Would India have been better off had the Axis won World War II?

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

It was world war in which all nations took sides because of the colonial period



If may be the british and allies would have failed in stopping the Germans and Japanese advances then for sure there would have been massarces of Indians and because of this only Subhash Chandra Bose and his Azad Hind Fauj to stop these massarces of Indian Nation join the Axis powers .

That's a very convoluted logic my friend.

The Azad Hind Fauj fought against those who were protecting our motherland from the Japanese. I don't consider it a bright move. How would the Azad Hind Fauj prevent a Japanese take-over of India in case their invasion plans were successful?

In any case, the Japanese occupied the Andamans briefly during the War. Those who're settled there from colonial times have nothing but horror stories to tell about the Japanese occupation.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Indische Legion

A man of Netaji's stature should have seen the folly of allying oneself with brutal foreign regimes just to kick out another foreign power. And a violent insurrection was not needed especially when Gandhiji's tactics were bearing fruit. The British even hinted at independence after the War if the Indians supported the British war effort.

The British were going to renege on their false promises, and renege they did, once the war was over, until Churchill was shown the door and Roosevelt laid a condition for Indian independence or no aid.

And isn't a regime that engineered a famine still better than one which mercilessly gassed it's own people or the one which raped an entire city?

A regime that kills someone else is better than a regime that kills my own kind.

To me, allying with a bigger evil to get rid of a lesser evil doesn't make good sense. The Azad Hind Fauj fought against our own troops in the Imphal and Kohima campaigns. How is that considered defending our motherland?

That is your opinion, so there is nothing I can say.

 

[Deccani]

Re: Indische Legion

A man of Netaji's stature should have seen the folly of allying oneself with brutal foreign regimes just to kick out another foreign power. And a violent insurrection was not needed especially when Gandhiji's tactics were bearing fruit. The British even hinted at independence after the War if the Indians supported the British war effort.

And isn't a regime that engineered a famine still better than one which mercilessly gassed it's own people or the one which raped an entire city?

To me, allying with a bigger evil to get rid of a lesser evil doesn't make good sense. The Azad Hind Fauj fought against our own troops in the Imphal and Kohima campaigns. How is that considered defending our motherland?

During that time , Media was not so much advance nor independent and whatever the news use to enter India from the Europe and South East Asia fronts were just what the British and allies want , only after the end of the war , people all over the world started to know about the deaths and atrocities .

Famine was done by the British which led to the deaths of around 3 million Bengali civilians and it was like a collective punishment for assisting the Azad hind Fauj and like all the nations during the second world war , Indians were even dead in millions . Invaders have always killed Indians in millions but the problem is this that Indians are stop to talk about the injustices done to their nation .

 

[LETHALFORCE]

Re: Indische Legion

When you look back at history you are looking in books written by the winners , at that time maybe the Germans and jaoaneses were not viewed as monsters by all? Even being world war 2 monsters they are third and fourth largest economies today.


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[Deccani]

Re: Indische Legion

That's a very convoluted logic my friend.

The Azad Hind Fauj fought against those who were protecting our motherland from the Japanese. I don't consider it a bright move. How would the Azad Hind Fauj prevent a Japanese take-over of India in case their invasion plans were successful?

In any case, the Japanese occupied the Andamans briefly during the War. Those who're settled there from colonial times have nothing but horror stories to tell about the Japanese occupation.

Second world war was about the new world order and both axis and allies were trying to get as many as nations from Africa, Asia, Middle east and South east Asia and in fact it was nothing but replacement of one colonial power with other colonial power . British, Soviets, Germans and Japanese use to see India just as land of free manpower and money during second world war . The reason Germans were trying to get Indians with them because of their experience of First world war .

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

The British were going to renege on their false promises, and renege they did, once the war was over, until Churchill was shown the door and Roosevelt laid a condition for Indian independence or no aid.


A regime that kills someone else is better than a regime that kills my own kind.


That is your opinion, so there is nothing I can say.

True. But Roosevelt's actions were in no part influenced by Netaji's actions. They were in reaction to Gandhiji's massive & peaceful movements.
Clement Attlee too had Independence to the Subcontinent in his Election manifesto.

Well, the Germans killed their own kind(fellow Germans), the Japs killed & raped fellow Asians(Chinese), the Brits killed Bengalis(unrelated). Anyways, A regime that is directly & explicitly responsible for violent atrocities & deaths is far more dangerous, IMO.

