese calculations were wrong when its was about the Indians and Chinese because during that era , communication with the masses was a problem and British were having a good network and started to engage with princely kings way before the second world war started and British were using all ways to keep Indian and Chinese masses in their favor by using loud speakers and this kept both Indians and Chinese under check from revolting fully and the same loud speaker propaganda was later used in the occupation of Palestine but in a different way because the European powers were already aware how to use that propaganda against masses and this propaganda was even used by red army .
Food supply was a method of controlling the masses a scorched earth policy of sorts.
If you were good you eat bad you starve.
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

History is written by the winners. Lots of genocides have happened. Gassing the Jews wasn't any greater a crime than nuking Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Both were equally wrong. Going by your choice of words, one had to choose to "collaborate" with one of the two genocidal alliances (Axis/Allies).

His actions are not in doubt in my mind. He did what was best for India. My heart doesn't bleed for any other nation over India.
Last I remembered, it was the Brits ruling us and the Americans Nuke-bombing the Japs. How are the two related other than the fact that they were wartime allies? I never said the Axis was a bad coalition, but specifically the Germans and the Japanese. A distinctions needs to be made between wartime alliances and individual Governmental actions. The Brits aren't known for any large-scale wartime atrocities and let's leave them at that.

How is the Japanese/Germans gaining a foothold in India beneficial to us in any way? It's like saying I made use of Leukemia to get rid of AIDS! :)
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

It was already around 90 years since the missionaries arrived in Nanking proper from 1843 till 1937 and in between there were many revolts against the European powers by the Chinese .





That war was mainly to control the New lands and Japanese army was waging wars on all the directions and the presence of European armies were everywhere in that period .

But the wrong doing by any power during that time was not correct and it was colonial era in which 80% of countries were under occupation .
Missionaries were not unique to Nanjing alone. A lot many Asian cities were hosting Missionaries. Let's not muddle the issue by raising trivial players in the second Sino-Japanese war. Fact remains that the Japanese were brutal racists and did not hesitate to indulge in mass atrocities during WW2, not just in Nanking, but other places in the Pacific too.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Who else were the major powers during that era that supported indian independence?
 

pmaitra

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Re: Indische Legion

Last I remembered, it was the Brits ruling us and the Americans Nuke-bombing the Japs. How are the two related other than the fact that they were wartime allies? I never said the Axis was a bad coalition, but specifically the Germans and the Japanese. A distinctions needs to be made between wartime alliances and individual Governmental actions. The Brits aren't known for any large-scale wartime atrocities and let's leave them at that.

How is the Japanese/Germans gaining a foothold in India beneficial to us in any way? It's like saying I made use of Leukemia to get rid of AIDS! :)
"It was the Brits ruling us." - Thanks. I did not know that. :rolleyes:

"The Americans Nuke-bombing the Japs." - Thanks. I did not know that either. :rolleyes:

"How are the two related other than the fact that they were wartime allies?" - Read my comment once again and you will get the answer. Oh wait, the answer is there in the question itself.

"The Brits aren't known for any large-scale wartime atrocities and let's leave them at that." - No need to qualify atrocities as "wartime" or "peacetime." They are known for atrocities. You Sir, have a soft corner for the racist genocidal Brits who caused death to millions of Indians, and you pontificate about "good taste" about allying with the Axis powers. How deluded could one be?

"How is the Japanese/Germans gaining a foothold in India beneficial to us in any way?" - Comprehension problems? Who is advocating Germans/Japanese getting foothold in India?
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

I failed to see the benevolence of the British?after winning 2. World wars for mother
England Indians were rewarded by being divided upon independence. British were
Responsible for more indian deaths than anyone else in Indian history thru famines
And wars. The agenda of these regimes seems to be the same as British colonial
Rule territorial expansion by crushing those who oppose with military force or religious
Division or by hook or by crook.
Are you so naive so as to credit the British alone with the Partition of India?? If yes, I'm sure I can't reason any more with you. If No, then I shall take this opportunity to remind you that of all the Colonial Powers, the British have been the most well behaved. They haven't tried to forcefully establish their religion like the Portuguese or Spanish and they haven't tried to suppress the independence movement through wars like the French in Indo-China or Algeria.

I'm only saying that Netaji was about to hand over INDIAN territories to regimes that were much more brutal than the British. Regimes which killed a lot of people in the FEW years they were in power in foreign lands. British rule isn't the issue here, but his actions are. The British will always come out smelling Roses if it will be compared to Nazi germany or wartime Japan.
 

pmaitra

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Re: Indische Legion

Are you so naive so as to credit the British alone with the Partition of India?? If yes, I'm sure I can't reason any more with you. If No, then I shall take this opportunity to remind you that of all the Colonial Powers, the British have been the most well behaved. They haven't tried to forcefully establish their religion like the Portuguese or Spanish and they haven't tried to suppress the independence movement through wars like the French in Indo-China or Algeria.

I'm only saying that Netaji was about to hand over INDIAN territories to regimes that were much more brutal than the British. Regimes which killed a lot of people in the FEW years they were in power in foreign lands. British rule isn't the issue here, but his actions are. The British will always come out smelling Roses if it will be compared to Nazi germany or wartime Japan.
You sound like Zaid Hamid. Keep entertaining everyone of us.
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

"It was the Brits ruling us." - Thanks. I did not know that. :rolleyes:

"The Americans Nuke-bombing the Japs." - Thanks. I did not know that either. :rolleyes:

"How are the two related other than the fact that they were wartime allies?" - Read my comment once again and you will get the answer. Oh wait, the answer is there in the question itself.

"The Brits aren't known for any large-scale wartime atrocities and let's leave them at that." - No need to qualify atrocities as "wartime" or "peacetime." They are known for atrocities. You Sir, have a soft corner for the racist genocidal Brits who caused death to millions of Indians, and you pontificate about "good taste" about allying with the Axis powers. How deluded could one be?

"How is the Japanese/Germans gaining a foothold in India beneficial to us in any way?" - Comprehension problems? Who is advocating Germans/Japanese getting foothold in India?
What else were you thinking would happen if the Azad Hind Fauj, allying itself with Japs or Germans(the Japs having a very real chance) won over British defences? I cannot believe you would be so naive as to think they'd treat Indians with great respect and work towards Indian Independence.
 

Phantom

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Re: Indische Legion

You sound like Zaid Hamid. Keep entertaining everyone of us.
I'm sorry if that's somehow entertainment to you. To me, it's a real possibility in History when my Nation would've slunk into deeper trouble, but thankfully didn't.
 

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