TEDBF or ORCA Updates

[Super Flanker]

So I guess the Production of TEDBF is starting in 2031 itself. In my Opinion ,the max period for testing of the Aircraft will be around 4-5 years at maximum, not more than this, let's see how HAL will be able to do what they are supposed to do with regards to this project. I have so much hopes for TEDBF. I am hoping for the best.

TEDBF Will enter production in 2031: Navy Chief – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

 

[FalconSlayers]

TEDBF Will enter production in 2031: Navy Chief – Indian Defence Research Wing

idrw.org

IDRW Detected
News Rejected

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Yea checked that list, half are fanboy channels made for entertainment and propaganda, not for information.

I also said that. This is era of social media. Every forum claims to be best. I don't see ".GOV.IN" extension on this website or the ones i listed. I was hoping that this website also would have YT channel.
U can't expect common people to go to DoD sites directly, some may.
1st working people watch news feed, then social media feed & then some serious fans come to forums like this.

AF is lagging because of lack of funds. Indias budget needs to be increased. AF is supposed to deal with china+pak, with less than 1/3 of the resources given to chines af alone.

I said it long back repeatedly in other product forums too. Time won't wait, adversaries won't wait. Politicians ate funding in scams in past. But we should not repeat mistake, either of corruption or of tech lag & getting stuck with old stuff again by recreating old stuff today.

Im an engineer in an IIT, part of the aero team. Have family members in DRDO aero projects (Specifically:UAVs) Does that count as enough or do I need to be project manager at HAL to please you?

Good to know that, pleasure to chat with u. But we r not here to please eachother obviously. If i was not offendd then i wouldn't raise questions on others' qualification either.
But this doesn't mean that other members can't disagree with u & put their opinion.
I was not intelligent enough to go through IIT/NIT but i managed to be a regular Sr. IT engineer + team manager . I worked with Wipro Tech., Accenture, IBM so far in Pune & B'luru. I started watching documentries since mid-1990s & then went to intenet parlors to search more on websites. I try to use pictures, videos, infographic in best way possible to make others comprehend rather than just plain text. I hope that is a good resume enough to comprehend certain technical stuff & qualify to join unofficial fan forums & discuss. Or shall i enroll for a part time PG course in aeronautics 1st?

 

[THESIS THORON]

AAP LOG ROONA BAND KIJIYE


....MUDI

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Please dont make random posts just to pick a fight and somehow gloat over your own percieved superiority.

ROFL. let me know when this website gets a .GOV.IN extension & members need to work in aero field like u or atleast have family & relatives in DoD.
A discussion fan forum is always a random post site.
These days IIT passouts suffer more of superiority complex. I'm just an average guy.

At this point Im going to have to go the same way as Monalazy and IndianHawk

Please do so. peace of mind is important. U & them have the right to disagree in a discussion, so do I. None of us can escape disagreements in any corner of world.

 

[IndianHawk]

Salivating at the prospect of this GaN AESAR moving into the Mk1s bigger nose in MLU. We could have 1400-1500 TRMs? How many in the Su-30??

OBCBET: Bandar Judi Bola Terpercaya, Judi Online, Agen Sbobet Casino Resmi

OBCBET merupakan situs bandar judi bola terpercaya yang akun taruhan judi bola di agen judi online, casino online resmi dengan permainan slot online dan casino online terlengkap.

infotonline.com

View attachment 128249

Mk1 will be converted to mk1a with Uttam aesa but TRM will remain same because of power and cooling requirement of aesa .

 

[MonaLazy]

Mk1 will be converted to mk1a with Uttam aesa but TRM will remain same because of power and cooling requirement of aesa .

I'm more excited by the GaAs to GaN shift for Mk1 (Uttam Mk3?) - much lower power requirements, many times better range.

 

[IndianHawk]

I'm more excited by the GaAs to GaN shift for Mk1 (Uttam Mk3?) - much lower power requirements, many times better range.

That may only happen at MLU many years later. For now they will remain with GaAs components.

Mk2 will get GaN components from the get go and so will tedbf while AMCA may get something far more advanced than even GaN.

 

[Dessert Storm]

AMCA may get something far more advanced than even GaN

That would be AMKA Mk2? If possible, could you share a bit more on 'far more advanced......'?

 

[IndianHawk]

That would be AMKA Mk2? If possible, could you share a bit more on 'far more advanced......'?

Well we have GaN components already in production and going in various ground based radar systems already. ( Airborne radar like uttam take some more time for GaN components which will be there in mk2 and tedbf by 2025-26).

AMCA mk1 will come only by 2030 as a production ready version.