Yes, my opinions don't matter much. Nevertheless, I voiced them, lest silence be mistaken for agreement.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Indische Legion

True. But Roosevelt's actions were in no part influenced by Netaji's actions. They were in reaction to Gandhiji's massive & peaceful movements.
Clement Attlee too had Independence to the Subcontinent in his Election manifesto.

Well, the Germans killed their own kind(fellow Germans), the Japs killed & raped fellow Asians(Chinese), the Brits killed Bengalis(unrelated). Anyways, A regime that is directly & explicitly responsible for violent atrocities & deaths is far more dangerous, IMO.

Yes, my opinions don't matter much. Nevertheless, I voiced them, lest silence be mistaken for agreement.

The Brits killed Indians. The Germans did not kill Indians. That should settle the choice between the Brits and the Germans.

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

When you look back at history you are looking in books written by the winners , at that time maybe the Germans and jaoaneses were not viewed as monsters by all? Even being world war 2 monsters they are third and fourth largest economies today.

Forget books, what about the manifestos/agendas of these regimes laid out in the open by themselves? If I am an Indian, I wouldn't want to join a party which openly preached racial supremacy, would I?

And the defeated Nations themselves have acknowledged the doings of their regimes during WW II. Surely, we can't be protesting their own confession, should we?

 

[Deccani]

Re: Indische Legion

Forget books, what about the manifestos/agendas of these regimes laid out in the open by themselves? If I am an Indian, I wouldn't want to join a party which openly preached racial supremacy, would I?

But that time indians use to see it as wars between European powers

And the defeated Nations themselves have acknowledged the doings of their regimes during WW II. Surely, we can't be protesting their own confession, should we?

But those things came out later after the end of the war .

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

The Brits killed Indians. The Germans did not kill Indians. That should settle the choice between the Brits and the Germans.

The Germans did not rule Indians in the first place! On the other hand, the Brits ruled Indians for close to 150 years before the start of WW II. Besides, that's exactly my point. How many would Germany have killed had they implemented their policy of Racial Supremacy in India?

The Germans killed nearly 7 million from the countries they briefly ruled during WW II.

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

But that time indians use to see it as wars between European powers




But those things came out later after the end of the war .

On the contrary, the most famous atrocity of the Japanese, the Rape of Nanking, was already known in British India. This occured in 1937, and was widely reported by the start of WW II. The Nazi Party's manifesto too was well-known at the start of the war itself.

 

[civfanatic]

Re: Indische Legion

Hitler was an admirer of the British Raj and considered it as a good example of a small, "racially superior" population (British Anglo-Saxons) dominating a huge, "racially inferior" population (Indians). In fact, Hitler always wanted to ally with Britain due to perceived racial/cultural similarities, and also due to strategic considerations (Germany's strength lied in its Army, while Britain's lied it in its Navy, so they could complement each other). He was forced to attack Britain only when it became clear that such an alliance was not forthcoming.

I doubt that India would have been any better under Axis occupation than under British rule. Millions of Indians would have probably died either way.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Indische Legion

The Germans did not rule Indians in the first place! On the other hand, the Brits ruled Indians for close to 150 years before the start of WW II. Besides, that's exactly my point. How many would Germany have killed had they implemented their policy of Racial Supremacy in India?

The Germans killed nearly 7 million from the countries they briefly ruled during WW II.

There were 70,000 Indian PoWs in Germany who were treated well, even better than their European officers.

What would have happened or could have happened had the Germans ruled India is moot. What has happened is important.

Personally, I believe the Germans were a better choice than the Brits.

When it comes to hypotheses, we can have an infinite number of arguments.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Indische Legion

The Germans did not rule Indians in the first place! On the other hand, the Brits ruled Indians for close to 150 years before the start of WW II. Besides, that's exactly my point. How many would Germany have killed had they implemented their policy of Racial Supremacy in India?

The Germans killed nearly 7 million from the countries they briefly ruled during WW II.

There were 70,000 Indian PoWs in Germany who were treated well, even better than their European officers.

What would have happened or could have happened had the Germans ruled India is moot. What has happened is important.

Personally, I believe the Germans were a better choice than the Brits.

When it comes to hypotheses, we can have an infinite number of arguments.

