Tank Guns and Ammunition

[militarysta]

In Ukraine there was no gun manufacturing plant, and they converted production line for gas tubes for production of gun design directly from Soviet 2A46M.

And making such assumptions without any base...

Of course gun from 2005 will offer superior performance than from 80s due to advancement in design and production. But you assure there was no improvement.

I remember that, I have somhwere part article about Ukrainian tank industry and gun productions. And indeed KBA-3 could be slighty better then 2A46M5 becouse it's based on GIAT licences...from 1997r.

In 1997 GIAT industry share licences fot tank guns whit ukrainian industry. The how-know was about barrel and others gun parts for 120, 125 and 140mm caliber, and technology production line. Of course apart that GIAT share more licences (example: 120mm autoloader in turret bustle, etc)

 

[hest]

It is not news that Ukraine had no modern production base, and nothing inherited from USSR (facilities), but knowledge to produce older Soviet 2A46M gun, without compliance with intellectual rights... Thus they needed assistance to establish base for modern products, to reach modern level, and not 80s, with foreign assistance.

Howewer completely different situation in Russia which inherited scientifical and production facilities (Zavod 9, etc), therefore were able to make new developements on the field as gun 2A46M5 of new design and more advanced production method.

In fact they have more solid base than anything Giat has to offer...

 

[militarysta]

It is not news that Ukraine had no modern production base, and nothing inherited from USSR (facilities), but knowledge to produce older Soviet 2A46M gun, without compliance with intellectual rights... Thus they needed assistance to establish base for modern products, to reach modern level, and not 80s, with foreign assistance.

Howewer completely different situation in Russia which inherited scientifical and production facilities (Zavod 9, etc), therefore were able to make new developements on the field as gun 2A46M5 of new design and more advanced production method.

In fact they have more solid base than anything Giat has to offer...

In fact Ukrainian tank industry have many deals whit western industries (especially GIAT) depend on both sides HOW-KNOW. Western armies where interested about tested heavy ERA, APS hard kill (Drozd, Zaslon) and soft kill (Sztora) and others. And they have them in 90. from Ukrainia and Belarus. And for ukrainian tank industry nessecery was access to modern Thermal sight and...gun technologies and 120mm autoloaders. And GIAT sell this all to Ukraina in exchange for informations about other tchnology inforamtion (ERA, etc).

And GIAT have very good barrel. L52 in Leclerc is very very good. So it's not suprise that values for Ukrainian KBA-3 are better then avaible figures for 2A46M-xx.

 

[hest]

In fact Ukrainian tank industry have many deals whit western industries (especially GIAT) depend on both sides HOW-KNOW. Western armies where interested about tested heavy ERA, APS hard kill (Drozd, Zaslon) and soft kill (Sztora) and others. And they have them in 90. from Ukrainia and Belarus. And for ukrainian tank industry nessecery was access to modern Thermal sight and...gun technologies and 120mm autoloaders. And GIAT sell this all to Ukraina in exchange for informations about other tchnology inforamtion (ERA, etc).

Yes, indeed we have examples of cooperation, deals (Zaslon for Polish Anders, etc). Such access and cooperation was not possible in past times, now, both sides can benefit.

And GIAT have very good barrel. L52 in Leclerc is very very good. So it's not suprise that values for Ukrainian KBA-3 are better then avaible figures for 2A46M-xx.

It is better, same reason as 2A46M5 with modern production base and new design will be better than 2A46M of 80s. Of course, nothing surprising there.

 

[farhan_9909]

The gun of Basic AL KHALID

No more in production(earlier only blanks were imported from france)

nt much info is available on the specs of locally manufacture Gun.bt as per insider the gun caliber is higher than the one on Basic AK.

new gun for=Al Khalid I

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The gun of Basic AL KHALID
No more in production(earlier only blanks were imported from france)
nt much info is available on the specs of locally manufacture Gun.bt as per insider the gun caliber is higher than the one on Basic AK.
new gun for=Al Khalid I

You are the guy from FB, claiming Pakistan producing 2A46M4 or better ?

Provide some photos and details..

 

[Damian]

If Pakistan is manufacturing something is most probably Ukrainian KBA3 or some older 2A46M copies... or even Chinese ZPT-98 also 2A46M copy.

 

[farhan_9909]

You are the guy from FB, claiming Pakistan producing 2A46M4 or better ?

Provide some photos and details..

no official specs.(though as per insiders the gun caliber is higher than the previous(48 cal.)

 

[farhan_9909]

If Pakistan is manufacturing something is most probably Ukrainian KBA3 or some older 2A46M copies... or even Chinese ZPT-98 also 2A46M copy.

