TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Bhartiya Sainik]

IWB are not the be all and end all. If needed they can design external IWB like the silent hornet

The problem in that option is the empty pod is too precious to jettison after firing all weapons. And if not jettisoned then it will affect agility.

 

[abingdonboy]

The problem in that option is the empty pod is too precious to jettison after firing all weapons. And if not jettisoned then it will affect agility.

Where there’s a problem there’s a solution.

AMCA/F35 with will IWB carriage are only door kicker/day 1 options, the rest of the time they’ll operate with external weapons/pods/fuel. So if needed the podded weapons pods can be used for TEDBF for major campaigns

 

[abingdonboy]

Golden words, my friend.

I would rather Navy relenting to joining IAF in developing a common 5.5 generation fighter. We don't have the R&D budget for 3 fighter jet programs simultaneously, especially when we are expecting retiring of support aircraft in the future.

56 C-295s are not going to be enough to replace 108 An-32s, and HAL is already batting for an indigenous design transport aircraft in this category.

the trouble is the 5.5 gen jet is looking at 2035 to be ready for the IAF, so 2040 for the naval variant? They are in a serious shortfall because of the rapidly depleting strength of the 29K fleet and fundamental issues that are handicapping that fleet that they failed to account for. So instead of 90 29Ks for 2 carriers serving until the 2040s they have ~40 29Ks that need to be retired ASAP and that are facing serious operational shortcomings.

that’s why they went for MRCBF but when it became clear that neither the Rafale-M or F-18 could operate satisfactorily from the 2 IN STOBAR carriers and the cost of such a project if they went for extensive modifications and the jets ($9-10 billion minimum) they thought a clean sheet designed to fit into the footprint of the 29K in terms of deck lifts and-restraining gear system. This way they don’t have to undertake major structural redesigns of the Vikky or Vikrant that would put both out of service for years just at a time when they need to start ramping up carrier experience.

N-AMCA was a much riskier proposition that would’ve left the navy without a solution for at least 2 more decades

One thing I would like to understand is if ADA are designing TEDBF to be able to operate off of CATOBAR carriers, it’s clear that in the next 2 decades a third carrier will come and it’ll be CATOBAR, if TEDBF can’t operate from that then they are back to square one- a carrier without fighters.

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Where there’s a problem there’s a solution.

AMCA/F35 with will IWB carriage are only door kicker/day 1 options, the rest of the time they’ll operate with external weapons/pods/fuel. So if needed the podded weapons pods can be used for TEDBF for major campaigns

That day-1 door-kicker was for USA & allies in the days of Gulf-War with an inferior adversary. And in following days also they ran into dog-fights.
Our scenario is different where China is ahead & may supply things to Pak too. SAMs have improved a lot & more mobile. Now it would be a fresh battle everyday. We should never make overconfident assumptions about adversaries.
Losing a fuel tank is different from losing a stealth treated much costly weapons pod. But our DoD guys are not onto such thing.

Why can't we use stronger engines in TEDBF like AL-31 in Su-30MKI & later AL-41?

 

[abingdonboy]

That day-1 door-kicker was for USA & allies in the days of Gulf-War with an inferior adversary. And in following days also they ran into dog-fights.
Our scenario is different where China is ahead & may supply things to Pak too. SAMs have improved a lot & more mobile. Now it would be a fresh battle everyday. We should never make overconfident assumptions about adversaries.
Losing a fuel tank is different from losing a stealth treated much costly weapons pod. But our DoD guys are not onto such thing.

Why can't we use stronger engines in TEDBF like AL-31 in Su-30MKI & later AL-41?

We know why Russian engines are being avoided and it’s for good reason. The 29Ks are already severely limited because of their engines, among other issues

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

We know why Russian engines are being avoided and it’s for good reason. The 29Ks are already severely limited because of their engines, among other issues

Not the MiG-29K with RD-33MK, but the AL-31F in Su-30MKI & later AL-41F.

 

[abingdonboy]

Not the MiG-29K with RD-33MK, but the AL-31F in Su-30MKI & later AL-41F.

Same issues

low MTBF, less reliable, more prone to FOD etc etc

There’s a reason india has wanted Western engine tech not Russian

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Same issues

low MTBF, less reliable, more prone to FOD etc etc

There’s a reason india has wanted Western engine tech not Russian

Yes, as i did the calculations, GE 414 just suffice for TEDBF with IWB, almost equal to F-35 T/W ratio. To improve this, another western engine could be
Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 afterburning turbofan (for F-15SE & F-16 Block 52 version), 17,800 lbf (79 kN) thrust dry, 29,560 lbf (131.5 kN) with afterburner.
Or General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan, Maximum thrust: 32,500 lbf (145 kN) in full afterburner

.

