Turkish defense industry news updates

[jai jaganath]

Even for russia, Su-30-SM costs 35-37 million dollars per plane (https://militarywatchmagazine.com/a...ce-as-much-as-russia-s-new-su-30sm-here-s-why). And you are telling me a drone will not come down to 10 million dollars per plane?


Every one is intelligent till the real war starts and bullets fly. Then one realizes how stupid one was. Till 26th Feb 2019 we were also very confident and then we found out that heck even blast pens to house Su-30MKIs were not there in near LoC. WTF!

Let the fighting begin and we will also find out just how stupid our ground forces and their decision makers are.


And yet Russians have run out of any modern tanks and are digging out 1940s and 50s tanks. TB2 has fulfilled its role well.

Which 40s and 50s tank have they brought to war
They have adequate tanks for armour push and even if they feel shortage or loss is higher they can build it in war footing manner as they have an active mic
Why do they need 50s or 40s tank

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Their slowdown is not due to drones pls do visit the conflict thread in the forum

I am not saying that RECENT russian slowdown is due to drones. I am saying the other way round. RECENT lack of drone success is due to the fact that Russians have stopped advancing and have deployed their AD cover. Let them try to push a tank column to Kyiv from Belarus and again you will see the similar story.

TB2 has fulfilled its role as an anti armour platform.

It didn't kill their armour thrust in the manner western sources say yeah at first they were used due to absence of proper AD
When true Russian layered AD arrived they were falling left and right now they are mostly used for their ideal role that is reconnaissance and intel gathering as they are ineffective in ucav roles

Its one thing to defend a static target with a multilayered AD cover. Its totally different thing to cover a massive convoy using QRSAMs. That is a much harder problem because you do not really have multi layered AD then. Its just QR SAMs.

Against a complex multilayered AD, things like HIMARS will work better.

Coming to us we will invade any piece we are a defending force so comparing us with Russians is not right as they are invading Ukraine the resources should be very high which their officers weren't able to achieve it

We do not even have an adequate AD cover for our Army bases in Kashmir. Remember, those Pakistani were able to guide their TV ammunition all the way till the front lawn of our army HQ there. That too in broad daylight and with forewarning.

Drones have affected aerial warfare but not changed it

Quite the opposite. Drone have changed the GROUND warfare by making tanks highly vulnerable. Our cold start doctrine is no longer valid. If we attempt it, it is very likely to be defeated by a ukraine like defence using same TB2 tactics. Pakistan already has quite a few TB2s.

If Kilizelma becomes a reality, our airforce will suffer the same fate.

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Which 40s and 50s tank have they brought to war

T-54s.

Russia is dusting off antique tanks from the 1940s, monitor group says, as its losses mount in Ukraine

T-54s, first manufactured in 1947, were seen being transported from deep storage in Russia's far east, the Conflict Intelligence Team said.

uk.sports.yahoo.com

From Hibernation to Humiliation? Russia Brings T-54 Tanks Out of Retirement

The CIT team has obtained photographs of a train transporting military vehicles from Russia’s Far East. We identified the vehicles...

notes.citeam.org

 

[jai jaganath]

I am not saying that RECENT russian slowdown is due to drones. I am saying the other way round. RECENT lack of drone success is due to the fact that Russians have stopped advancing and have deployed their AD cover. Let them try to push a tank column to Kyiv from Belarus and again you will see the similar story.

TB2 has fulfilled its role as an anti armour platform.


Its one thing to defend a static target with a multilayered AD cover. Its totally different thing to cover a massive convoy using QRSAMs. That is a much harder problem because you do not really have multi layered AD then. Its just QR SAMs.

Against a complex multilayered AD, things like HIMARS will work better.


We do not even have an adequate AD cover for our Army bases in Kashmir. Remember, those Pakistani were able to guide their TV ammunition all the way till the front lawn of our army HQ there. That too in broad daylight and with forewarning.


Quite the opposite. Drone have changed the GROUND warfare by making tanks highly vulnerable. Our cold start doctrine is no longer valid. If we attempt it, it is very likely to be defeated by a ukraine like defence using same TB2 tactics. Pakistan already has quite a few TB2s.

If Kilizelma becomes a reality, our airforce will suffer the same fate.