Sir why you think we need to copy others Gun?

as far as i know gun is nt a alien tech.

anyway some official info regarding the HMC
manufactured Gun.


A project to manufacture the first Pakistani tank
gun barrel was begun by Pakistan's Strategic
Plans Division (SPD), which was set up in 2000. In
April 2011, it was reported that the first Pakistani-
produced tank gun barrel was ready to be
delivered to HIT for installation on the Al-Khalid and Al-Zarrar. Previously, HIT imported 125 mm gun barrel blanks from France for the two tanks
which would then be machined in Pakistan by
HIT. The first Pakistani gun barrel blank was
produced at Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in a
joint project involving HIT, People's Steel Mills
Limited (PSML) and other defence-related organizations. The specialist grade steel was
produced at PSML and the resulting steel block
was passed on to HMC. HMC then pressed the
block to a length of 5 metres and square cross-
section, before forging it into a 125 mm
smoothbore barrel. The barrel was then heat treated several times in facilities such as a large
vertical furnace. The process took 2–3 months
and was watched by experts from other defence-
related organisations. The barrel was to be
capable of firing at 4 rounds per minute as well as
for compatibility with the autoloader and its 24 round magazine. According to a HIT official, a
joint team proved to the Pakistan Army that strict standards would be met before the army
approved production of a first batch of 50 gun
barrels by HMC. The Pakistani gun barrels would
likely be installed on upgraded versions of the Al-
Khalid which are under development by HIT. A
Rs200 million PKR contract has been finalised by HIT for the first 50 barrel batch, which is slightly
lower than the barrels imported from France. After
production of this first batch of tank gun barrels,
HIT is planning to explore manufacture of artillery guns

 

[farhan_9909]

dawn.com/2011/04/18/locally-produced-gun-delivered-to-hit-for-tanks/


8 rounds per minute not 4.


ISLAMABAD, April 17: The first locally-produced tank gun is ready for delivery to the Heavy Industries Taxila (HIT) for Al-Khalid and Al-Zarar tanks. So far the HIT used to get 125 millimetre `blanks`
from France for the two main battle tanks (MBTs)
of the Pakistan Army. Blanks are the final shape of
the gun barrel prior to its finishing and its fitting
into the tank is done at the HIT. The first blank has been jointly produced at the
Heavy Mechanical Complex (HMC) in Taxila by
experts of the HIT, the Peoples Steel Mills Limited
(PSML) of Karachi and other defence-related
organisations, in coordination with the army —
the end-user. An HIT official told Dawn that the army had given
a go-ahead for the production of 50 125mm
barrels for the two MBTs at the HMC after a joint
team assured it of meeting strict standards. According to sources, the army and the HIT
wanted the barrels to fire at least eight rounds a
minute, and for the automatic ammunition
handling system, with 24-round ready-to-fire
magazine of Al-Khalid tank. The official said that the manufacturing of the
first 125mm tank gun was an achievement of the
Strategic Plans Division (SPD) set up in 2000 to
improve the control of nuclear operations and
monitor and develop coordination among various
defence production and research organisations in the country. The specialised weapons grade steel was
manufactured at the PSML and the block of metal
was retreated at the HMC which has such facilities
under the heavy forge and foundry section. The
block of specialised metal is pressed to become a
five-metre-long square bar that is forged into a smooth bore 125mm barrel. The HMC also has specialised facilities of large
vertical furnace where the blanks are given heat
treatments several times. Since it was the first job
for the HMC, experts from other defence
organisations monitored the process which took
almost two to three months to complete. The HIT has finalised a deal Rs200 million for 50
barrels which is slightly less than the cost of each
barrel procured from France. The official said that after the completion of 50
tank barrels, the HMC would consider producing
artillery guns for the Pakistan Army. Al-Khalid is a product of a joint venture between
Pakistan and China. It has been in use of the army
since 2001. Al-Zarar is an upgradation of T-59
tanks. The new barrels are likely to be part of the
project for upgraded variants of Al-Khalid II and
III now under way at the HIT.

 

[Damian]

It is nothing more than a 2A46M/ZPT-98 copy.

It is so funny when such nations like Pakistan, just can't accept such simple fact with their oversized ego and ambitions.

Many nations with far more advanced military industry are also using copies of Rhinemetall guns. USA use their own version of Rh-120/L44 the M256/L44, Israeli MG251 and MG253 are also based on Rh-120, same goes for Japanese, South Korean or Turkish 120mm smoothbore guns, that are nothing more than Rhinemetall designs copies.

So I really not understand why Pakistan with much more primitive military scientific-industry base is capable to design it's own gun, and why they even should do this, if they use Chinese and Ukrainian tanks, use 125mm smoothbore gun standard two piece ammunition, so why the hell waste money and time?

