Tank Guns and Ammunition

[Kunal Biswas]

OMG... Kunal, I had wrote about CL3254 many many times here...It's the same round known as polish PRONIT.

]

I doubt coz IMI round says CL-3579MK-2 on which Pronit is based..

But this have number CL-3254 ?

 

[hest]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

About Lahat and Refleks (Invar), Kombat.

Lahat is Israeli anti-tank missile with tandem warhead configuration of 105mm caliber which can be adapted for use by any tank, 120mm, 125mm... as long as modifications in tank FCS are carried out, to incorporate Israeli guidance system with laser designator, otherwise it cannot be used.

105mm warhead caliber has perforation of no more than 700mm of RHA measured with medium hardness steel and impact on naked target, against target with ERA, figures are not provided (worse performance) . Contrary to people's beliefs, it is not a top attack missile, when fired from tank, it incides over target from 30 degrees from horizontal axis against designated point, so there is no possibility to hit vulnerable roof, only frontal armour on most situations.

With such perfromance, 2-3 missiles are necessary to disable modern tank (M1A2, etc), which is not good indication.

Lahat uses semi-active guidance system. For missile to impact on target, operator needs to maintain manually laser designation on target.

Laser designator used to guide missile needs to give powerfull reflection to be aquired by seeker, in fact it is necessary to point laser with power of a rangefinder on enemy tank :shocked: This, instead of giving tank ability to fight at extended range, will only reveal tank position, alert enemy tank from 5km range !!. Also to note, such guidance system is vulnerable against countermeasures, from system as Shtora, leaving missile blind and unable to aquire target behind aerosol curtain.

Refleks, (Invar), Kombat are tandem warhead missiles with range of 5km, 125mm caliber, perforation of about 900mm RHA after ERA.
They can be fired from current T-80U, T-80UD, T-90 tanks, and those which receive such upgrade.

During their developement, enphasis was put on countermeasures resistance, and safe operation without alerting target. They use laser-beam guidance, which is too weak radiation to be detected by enemy tank from long range (they anyway have such profile, that laser beam does not incide at target until last 2 seconds, too short frame to alert system and deploy countermeasures). Anyway it would be difficult to disrupt such guidance, as beam is not pointed against tank, but at missile.

1-2 missiles are enought to neutralise modern tank from frontal engagement (50% chance with each missile) from 5km.

Short conclusion:
Lahat
-Weaker warhead, less than 700mm perforation, more missiles needed to neutralise target
-Vulnerable laser guidance system, required powerfull laser to directly designate target, alerting enemy from long range and disrupting missile guidance

Invar, Kombat
+More powerfull warhead, 900mm perforation
+Target cannot be alerted, guidance cannot be disrupted

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

105mm warhead caliber has perforation of no more than 700mm

You missed CLGM when explaining Lahat..

Its a 120mm Lahat with 5km range..

 

[Damian]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

Contrary to people's beliefs, it is not a top attack missile, when fired from tank, it incides over target from 30 degrees from horizontal axis against designated point, so there is no possibility to hit vulnerable roof, only frontal armour on most situations.

Contrary to Your lies and advertisement of russian weapon system, LAHAT is top attack weapon. It is fired with high ballistic trajectory, so it will hit turret or hull roof. It is also BLOS system, of arange of 8,000m, and does not need to be guided from it's own firing platform, it can be also done by forward observer with laser marker.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

Contrary to people's beliefs, it is not a top attack missile, when fired from tank, it incides over target from 30 degrees from horizontal axis against designated point, so there is no possibility to hit vulnerable roof, only frontal armour on most situations.

Contrary to Your lies and advertisement of russian weapon system, LAHAT is top attack weapon. It is fired with high ballistic trajectory, so it will hit turret or hull roof. It is also BLOS system, of arange of 8,000m, and does not need to be guided from it's own firing platform, it can be also done by forward observer with laser marker.

If Its inclined coz its program to do so as per the target..

Judging from the comment it looks like you are talking with available photo as a proof..

 

[Damian]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

LAser Homing Attack Missile (LAHAT) - Army Technology
Lahat Laser Guided Missile

These and many sources says that LAHAT is top attack missile. Only Lidsky that is nothing more than Russia Strong Team advertiser, says otherwise. But what do You expect? It is a known fact that Russians for marketing starts very agressive black PR of any contender that can be dangerous or their exports... this is something not seen anywhere in the world, even Chinese do not have such agressive advertisement full of poison.

 

[hest]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

You missed CLGM when explaining Lahat..

Its a 120mm Lahat with 5km range..

It looks as Indian version for 120mm rifled gun, but it has same disadvantages as there is practically no change.