They can't bcoz this time Russians won't repeat the mistake of going without any credible AD as they move either will move with well fortified AD cover like both short and medium range
Yes it fulfilled its role until AD arrived after that there were more no of crashes in very few months
Yes even moving with qrsam is not safe u have to move with tunguska and osa in our case
I have never said we have very good AD but our investment post 2019 has been significant be it advanced variants of Akash or mrsam or qrsam that is to be procured, upgrade of older AA guns
And specifically which u r saying about 2019 is completely different from Russian invasion
No it has affected ground warfare but not changed
Tanks are still useful and effective
Tb-2 and akinci will not be credible in our case bcoz we will always be in defensive role
It's neither a silver bullet nor highly sophisticated weapon but just time supports few things in few incidences
Coming to our air force performance I better not speak as they are nothing other than inefficient system which fails in procurement and sometimes I feel in maintainance and tactics too
I feel disgusted looking at our crash rates
Further discuss would be better in Russia Ukraine thread as there are more awared members regarding the matter who don't visit this thread
What we are doing is just derailing
And I am not underestimating Turkish work they are just awesome efficient and practical bunch of people who know how to deliver and develope

 

[jai jaganath]

T-54s.

Russia is dusting off antique tanks from the 1940s, monitor group says, as its losses mount in Ukraine

T-54s, first manufactured in 1947, were seen being transported from deep storage in Russia's far east, the Conflict Intelligence Team said.

uk.sports.yahoo.com

From Hibernation to Humiliation? Russia Brings T-54 Tanks Out of Retirement

The CIT team has obtained photographs of a train transporting military vehicles from Russia’s Far East. We identified the vehicles...

notes.citeam.org

Ahhh
I personally haven't seen t-54 or t-62 in war ground
I might be wrong but it seems that u have been bit into western propaganda but I am not denying Russian ones too
But when they can produce t-90 and t-72 why would they need it on ground its just logic less

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Ahhh
I personally haven't seen t-54 or t-62 in war ground
I might be wrong but it seems that u have been bit into western propaganda but I am not denying Russian ones too
But when they can produce t-90 and t-72 why would they need it on ground its just logic less

And how will you personally see anything in war ground? You are not going to go there, right?
Lastly, its not just being capable to produce it is also being capable to produce in numbers. Russian military is lacking numbers to the point that they are getting cheap suicide drone from Iran of all places.
Lastly, it may just not be lack of tanks but lack of ammunitions too.

 

[jai jaganath]

And how will you personally see anything in war ground? You are not going to go there, right?
Lastly, its not just being capable to produce it is also being capable to produce in numbers. Russian military is lacking numbers to the point that they are getting cheap suicide drone from Iran of all places.
Lastly, it may just not be lack of tanks but lack of ammunitions too.

Their loitering munitions weren't developed during the war so they used or imported Iranian system but later they developed and operationalized lancet
And ofcourse on ground means videos or photos ig even u are speaking on the basis of that too
I personally haven't seen in video or pics with t-54 or t-62

 

[Gyyan]

Nothing will get to the scale of US military industrial complex and hence similar cost reduction for other military jets is improbable. US is producing 180 F-35 a year. There is a reason Rafale is expensive even with export orders.


Even at best it comes down to 25 million + ammunition, it still won't be equivalent of stealth fighter. There is still human decision making involved and those sat comms links are vulnerable. Satellites are vulnerable as well, so if you don't have a huge ass satellite fleet (like US or China), and you go against an enemy with anti sat capabilities your comms infra will be destroyed.

Human pilots practice for these kinds of scenarios where sat comms are taken out. US has such exercises with its closest allies (UK, Canada and Australia) every other year.

DOD “Red Flag” exercise ushers in GPS jamming season across West

War games in the sky, at sea, on ground block GPS to add a dose of reality.

arstechnica.com

There is a reason US airforce decided to keep humans in the loop with manned unmanned teaming. The forward deployed manned fighter jet can communicate with the drones without sat comms. So, until the drones become fully autonomous to even engage targets, this manned-unmanned teaming was developed as compromise.

So, I will wait till there is some actual data.

Like TB2 is great for fighting against irregular forces and low tech forces, but as we saw in the Ukraine war, even though they are somewhat useful (esp. for surveillance), they are not a game changer and ultimately the war came down to artillery duels.

Less than 150 but you are right economy of scales helps reducing the price but using F-35 a benchmark at this stage is foolish.
F-35 is a whole different game with more than 900 in service and 150+ aircrafts to be produced next year.

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Here : https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...-without-even-upgrading-them/?sh=670faa0c34d2

BTW, Russia is not alone. Ukraine has also fielded UPGRADED version of these ancient tanks in their war. But what is really surprising that Russia will have to resort to this because Russia was supposedly one of the world's biggest military power.

 

[Gyyan]

It was hardly just the TB2 that screwed over russia. And Armenia got hit as they have no airforce and their airdefences were wrecked by harpys before the Tb2s went in.