So from 2021 -2030 during these 9-10 years we will definitely have some next gen capability. Either much more improvement over existing GaN trm or much improvement in power and cooling requirements or much more improvement in radar algorithms with more powerful processors for AMCA to reduce digital clutter even further .

Or technologies like photonics and anti stealth radar based on them .

So many things can get better during this long interval as we are constantly working to improve them and our budget is only increasing.

 

[THESIS THORON]

I had a question, that why dont we make the tail section of the jets of radar transparent materials (meta materials), you can also make wing of radar transparent materials as it does not have fuel inside it ??

 

[Javelin_Sam]

The navy is being practical and grounded in reality. The TEDBF do not have space for a main internal weapon bay without sacrificing space for fuel or internal avionics. A side internal weapon bay that can carry ccms or short range missiles is also of no use. A standard A2A loadout will have 2 BVRs and 2 CCMs. Even if side internal weapons bay can carry 1 CCM each, the larger BVRs like Astra2, upcoming SFDR and Rudrams have to be carried in external pylons-stealth is already compromised. Then whats the use of CCMs in internal weapons bay? Its better that that space is useful for something else.

Else for a TEDBF with main, Internal bays and still considerable fuel for a Naval fighter with all the weight constraints for a heavier landing gear and underbodyframe, the GEF414 are grossly inadequate. AL31 are another size class engine for Su-27 family sized jets.

Only the main weapon bay is useful for a fighter. It is large enough to carry multiple BVRAAMs and other A2G and AShM missiles. Side weapons bay is useful if there is already a main weapon bay as it can complement latter by moving CCMs out of it. This space constraint is also the reason why IAF opted out of side weapon bays for AMCA. 2 BVR and 2 CCMs can be comfortabily carried in the main weapon bay.
The navy also knows the reality that a true 5th Gen Naval-AMCA with 75KN engine won't fly anytime before 2040.

 

[Covfefe]

@MonaLazy @SavageKing456 and others, what are the detection capabilities of a warship based radars to detect and track a stealth FA? If they could see a non-stealth FA at 250km(say, for example only) and stealth FA at 200km(again just assumption), stealth will hardly be a value addition in anti-shipping roles? The A2A dominance still remains intact though but they don't usually do air wars of naval jets. Also, with the networking capabilities, the ship could guide the jets?
PS- the reason I ask this is because Navy must have found something that negates the benefits of a stealth jet on carriers for all the pain it comes with. Also keeping in mind the enhanced capacities of radars in years to come, geometric stealth and material coating won't improve at the same pace.

 

[SavageKing456]

@MonaLazy @SavageKing456 and others, what are the detection capabilities of a warship based radars to detect and track a stealth FA? If they could see a non-stealth FA at 250km(say, for example only) and stealth FA at 200km(again just assumption), stealth will hardly be a value addition in anti-shipping roles? The A2A dominance still remains intact though but they don't usually do air wars of naval jets. Also, with the networking capabilities, the ship could guide the jets?
PS- the reason I ask this is because Navy must have found something that negates the benefits of a stealth jet on carriers for all the pain it comes with. Also keeping in mind the enhanced capacities of radars in years to come, geometric stealth and material coating won't improve at the same pace.

"Geometric stealth and material coating won't improve at the same pace"
Not true at all
In fact they're even new methods of enhancing stealth coming up.
Low observability is never fixed,the technology will continue to expand and grow.
regarding stealth FA even normal radars(ground based) can detect from a decent range but what about tracking?
It depends on RCS and how intelligent the machine is.
Let's take an example of f35
It can create false targets to spoof AD even if they detect and track it,they would be incapable to shoot it down.
+f35 can do sutter attacks as well to nullify any attack Air defense can do.
It depends on many factors and not only low observability.
Here I'm not even taking into account of standoff striking capabilities of stealth aircrafts

 

[Bhartiya Sainik]

Why so much discussion about IWB?

Answer me one simple question.
In an Anti-Ship mission , where should TEDBF carry Brahmos-NG or futuristic Air Launched Hypersonic Anti-Ship Missile ? An IWB cannot carry them internally ,so it must be carried externally, then what's the point of having stealth bird?

Don't say that AMCA & F-35 have beast modes. Both the scenarios for Air Force & Navy are different .

AF scenario: AMCA WILL NOT fly in a beast mode untill the enemy air defenses are
completely destroyed or atleast untill the enemy air defenses are weak. 1st AMCA wil fly in stealth mode to destroy enemy air defenses in a SEAD/DEAD mission , and this will be followed by a deep strike mission in beast mode.