Pakistan have good conection with China, I'am more than sure that Pakistani 125mm smoothbores are ZPT-98 derivatives, and ZPT-98 is nothing more than a 2A46M clone.

 

[Defcon 1]

Farhan

Your article doesn't mention that the guns were developed in pakistan too. Infact, there is no source about where they were developed

 

[farhan_9909]

well as per nabil the gun is modified/based on ukrainian


and nt even the basic variant of AK use chinese Gun

even the al zarar dnt use chinese gun.


the the basic AK till now used french gun
while AK1 is using the locally manufactured

 

[Damian]

If You say that it is all based on Ukrainian, then definetly KBA3 gun is a base for Pakistani developments. And KBA3 was designed by Ukrainians with help from France, so everything fits perfectly.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

If You say that it is all based on Ukrainian, then definetly KBA3 gun is a base for Pakistani developments. And KBA3 was designed by Ukrainians with help from France, so everything fits perfectly.

The gun of Basic AL KHALID

It Should sound more like Ordnance length rather than barrel length..

And it should be barrel weight rather than Ordinance weight..

Max Chamber pressure is just 575mpa, not 650mpa..?

 

[farhan_9909]

If You say that it is all based on Ukrainian, then definetly KBA3 gun is a base for Pakistani developments. And KBA3 was designed by Ukrainians with help from France, so everything fits perfectly.

his words on pak ukrainian relations(defence related) as well on the gun

While our military industry has come of an age
and designing/ producing our own AFVs with
sophisticated technologies, Pakistan Ukraine
military relations are quite deep, remember it was
Pakistan that gave them their largest military sale
and a respectable recognition in global arms market. Ukrainians respect this deeply so they are
ever ready to co-operate with us most of the
times. In fact, we have been co-operating for last
12-15 years! Lastly, we got the T-80uds during
the sanction period.

Buddy, i tell you that the gun which is a Pakistani
modified version of Ukrainian KBA-3 gun,
developed with French assistance is already too
powerful to drill through many famous.....u know

 

[Akim]

If You say that it is all based on Ukrainian, then definetly KBA3 gun is a base for Pakistani developments. And KBA3 was designed by Ukrainians with help from France, so everything fits perfectly.

KBA-3, it in fact is a soviet cannon of 2А46М, only done by a new method. The help of France here was not required.
I think, if Pakistan can to build missailes. That to manage producing of guns independently - a cunning is small.

 

[Damian]

Buddy, i tell you that the gun which is a Pakistani
modified version of Ukrainian KBA-3 gun,
developed with French assistance is already too
powerful to drill through many famous.....u know

What, You mean it can destroy any tank? Sure depending where You hit and what ammunition You will use.

Unfortunetly for You, APFSDS ammunition effectiveness (and APFSDS is basic anti tank ammunition used today) depends on several factors like penetrator lenght, diameter etc.

However as it was said many times, the problems with two piece ammunition for 125mm smoothbore guns is that they have limited penetrator lenght.

So while for NATO tanks penetrators lenght slowly somes close to approx ~1,000mm, only Russians recently redesigned their autoloader to fit inside projectile with penetrator lenght max ~740mm.

This is of course one factor.

Besides this don't be too excited, only tanks used by Pakistan that are worth to be interested in are T-80UD's sold to You by Ukraine. That Chinese export crap You use, the Al Khalid is not worth to be even excited with it.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

125mm Ukrainian KBM1M tank gun

125 mm KBM1M tank gun is intended for installation in main battle tanks T-72, T-72AG, T-72MP, as well as in their modifications, These Gun originally originated from 2A46M..

Calibre 125 mm
Breech type semiautomatic with horizontal placement of the wedge
Firing mechanism Electrical
Ordnance length 6000 mm
Ordnance mass 4,400 kilograms
Max Chamber Pressure 6500bars/ 650 MPa.

Barrel weight rather than Ordinance weight..

Max Chamber pressure is just 575mpa, not 650mpa..

Pakistan make a rip off with help of Chinese..

But Only made a degraded version of KBA3 gun..

 

[farhan_9909]

Pakistan make a rip off with help of Chinese..

But Only made a degraded version of KBA3 gun..

the gun in the picture is nt the latest we made locally..bt rather the old of whom blanks were imported from france and the rest of workvwas done HMC


bt now everything is done in HMC(manufacturing of blanks as well)

the gun is said to be bigger than the older on basic AK.

as per arslan(father works in HIT)
he said that the gun is 50cal.(older 48 cal.)

which translate to 6250 bars pressure

bt nabil said it is about 6500bars pressure


the official specs will be revealed in the ideas expo in november

so wait till than