 

[Tshering22]

Yes, as i did the calculations, GE 414 just suffice for TEDBF with IWB, almost equal to F-35 T/W ratio. To improve this, another western engine could be Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-229 afterburning turbofan (for F-15SE & F-16 Block 52 version), 17,800 lbf (79 kN) thrust dry, 29,560 lbf (131.5 kN) with afterburner.
Or General Electric F110-GE-132 turbofan, Maximum thrust: 32,500 lbf (145 kN) in full afterburner.

But there is no engine decided for TEDBF yet; heck, it is not even confirmed whether the Navy will go for TEDBF at this point as the project still requires an official sanction. I was tempted to vouch for getting the Rafale M but at that rate, we will never be able to become self-reliant. If anything, chances are the the AMCA and TEDBF engines will be the same JV engines planned. GE F-414s will be Tejas Mk2. That's about it.

One option that we can consider is the proposed Anglo-Japanese next-generation jet engines that is being planned for Mitsubishi F-3 and BAE Tempest. UK has already opened its offer for us to join the Tempest project itself, but we could convert that invitation for the engine. OR we would further make it sweet for Macron and go for the full-fledged Safran-GTRE JV engine much like the Shakti-Tubomeca engine on Dhruvs, LCHs and LUHs. The recent partnership agreement between Safran and GTRE announced is for IMRH project, not for the jet engine and something tells me that as usual, we will not be putting all eggs in one basket.

TEDBF is the compromise that we have to suck it up and take it in if we have to ever be able to stand on our feet in the near future. China is leagues ahead because they had a strong government with a single focus; to defeat the West and take charge as a global power. And they are much closer to it while our scummy politicians were hurling chairs, bottles and mikes at each other in the parliament throughout the 90s.

 

[abingdonboy]

But there is no engine decided for TEDBF yet; heck, it is not even confirmed whether the Navy will go for TEDBF at this point as the project still requires an official sanction. I was tempted to vouch for getting the Rafale M but at that rate, we will never be able to become self-reliant. If anything, chances are the the AMCA and TEDBF engines will be the same JV engines planned. GE F-414s will be Tejas Mk2. That's about it.

One option that we can consider is the proposed Anglo-Japanese next-generation jet engines that is being planned for Mitsubishi F-3 and BAE Tempest. UK has already opened its offer for us to join the Tempest project itself, but we could convert that invitation for the engine. OR we would further make it sweet for Macron and go for the full-fledged Safran-GTRE JV engine much like the Shakti-Tubomeca engine on Dhruvs, LCHs and LUHs. The recent partnership agreement between Safran and GTRE announced is for IMRH project, not for the jet engine and something tells me that as usual, we will not be putting all eggs in one basket.

TEDBF is the compromise that we have to suck it up and take it in if we have to ever be able to stand on our feet in the near future. China is leagues ahead because they had a strong government with a single focus; to defeat the West and take charge as a global power. And they are much closer to it while our scummy politicians were hurling chairs, bottles and mikes at each other in the parliament throughout the 90s.

G414 is almost a certainty for the TEDBF IMO. This will give it a TWR far better than Rafale-M with comparable performance figures.

the 110KN engine is coming for AMCA MK.2, it’ll also have an option for the LCA apparently. But that’s a bit too far down the road for the TEDBF given the timelines involved unless they want to do the AMCA MK.1/2 approach

 

[Tshering22]

G414 is almost a certainty for the TEDBF IMO. This will give it a TWR far better than Rafale-M with comparable performance figures.

the 110KN engine is coming for AMCA MK.2, it’ll also have an option for the LCA apparently. But that’s a bit too far down the road for the TEDBF given the timelines involved unless they want to do the AMCA MK.1/2 approach

Let's see. GE will not be willing to develop a new engine jointly even though their press release says that they are ready to collaborate. Since AMCA is a 5.5 generation jet, the GOI would prefer that the entire engine tech IP is not in foreign hands.

 

[Vamsi]

Why so much discussion about IWB?

Answer me one simple question.
In an Anti-Ship mission , where should TEDBF carry Brahmos-NG or futuristic Air Launched Hypersonic Anti-Ship Missile ? An IWB cannot carry them internally ,so it must be carried externally, then what's the point of having stealth bird?

Don't say that AMCA & F-35 have beast modes. Both the scenarios for Air Force & Navy are different .

AF scenario: AMCA WILL NOT fly in a beast mode untill the enemy air defenses are
completely destroyed or atleast untill the enemy air defenses are weak. 1st AMCA wil fly in stealth mode to destroy enemy air defenses in a SEAD/DEAD mission , and this will be followed by a deep strike mission in beast mode.

