Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Dazzler]

ARDE website mentions new APFSDS developed for 100mm, 105mm and 125mm, no specifcations are given though.


http://www.modp.gov.pk/gop/index.ph...VzMS9maWxlL01vRFAlMjBEYXRhL2FyZGUucGRm&hl=2ed

 

[farhan_9909]

ARDE website mentions new APFSDS developed for 100mm, 105mm and 125mm, no specifcations are given though.


http://www.modp.gov.pk/gop/index.ph...VzMS9maWxlL01vRFAlMjBEYXRhL2FyZGUucGRm&hl=2ed

the design also seem different

seems like they have made some big modifications in the AK autoloader..

i hope it is not below 700-750mm.

 

[militarysta]

Picture or it didn't hapend

 

[Dazzler]

Picture or it didn't hapend

pic equals thousand words but the company developing the damn thing mentioned it in the list so it must be true.

need your expertise on these though

 

[volna]

pic equals thousand words but the company developing the damn thing mentioned it in the list so it must be true.

need your expertise on these though

Very interesting!Any info of this round:

 

[farhan_9909]

Very interesting!Any info of this round:

No official info available yet..and it seems like this round is yet to enter into productions.

 

[militarysta]

@Dazzler, @Damian, @Farhan and others - please don't do the mess in this forum and discuss ammo problems in ammo topic can we do that?

i have menhtioned this before and do it again, AZ autoloadr (it may look similar so i take it as a reference though my source said it is a vastly modified HIT design superficially similar to AZ type) in Ak has been modified since the tank came into service, it has 29 modifications to fit longer penetrators and other ammunition, then it was modified to fit Kombat ATGM again in 2005-06.

It's greate news for Pak.Army - if Ak can carry on Kombat in autoloader casettes then it can bring in casette projectile circa 730mm long. So it's circa (730-750mm?) max lenght projectile avaible in mod.Ak autoloader casette Akim was postin about Kombat in autoloaders. Kombat have first part circa 730mm long -so if Ak can get this GLATGM in autoloader casette...then there is no other option - casette is long enought to fin in it circa 730mm long projectile. So we have this problem explained and indeed Ak have longer autoloader casette and we have minimum lenght avaible for that. The maximum lenght for that hull is circa 750mm.

ARDE has been making many rounds not only those mentioned in the pdf. Pakistan got TOT for Type-2 penetrator from China in the 90s, janes has an article on it. Type-2M can penetrate more than 600mm armour at 2000 m, some say between 610-650mm at 2000m. AK-1 autoloader is again modified to fit longer rounds than Type-2M. Naiza-2 is rumoured to be able to penetrate 700mm at 2000 m. If true, this is awesome news for Pak armour

Well -on all avaible photos we can see what we can see -so projectile just slighty longer then 3BM42 (those Chineese APFSDS whit green balistic cap) Those APFSDS projectile have overall lenght circa 630-650mm and penetrator lenght whit circa 600mm (balistic cap + rod + fins) and rod (core) lenght circa 560-580mm. So it's better then 3BM42 and only slighty smaller then Sniviets-1. Penetartor whit that lenght shoud be able to perforate circa 600mm RHA at 2000m and maybe 650mm RHA under 1000m. So it's nice value.
IMHO "safe" value to give is between 600-650mm RHA at 2000m and circa 650mm RHA under 1000m.

shell velocity plays a big part in penetration, the one we know of, usual POF APFSDS has 1760m/s at 2000 m. New rounds may be faster

Projectile velocity is less importnat - 1555m/s muzzle M829A3 have the same MJ for penetrator (rod) as shorter but faster DM53 from L-55 gun. But M829A3 is longer (circa 20% more) and haevier. In fact they are many factors - we can have shorter but faster APFSDS, or longer whit composite sabot but mucht slower (M829A3) and they are other solutions. MBT gun ammos is very complicated thema.

even Type-2M can pretty much make a mess of any MBT in sub-continent.

well even if the new round penetration power stand at 600mm of rha at 2km.it can still disable any tank in south asia

Well circa 600mm at 2000m (maybe more) and 650mm RHA under 1000m is big value. In Asia without any doubt only 3 tanks have strong enought frontal armour:
1. Australian M1A1SA
2. Improved Singapour Leo-2A4

3. South Korean K2.
And propably it's all. Not even mentioned that 600mm RHA is enought to kill any tank from sides -so it's tactical problem.

 

[militarysta]

BTW: Indian T-90S vs those APFSDS are diffciult to estimatous.
Without andy doubt Kontalt-5 on T-90S turret and hull give nice protection against calssic APFSDS without some soultions developed to overpass ERA (like special balistic cap (tip) or segmented rod), inside Indian T-90 there is some Kanhan armour mutation cose Russian didn't seld their own solutions. So it's difficult to estimate indian tanks. I doubt if chineese and pakistani APFSDS rounds have ane solutions to overpass ERA armour - even on west only few rounds have that solutions for whole penetrator (M829A3, DM53, DM63, M338) and few others have those special balistic cap (tip) to overpass ERA without ignit it (M829A2? KEW-A3?, CHARM-3?).
Se even if Kanchan armour is not so "super" as Indian freinds calim then ERA on T-90 shoud help and limit APFSDS penetration for possible to stop by main armour value. But it's for frontal armour.