These and many sources says that LAHAT is top attack missile. Only Lidsky that is nothing more than Russia Strong Team advertiser, says otherwise. But what do You expect? It is a known fact that Russians for marketing starts very agressive black PR of any contender that can be dangerous or their exports... this is something not seen anywhere in the world, even Chinese do not have such agressive advertisement full of poison.

IAI

Maximum effective range: 6km
Hit angle: 30 degrees

With whom will you argue ??

 

[hest]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

This is Lahat operation:

LAHAT - Laser Homing Attack or Laser Homing Anti-Tank - YouTube

No top-attack, hit from 30 degrees on designated point, not possible to hit anything but frontal armour in most practical situations.

 

[Damian]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

This is Lahat operation:

LAHAT - Laser Homing Attack or Laser Homing Anti-Tank - YouTube

No top-attack, hit from 30 degrees on designated point, not possible to hit anything but frontal armour in most practical situations.

At 0:50-0:54 You have a direct hit in to turret roof... no top attack? I recommend You to go to doctor for eyeglasses.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

It looks as Indian version for 120mm rifled gun, but it has same disadvantages as there is practically no change.:

Sorry, I said 120mm warhead not 105mm Warhead modified for 120mm gun..

 

[hest]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

At 0:50-0:54 You have a direct hit in to turret roof... no top attack? I recommend You to go to doctor for eyeglasses.

?? It is clear hit in turret side, just were laser was designated.

Sorry, I said 120mm warhead not 105mm Warhead modified for 120mm gun..

It still shares the same problems, vulnerable guidance system.

 

[Damian]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

?? It is clear hit in turret side, just were laser was designated.

As I said, go and buy eyeglasses, evidently You have serious problems with eyes.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

It still shares the same problems, vulnerable guidance system.

What Vulnerable guidance system ?

 

[hest]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

As I said, go and buy eyeglasses, evidently You have serious problems with eyes.

Laser designator

Impact

What Vulnerable guidance system ?

I explained, semi-active laser seeker with designator, needed to point directly to target, and countermeasures disrupting guidance.

 

[Damian]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

Laser designator



Impact

? Yes we know that there is laser designator, as well as there was impact, You don't need to tell use...

I explained, semi-active laser seeker with designator, needed to point directly to target, and countermeasures disrupting guidance.

The best part here is Lidsky strongly belive that designers around the world that are not doing everything the same way as in soviet union or Russia are morons, and that laser designator will definetly trigger countermessures, but we should ask that he made a test, to be so sure about this, especially that Israelis use similiar laser detection systems as Russians, and are fully aware of capabilities of such laser warning systems. I doubt that they were not aware how to solve this problem, and solving it does not mean making a copy of soviet beam riding missiles.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

I explained, semi-active laser seeker with designator, needed to point directly to target, and countermeasures disrupting guidance.

There are countermeasure for every thing..

But regarding the type of countermeasure you are talking about is harder to escape from UAV if not ground troops or tank or the other tank .. .

 

[hest]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

? Yes we know that there is laser designator, as well as there was impact, You don't need to tell use...

For you clear impact on turret side is hit on roof ??

The best part here is Lidsky strongly belive that designers around the world that are not doing everything the same way as in soviet union or Russia are morons, and that laser designator will definetly trigger countermessures, but we should ask that he made a test, to be so sure about this, especially that Israelis use similiar laser detection systems as Russians, and are fully aware of capabilities of such laser warning systems. I doubt that they were not aware how to solve this problem, and solving it does not mean making a copy of soviet beam riding missiles.

You want me to show ?

Shtora

Spectral diapason (sensivity): 0.6-14 μm wavelenght

Lahat laser designator
http://starkaerospace.com/pdfs/POP300D Web Brochure.pdf

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:

Laser Designator & Range Finder:
Wavelength: 1.06 μm for designation mode
1.54 μm (eye-safe) for ranging mode

:shocked:

 

[Damian]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

For you clear impact on turret side is hit on roof ??

Well I see clearly impact on turret roof. And You are known for your bias towards anything non russian made. So STFU.

You want me to show ?

Shtora

Spectral diapason (sensivity): 0.6-14 μm wavelenght

Lahat laser designator
http://starkaerospace.com/pdfs/POP30...20Brochure.pdf

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS:

Laser Designator & Range Finder:
Wavelength: 1.06 μm for designation mode
1.54 μm (eye-safe) for ranging mode

Read again, or better read it again, when finally you will learn english fool.

I'am amazed how You even talk on english language forum, when You don't understand even simplest text in this language.

Only because something is in brochure, it does not mean that this is in reality. Everything need to be taken with grain of salt, also, and maybe especially data provided by Russians sources.

Also if You look at the video, laser designator is visible on target few second prior impact, not time for reaction.

Not to mention that Shtora is outdated system.