Navy Scenario: Here the case is completely different. The Air Defenses of the Ship or a CBG are within the Ships. So, u cannot do separate SEAD/DEAD mission and followed by a strike mission like in Air Force scenario. So, if u want to destroy enemy air defence, then u have to sink the ship itself which means TEDBF should carry an Anti-Ship missile like Brahmos-NG , which are impossible to carry internally.

So does that mean that Navy jet in every country should not evolve beyond 4th gen EVER in future while the AF jet will keep on evolving? Who decides how much to wait? Politicians or engineers? Time doesn't wait, evolution simply happens. Either ride with time or get blown to history.
With time/generation/technology, doctrine has to change for every country. New gen of weapons are also required.
When we are talking about 4th gen jet, do we justify using techniques, technologies, characteristics, tactics, doctrines, etc used by older gen jet of 3rd, 2nd? NO.
Similarly we are already in era of 5th gen. This is digital era, information, EW & stealth matters. The # of new gen jets will be less supplemeted by 4th gen, that's there with every gen.
Super/Hyper-sonic missiles can be launched from ships, coast, subs & 4.5gen jets.
All types of radars & SAMs are deployed on both land & sea today.
5th gen jet uses sensor fused avionics to represent combined easy picture of battle irrespective of sea, land, air. It is not supposed to perform SEAD is a typical way a 4th gen jet did. Sinking of ship is not required, disabling its radar & sensors or command-deck can render it useless or far less effective. Like a sniper, F-117 dropped LGBs on SAM radars rendering the launchers useless, today a 5th gen jet do it with combined effect of EW, stealth, smaller more precise smarter weapons. F-22, F-35 can drop JDAMs, SDBs, etc. Future bombs & missiles will have multi-spectral sensors. Short range EMP bombs are being researched on.
If the Navy has to suffer indefinitely then Stealth & concept of 5th gen is the biggest lie & industial/military blunder in which AF has invested so much.

 

[Covfefe]

"Geometric stealth and material coating won't improve at the same pace"
Not true at all
In fact they're even new methods of enhancing stealth coming up.
Low observability is never fixed,the technology will continue to expand and grow.
regarding stealth FA even normal radars(ground based) can detect from a decent range but what about tracking?
It depends on RCS and how intelligent the machine is.
Let's take an example of f35
It can create false targets to spoof AD even if they detect and track it,they would be incapable to shoot it down.
+f35 can do sutter attacks as well to nullify any attack Air defense can do.
It depends on many factors and not only low observability.
Here I'm not even taking into account of standoff striking capabilities of stealth aircrafts

False target spoofing and Sutter attacks don't require stealth, even non-stealth planes can do that(more with EW warfare system). And standoff strike capabilities again has little to do with "stealth" part of the jet(munition plus guidance). F35 is a very capable machine, even stealth aside

My question was with regard to the stealth penalty vs reward for Carrier-borne jets(and thus the mission profiles) in light of TEDBF vs Naval AMCA.

 

[MonaLazy]

with all the weight constraints for a heavier landing gear and underbodyframe, the GEF414 are grossly inadequate. AL31 are another size class engine for Su-27 family sized jets.

Don't think so! How's the Rafale-M managing with 2x M88s? Please compare it's specs with 414. Never hear of it being under powered. First they got the 404, and that was underpowered. Now they moved up to 414 and even this is underpowered. May be we should just slap 3 or even 4 engines on our fighters- problem solved!

AL-31 is much larger dimensionally & best not taken to sea with it's salty air reducing life of an already maintenance heavy engine.

I think 414s are the best choice and TEDBF won't be underpowered at all- not by a long shot.

 

[SavageKing456]

False target spoofing and Sutter attacks don't require stealth, even non-stealth planes can do that(more with EW warfare system). And standoff strike capabilities again has little to do with "stealth" part of the jet(munition plus guidance). F35 is a very capable machine, even stealth aside

My question was with regard to the stealth penalty vs reward for Carrier-borne jets(and thus the mission profiles) in light of TEDBF vs Naval AMCA.

In that case too stealth has advantage because you can have standoff attack capabilities before warships can attack you
For attacking you need detection and tracking.
So a stealth aircraft will act faster than warship

 

[THESIS THORON]

Don't think so! How's the Rafale-M managing with 2x M88s? Please compare is source with 414. Never hear of it being under powered.

AL-31 is much larger dimensionally & best not taken to sea with it's salty air reducing life of an already maintenance heavy engine.

I think 414s are the best choice and TEDBF won't be underpowered at all- not even by a long shot.

but if we manage to put the jv engine in tedbf then it will wreak other fighter jets in high altitude
with its fucking huge t/w ratio.

 

[THESIS THORON]

@SavageKing456 what will be the aproxx rcs of amca, and tejas mk2, tedbf considering that next gen ram will be used in it ??