 

[Dazzler]

@Dazzler, please don't do the mess in this forum and discuss ammo problems in ammo topic can we do that?

i have no interest in derailing any thread, all i am doing is to share "available" info on pak ammunition and developments and to refute the argument that all Pakistan operates is Chinese. Sorry but this is not the case

Regards

 

[farhan_9909]

BTW: Indian T-90S vs those APFSDS are diffciult to estimatous.
Without andy doubt Kontalt-5 on T-90S turret and hull give nice protection against calssic APFSDS without some soultions developed to overpass ERA (like special balistic cap (tip) or segmented rod), inside Indian T-90 there is some Kanhan armour mutation cose Russian didn't seld their own solutions. So it's difficult to estimate indian tanks. I doubt if chineese and pakistani APFSDS rounds have ane solutions to overpass ERA armour - even on west only few rounds have that solutions for whole penetrator (M829A3, DM53, DM63, M338) and few others have those special balistic cap (tip) to overpass ERA without ignit it (M829A2? KEW-A3?, CHARM-3?).
Se even if Kanchan armour is not so "super" as Indian freinds calim then ERA on T-90 shoud help and limit APFSDS penetration for possible to stop by main armour value. But it's for frontal armour.

Brother do you have any info about the russian APFSDS given to india with t-90s.?there penetration power?are they given the best russia has?
i do have a question about t-90s autoloader but will ask the question in MBT thread

 

[militarysta]

Brother do you have any info about the russian APFSDS given to india with t-90s.?there penetration power?are they given the best russia has?
i do have a question about t-90s autoloader but will ask the question in MBT thread

Typical 3BM42 so guaranteed 460mm RHA at 2000m and achivable circa 500mm RHA at 2000m. Under 1000m it will be circa 500-540mm.
Second avaible in India 125mm round is Israeli Cl Mk.2 so 500-540mm RHA at 2000m -You can look on those Dazzler post http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-ammunition-18.html#post681464 about polish ammo 125mm it's almoust the same.
IMHO both ammo is not enought to kill Ak from front.

BTW: Of course Russian don't seld the best avaible technology to India, and they even don't sell key technology whit T-90S for India (ex: better gun, main armour, etc). In fact India gets technology on russian late 1980s. level - exept Fire Control Systems and thermal an night sights. And it's low possible that Russia will sell their best tank technology becouse Indian indsutry have very specific approach to license -they ussaly want full licence whit all technology and law possibility to reexport on global market. For that reson for example german MTU don't sell to India their best MB833 and MB873 or HPA engines but low cost and more cyvilian seriess...and it's only one example.

 

[farhan_9909]

Typical 3BM42 so guaranteed 460mm RHA at 2000m and achivable circa 500mm RHA at 2000m. Under 1000m it will be circa 500-540mm.
Second avaible in India 125mm round is Israeli Cl Mk.2 so 500-540mm RHA at 2000m -You can look on those Dazzler post http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/land-forces/39363-tank-guns-ammunition-18.html#post681464 about polish ammo 125mm it's almoust the same.
IMHO both ammo is not enought to kill Ak from front.

BTW: Of course Russian don't seld the best avaible technology to India, and they even don't sell key technology whit T-90S for India (ex: better gun, main armour, etc). In fact India gets technology on russian late 1980s. level - exept Fire Control Systems and thermal an night sights. And it's low possible that Russia will sell their best tank technology becouse Indian indsutry have very specific approach to license -they ussaly want full licence whit all technology and law possibility to reexport on global market. For that reson for example german MTU don't sell to India their best MB833 and MB873 or HPA engines but low cost and more cyvilian seriess...and it's only one example.

while i thought india has rounds with penetration power more than 700mm.
So the naiza DU round is pretty much similar to the russian APFSDS exported to india along with t-90s.

thanks for the reply

 

[militarysta]

while i thought india has rounds with penetration power more than 700mm.

Definetly not in APFSDS ammo case.
HEAT round - yes, of course LHAAT for example, but HEAT mm RHA perforation are not equal to APFSDS mm RHA perforation. Those are two completly diffrent stories.

 

[Akim]

@militarysta
You're mistaken "Cobra" and "Kombat" . He has long 1083 (675 + 408)mm, which allows to use it in tanks T-72B.

 

[militarysta]

Oh, my mistake. So 675mm is max?

 

[Dazzler]

while i thought india has rounds with penetration power more than 700mm.
So the naiza DU round is pretty much similar to the russian APFSDS exported to india along with t-90s.

thanks for the reply

3BM-42 sold to India is tungsten alloy penetrator, not DU one.

 

[methos]

 

[hest]

From otvaga2004, new russian ammunition

 

[militarysta]

Interesting...

STGN mesurment from those 3D

 

[average american]

US is upgrading all M1A1 tanks with steel encased depleted uranium armor, which has a density at least two-and-a-half times greater than steel. The depleted uranium armor will raise the total weight of the Abrams tank to 65 tons, but offers vastly improved protection in the bargain. The added protection from the depleted uranium armor is believed to be equivalent to 24 inches (610 mm) of RHA(Rolled homogeneous armour)