Besides this, I'm start to be tired with this fight with russia fanboys.

Not to mention that I should not really care, at least my country is slowly resigning from any equipment that is russia related, and obsolete. So who cares, You can advertise your toys as much as You wish.

 

[militarysta]

Re: Al-Khalid/MBT-2000 Main Battle Tank

About Lahat and Refleks (Invar), Kombat.

Oh Yes, it's very interesting thema

Refleks, (Invar), Kombat are tandem warhead missiles with range of 5km, 125mm caliber, perforation of about 900mm RHA after ERA.

Value 900mm RHA is taken from space and not according to the truth It fake to be onest but looks nice in promo material

Ussaly modern SC (HEAT) warhed have some realtio between perforation and diameter. It was the same for both side of barricade (NATO/ Warsaw Pact) and it's still relevant. Unfortunatly most of HEAT capabilities are overestimated.
Israeli claims that their clon DM-12 (HEAT-MP-T M325) can perforate more then 700mm RHA armour. For 120mm diameter warhed it's give relatio 5.83.
For really modern HEAT it's relatio equal to 6,5 with precursor.
In fact for all single HEAT warhed relatio between perforation and diameter is between 5.5 and 6.5.
And most of HEAT capabilities are overestimated. You can read on otvaga2000 Wasilija Frontanowa about Kobra - this GLATGM rare have more then 550-600mm RHA perforation (4.4-4.8 ratio)! In fact it's about 200mm RHA less then btvt claims. And In fact I trust more Frontanov then btvt and others...
For other side - Imroved TOW had only 650mm RHA perforation (5.1 ratio) when most sources claim that ITOW had 800mm RHA (6.2 ratio). And german DM-12 in theory had more then 700mm RHA perforation (5,8 ratio) but in fact it's guaranteed about 620-650mm RHA (5,1-5,4).
In fact almoust all HEAT capabilities are overestimated in peforation RHA thema -and exatly the same is about Russian ATGM's and GLATGM's.
I would like only to remind case when Kornet-E went to Arab Emirates. Russian ads claims that Kornet-E can perforate even 1200-1300mm RHA. And what? And those big 152mm warhed where able to perforate only 1000mm RHA. In newest Kornet form Tula ads clair claimd that newest Kornet version have increased perforation from 1100mm RHA to 1300mm RHA. So what was perforation for oldes ones? ;-) And we are talking about 152mm diameter warhed. And 125mm will have 900mm RHA "after ERA"?
Bullshit.
This all 900mm for Panzerfast-3IT, 750mm RHA for RPG-29, 900mm for Invarare taken for one RHA monoblock whit middle HB scale and used precursor and main warhed on this plate. But without ERA counteraction!
The more funny story is when we consider that there are moe then one perforation value. In fact we have:
a) achievable perforation (the best result -ussali this vaue is given in ads)
b) guaranteed perforation (military standard)
c) multi layers armour perforation (it's varies -diffrent fo each armor model)
And in fact old DM-12 have:
a) >700mm RHA
b) ~620-650mm RHA
c) on very erly Leopard-2 armour model (~1978-1979) about 450mm deep.

1-2 missiles are enought to neutralise modern tank from frontal engagement (50% chance with each missile) from 5km.

It's next nonsens:
a) typical fire range in Europe is less then 1500m (96%)
b) in tekst abur GLATGM it was about not "neutralise" but mobility kill and it's diffrense
b) this 750-800mm RHA perforation for Refleks/Invar (this is the correct value) it's to less to perforate front turret and in many case hull armour for +/-30. from longitiudal axis (turret) and +/-20. (hull).
BTW: even If Invar have this "900mm RHA after ERA" (which is bullshit) then it's still to less value. To destroy any tank HEAT wahed must have at lest 150mm RHA perforation bigerr value then armour protection.
So 900mm RHA warhed to ignit ammo or kill crew must perforate armour no stronger then 750mm RHA. In fact Burlinghton armour in middle 1970 achive simmilar protection...

 

[Damian]

This is why GLATGM's like 9M119 or Kombat are obsolete these days. Only BLOS and Top Attack GLATGM's as well as ATGM's have future. But why not to move further, why not resign from shaped charge warhead? Americans were experimenting with ATGM's and GLATGM's that instead of shaped charge warhead, had Depleted Uranium Penetrator inside. Such penetrator do not use velocity, because projectile have it's own propullsion. Of course to achieve proper penetration, such ammunition needs to be hypervelocity, but it is not a problem.

There was LOSAT ATGM with such penetrator inside, it was hypervelocity missile, and tests were successfull, even a small batch was fielded by US Army, and are kept somewhere in storage. Unfortunetly due to soviet union collapse and lack of enemy tank hordes waiting to cross the border, Congress cancelled the whole program... pity.