 

[Deccani]

Re: Indische Legion

On the contrary, the most famous atrocity of the Japanese, the Rape of Nanking, was already known in British India. This occured in 1937, and was widely reported by the start of WW II. The Nazi Party's manifesto too was well-known at the start of the war itself.

The wars in South Asia east was mainly due to the new lands . Australia, new Zealand and many other islands . Chinese were used by the European colonists against the Japanese and if there would be no Chinese wars with Japanese then the European colonists would have never defeated Japanese . Chinese were already under British occupation which led to the treaty of Nanking in 1842 and then Treaty of Tientsin in 1858 with Second French Empire, United Kingdom, Russian Empire, and the United States. Spanish colonists were already there by 16th century occupying Philippines and were replaced by Americans in 1899.

And this become the reason for the Nanking wars between Japan and Chinese . And Japanese were fighting as Buddhist power and Chinese were already started to become Christians . and The Western powers were seen as Christian powers and it was like a religious war .

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

There were 70,000 Indian PoWs in Germany who were treated well, even better than their European officers.

What would have happened or could have happened had the Germans ruled India is moot. What has happened is important.

Personally, I believe the Germans were a better choice than the Brits.

When it comes to hypotheses, we can have an infinite number of arguments.

Sure, why would they want to mistreat soldiers who were ready to fight for them? They had similarly sycophantic legions from all their captured lands. But this does not take away their affinity for the Nordic super-race and the lengths to which they went to enforce the same.

And what has happened is that apart from India, no one else has lauded men who sided with the Nazis or the Military Dictatorship in Japan during WW2, not even the Germans or Japanese themselves.

 

[pmaitra]

Re: Indische Legion

Sure, why would they want to mistreat soldiers who were ready to fight for them? They had similarly sycophantic legions from all their captured lands. But this does not take away their affinity for the Nordic super-race and the lengths to which they went to enforce the same.

The idea was racial superiority wasn't unique amongst Germans. It was there amongst the Brits as well.

And what has happened is that apart from India, no one else has lauded men who sided with the Nazis or the Military Dictatorship in Japan during WW2, not even the Germans or Japanese themselves.

Yes, and that is because India is, and should be, exceptional.

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

The wars in South Asia east was mainly due to the new lands . Australia, new Zealand and many other islands . Chinese were used by the European colonists against the Japanese and if there would be no Chinese wars with Japanese then the European colonists would have never defeated Japanese . Chinese were already under British occupation which led to the treaty of Nanking in 1842 and then Treaty of Tientsin in 1858 with Second French Empire, United Kingdom, Russian Empire, and the United States. Spanish colonists were already there by 16th century occupying Philippines and were replaced by Americans in 1899.

And this become the reason for the Nanking wars between Japan and Chinese . And Japanese were fighting as Buddhist power and Chinese were already started to become Christians . and The Western powers were seen as Christian powers and it was like a religious war .

Not factual on most counts. The Sino-Japanese War was fought between the Republic of China headed by the Koumintang Party & the Japanese Military Dictatorship. Ironically, China received help from Nazi germany and Soviet Union during the ealy stages of the war and from US in the later stages.

What's more, the Empire of Japan, which was ruled de-facto by a Military Junta, strongly discouraged religion. Their war with China had no religious connotations.

 

[Deccani]

Re: Indische Legion

Not factual on most counts. The Sino-Japanese War was fought between the Republic of China headed by the Koumintang Party & the Japanese Military Dictatorship. Ironically, China received help from Nazi germany and Soviet Union during the ealy stages of the war and from US in the later stages.

What's more, the Empire of Japan, which was ruled de-facto by a Military Junta, strongly discouraged religion. Their war with China had no religious connotations.

Missionaries were very active in Nanking from 1832 and the main target of Japanese were Chinese Christians and i think there is even one movie made on this starring jackie Chan ..

 

[Phantom]

Re: Indische Legion

The idea was racial superiority wasn't unique amongst Germans. It was there amongst the Brits as well.


Yes, and that is because India is, and should be, exceptional.

Sure, which may explain part of their mis-rule in India. All Western powers were racist during WW2.Heck, wasn't segregation prevalent in the US till 1960s?But the point is, what did they DO about it? The Germans had time enough to draw up a plan and they outshone everyone else in their commitment and methodic execution of their plan.

And I'd say India will do well to follow the norm here and instead be exceptional in other areas. Lauding Nazi collaborators is simply not in good taste.