Navy Scenario: Here the case is completely different. The Air Defenses of the Ship or a CBG are within the Ships. So, u cannot do separate SEAD/DEAD mission and followed by a strike mission like in Air Force scenario. So, if u want to destroy enemy air defence, then u have to sink the ship itself which means TEDBF should carry an Anti-Ship missile like Brahmos-NG , which are impossible to carry internally.

 

[Tshering22]

Why so much discussion about IWB?

Answer me one simple question.
In an Anti-Ship mission , where should TEDBF carry Brahmos-NG or futuristic Air Launched Hypersonic Anti-Ship Missile ? An IWB cannot carry them internally ,so it must be carried externally, then what's the point of having stealth bird?

Don't say that AMCA & F-35 have beast modes. Both the scenarios for Air Force & Navy are different .

AF scenario: AMCA WILL NOT fly in a beast mode untill the enemy air defenses are
completely destroyed or atleast untill the enemy air defenses are weak. 1st AMCA wil fly in stealth mode to destroy enemy air defenses in a SEAD/DEAD mission , and this will be followed by a deep strike mission in beast mode.

Navy Scenario: Here the case is completely different. The Air Defenses of the Ship or a CBG are within the Ships. So, u cannot do separate SEAD/DEAD mission and followed by a strike mission like in Air Force scenario. So, if u want to destroy enemy air defence, then u have to sink the ship itself which means TEDBF should carry an Anti-Ship missile like Brahmos-NG , which are impossible to carry internally.

Depends.

Who exactly are you assuming will attack us in such an elaborate naval confrontation?

PLAN?

What's the assumption you are making wrt their supply bases? Myanmar? Sri Lanka? That would make these countries a fair target for IAF to take out.

 

[MonaLazy]

Look at what happened to LCH and LUH.

They are ready for orders when i last checked- only orders weren't forthcoming for very very long- until very recently for LCH. No orders still for LUH which did see some flying by the user on the LAC when the dragon was breathing down our neck.

Look at the cost of imported AH-64 and the LxH- you'll have your answer. Secondly, of the IA/IAF we can ask- where are the orders? HAL has been right on the money with development, testing and certification of these helicopters. Many frames in partially built state lying in factory. The user has to take that step now and start trusting our R&D and place orders earlier in the dev chain. They are deeply embedded in its testing aren't they? Then why doubt themselves with no orders. Will any Boeing or LM give our pilots this level of access? When we asked for testing PAKFA what happened?

 

[THESIS THORON]

the 110KN engine is coming for AMCA MK.2, it’ll also have an option for the LCA apparently. But that’s a bit too far down the road for the TEDBF given the timelines involved unless they want to do the AMCA MK.1/2 approach

it is supposed to come out in 2032 imo tedbf can have jv engine. because, the timeline for amca mk2 production just 3 yrs after that. (2035)

 

[IndianHawk]

Kindly don't pass personal & obnoxious comments.
If discussing is bad then let's delete this website & all other such sites & channels. No public debates, no journalism, let's leave the forces & R&D guys in peace to resolve everything.


When? After 3-4 decades?

Your own comments are in bad faith and filled with stupid nonsense.

What's of the point of this 3 decade comment??

So you even know what is indian naval doctrine?? What does navy wants it's jets to do??

Yet you simply jump in and write all these post in absolute vaccum . And expect others to engage you seriously in a debate!!!

Here you go in my ignore list . Good riddance. Don't bother replying I won't be seeing it anyway.

 

[MonaLazy]

Your own comments are in bad faith and filled with stupid nonsense.

Here you go in my ignore list . Good riddance. Don't bother replying I won't be seeing it anyway.

My conclusions exactly & have been at peace ever since.

 

[IndianHawk]

My conclusions exactly & have been at peace ever since.

From time to time forum gets one or two such posters who don't read anything but just keep posting their own point of view. It is better to ignore than bother and move on.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Kindly don't pass personal & obnoxious comments.
If discussing is bad then let's delete this website & all other such sites & channels. No public debates, no journalism, let's leave the forces & R&D guys in peace to resolve everything.


When? After 3-4 decades?

You are the most pessimistic person I have ever met. Chill out, if we can build tedbf in 10-15 yes, why will modifying the airframe take 30 years?

Stop panicking needlessly.

 

[MonaLazy]

But there is no engine decided for TEDBF yet;

Why do you say that? It will be the F414. Two of them.

TEDBF Will enter production in 2031: Navy Chief – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

I mean if the engine is not decided upon now- add another decade to the program.