Ill wait for the news article that claims that the cost of the Kızılelma is 10 million .. Even the 30 million quoted in the above article is just hopeful .. So lets stick with that. And right there you have half the cost of a light fighter ...hardly game changing.
(https://www.baykartech.com/en/uav/bayraktar-tb2/).
This link just shows automatic waypoint navigation hardly anything related to fighting.. Not even automatic takeoff and landing like the rustom .

Bro that 30 million gives you a freakin LO aircraft with decent A2A capabilities.
It's a great platform....not to forget we use mig-21s on the border with Pakis

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Less than 150 but you are right economy of scales helps reducing the price but using F-35 a benchmark at this stage is foolish.
F-35 is a whole different game with more than 900 in service and 150+ aircrafts to be produced next year.

Given that Russia can field a HEAVY platform like Su-30-SM for 30-35 million dollars, I do not see any reason why a drone like Kizilelma can not be manufactured in numbers for 10 million dollars. None of their components are noval. None are too expensive. Significant part has a overlap with their existing platforms like TB2.

 

[Gyyan]

Given that Russia can field a HEAVY platform like Su-30-SM for 30-35 million dollars, I do not see any reason why a drone like Kizilelma can not be manufactured in numbers for 10 million dollars. None of their components are noval. None are too expensive. Significant part has a overlap with their existing platforms like TB2.

Look at the no of flankers(Russian)flying in the world.
Also look up the price russians quoted for su75.

 

[jai jaganath]

Here : https://www.forbes.com/sites/davida...-without-even-upgrading-them/?sh=670faa0c34d2

View attachment 203744

BTW, Russia is not alone. Ukraine has also fielded UPGRADED version of these ancient tanks in their war. But what is really surprising that Russia will have to resort to this because Russia was supposedly one of the world's biggest military power.

Again just a pic on ground but nowhere I have seen them being used be it telegram or twitter nor getting destroyed
I might be wrong but I have said the same thing these pic of being transported or just standing can't derive they are being used in war

 

[jai jaganath]

Look at the no of flankers(Russian)flying in the world.
Also look up the price russians quoted for su75.

Su-75 price is bogus bro
I can't believe that they are lying as they do always

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Look at the no of flankers(Russian)flying in the world.
Also look up the price russians quoted for su75.

Given how popular Turkey is in drones market, I do not see a reason why they will not pick up the market that should have gone to Russian drones. Russia is not going to field drones anytime soon.

Once they start selling this drone in numbers, it is likely many countries will buy them. If not for anything else then for a poor-man's stealth fighter. Not a 5th gen but surely a LO fighter. If they sell it in numbers you will have scale of economies.

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Again just a pic on ground but nowhere I have seen them being used be it telegram or twitter nor getting destroyed
I might be wrong but I have said the same thing these pic of being transported or just standing can't derive they are being used in war

Here is from twitter, the same picture came from twitter originally, the article even acknowledges that :
Remember, there has not been any denial from Russian side for T55 / T54 news.

 

[rodeo]

can you not discuss this subject on another thread? the thread is being derailed.

but on a related note, kizilelma will have Murad AESA with 1152 GaN modules(20W/30W per T/R module) and an integrated EOTS. The drone won't be very cheap. For export it will certainly not be below $30 mil(more like 40mil) a piece. TAF will buy them cheaper but not below $10 mil. however, think of the flying prototype as a technology demonstrator. to fulfill its entire mission envelope, it will be equipped with more powerful engines and be a tad bigger.

 

[jai jaganath]

can you not discuss this subject on another thread? the thread is being derailed.

but on a related note, kizilelma will have Murad AESA with 1152 GaN modules(20W/30W per T/R module) and an integrated EOTS. The drone won't be very cheap. For export it will certainly not be below $30 mil(more like 40mil) a piece. TAF will buy them cheaper but not below $10 mil. however, think of the flying prototype as a technology demonstrator. to fulfill its entire mission envelope, it will be equipped with more powerful engines and be a tad bigger.

Yeah I have mentioned derailing
Maybe he is a new member so

 

[Nazaria e Bakistan]

Yeah I have mentioned derailing
Maybe he is a new member so

Remember my dear, you keep on replying and you were supposedly an old member. LOL!

 

[jai jaganath]

Here is from twitter, the same picture came from twitter originally, the article even acknowledges that :
Remember, there has not been any denial from Russian side for T55 / T54 news.

Again my point is same bro
Better u can ask and learn more in the conflict thread where people are following it from day 1
I have left it for past 1 year but just came to share views regarding tanks anyway it will be good in that thread