Sukhoi PAK FA

[Bahamut]

I think you don't understand my words.
We are not going to buy the whole PAK-FA project. As per OFFICIAL sources , India will going to be a 50% partner in PAK-FA development at a cost of $4 billion. And further we need ~120 FGFA fighter which gives extra revenue (to be shared between both parties).
Total amount will going to be so High. That's why I present my view.

If we are partner by 50% than we should have the right to authorise/reject the sale of Aircraft to enemy Nations.

Till now we can reject the sale i

Whatever but FGFA funding can't be justified.

Look Russians have even openly denied full tech transfer, why halt funding for own program for that? Why fund their program?

Even of they give us full ToT we will not master the technology, it will take billions just to buy the equipment for large scale production, we also need high skill labour. We need in parallel make institution to absorb the tech, that will be at least 20$ billion but we can use it for future projects also. This one time super investment is needed and must be independent of AMCA or FGFA.

going without full tech transfer is foolish

No one give you full ToT, they just yell you the basic

It's foolish to fund their project at cost of own one. Only solution is funding India's own AMCA, now whatever it takes, superior or obsolete, it will be ours literally at least.

Both have seperate funding and IAF backing, they will cannibalize each other.

Paying for development, but you donot have access to tech nor you are involved in development , what a joke .

Things like design comes form trial and error, just read book on a single aircraft development you will find just how much money is used before final R&D starts, the money on proposal design etc are huge. We will get a ToT and some IPR, we funded the design things like radar, weapons systems, ECM were one their money and we get limited ToT on such systems.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

No one is foolish enough to ask for 100% TOT let alone giving them to another country. Don't go for media. Its their bread and butter. Do you have even single example of 100% tech transfer?

We don't even have example of such high case of funding what India is doing elsewhere. So, it's justified.
India was involved in providing dual phase motor, pneumatic accutation system and arms for seeker & motor in Barak 8, but FGFA? We don't even know anything about development. It's not a JV or even a partial tech transfer.
It's a normal plane deal drawing funding on name of JV.

100% tech transfer no?
I'm okay even with partial ToT which we will never get, we never got either. Screwdriver ToT & assembly isn't IP sharing.

Who said GOI is stopping funding of AMCA or other projects for FGFA.

Not even to say, funds went for FGFA but AMCA is still waiting.

Intact one of the reason GOI is pressuring Russia for early agreement on tech sharing is to help local efforts.

Yes, off course new government isn't involved in scam.
You will pressurize for full ToT, then, you'll get some.
Otherwise, they just are taking your money.

Even better solution, get those parts required for AMCA directly bought.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

MTA is a military medium lift aircraft and our RTA is a civil aircraft ,different class .We have no project that is alternative to MTA.

Airliner tech experience helps to make strategic airlifter.

Ka-226T and LUH are two different chopper for different role , they compliment each other.

I know.
I was reading Kunal's post where Russians were trying to push Ka-226T for other roles and cost was their argument.

But we are already facing problems with avionics and engines.
Still engines are not finalized. If this continues we may extend the dead line to 2030.

Development design phase is underway and engine will be finalized in this decade.

But if we keep spending money blindly for expertise of a fighter plane which we are never going to get, it's deadline will be dead.

Even of they give us full ToT we will not master the technology,

100 baaton ko ek baat, you aren't getting ToT, why to even fund FGFA?
Directly buy out of PAK FA or critical components for AMCA.

it will take billions just to buy the equipment for large scale production, we also need high skill labour. We need in parallel make institution to absorb the tech, that will be at least 20$ billion but we can use it for future projects also. This one time super investment is needed and must be independent of AMCA or FGFA.

May be, government too is establishing some of them and I know about semiconductor in details on my part.

Both have seperate funding and IAF backing, they will cannibalize each other.

Only one has funding, other got chiller!
And when funding is destined giving you NOTHING, by whatever the ready on Russian side.

Seriously, you can fill it with hundreds of arguments, FGFA funding can't be justified.

 

[Bahamut]

Airliner tech experience helps to make strategic airlifter.

There are huge differences -
1.A Military lifter needs low take off and landing speed and stop time.
2.A military lifter needs less volume but more lifting capacity
3.Ability to land in unpaved runway.
4.Ability to fly with high angle of attack
Plus more differences .Yes there are some common technology but my bet is that we will reach a new agreement for MTA with our FADEC engine but with more money about a billion .

May be, government too is establishing some of them and I know about semiconductor in details on my part.

Great ,I am learning Robotics and neural networks on my own but still the government has to spend . I watching a segment about SSJ-100 , they spend about 1$ billion dollar on new wind tunnel , in total they spend more then 10$ billion in just to upgrade hardware for testing.Imagine money for software and production upgrade.Only government can spend this money.I think we need ministry for advance technology which do stuff similar to DARPA

 

[Bahamut]

you aren't getting ToT, why to even fund FGFA?
Directly buy out of PAK FA or critical components for AMCA.

What we want is more IPR so we can use the technology of FGFA for other project without lawsuits. Plus this time we wants local raw materials to be used , this means we need to get production technology from Russia for these components.Then their is question if we can sell these components if they are installed in different system without Russian yes.The deal will be costly but we can get more IPR we can directly use these technology in AMCA reducing cost and time and increasing commonality .I want India to identity those technology we need and get IPR and ToT only for those

 

[AbRaj]

We don't even have example of such high case of funding what India is doing elsewhere. So, it's justified.
India was involved in providing dual phase motor, pneumatic accutation system and arms for seeker & motor in Barak 8, but FGFA? We don't even know anything about development. It's not a JV or even a partial tech transfer.
It's a normal plane deal drawing funding on name of JV.

100% tech transfer no?
I'm okay even with partial ToT which we will never get, we never got either. Screwdriver ToT & assembly isn't IP sharing.

Not even to say, funds went for FGFA but AMCA is still waiting.

Yes, off course new government isn't involved in scam.
You will pressurize for full ToT, then, you'll get some.
Otherwise, they just are taking your money.

Even better solution, get those parts required for AMCA directly bought.

Again don't blame Russians for our own incompetence. Russia as a seller will always like to maximize its profit. Its up to buyer to negotiate the deal in its favour. Chinese did it bit our babudom was only interested in short term gains at the cost of long term goals. For eg: instead of opening up industries and providing high quality jobs , all our govt did was paying few pennies to dig up tranches in the name of MANREGA. They have made railway as a tool to appease local population by announcing new trains on every election campaign.
Indians political system is eroding our future prospect.

BTW: we do got a lot of tech in past with Mig 21 deal, Su30,T72,Artilleries, AFVs, howitzers (Bofors) , etc but our PSUs and babudom never taken it seriously. They made HAL as an assembly lines for Russian and British aircrafts.
OFB is nothing but a Russian ammo, SLR and Ak clone assembly line
Can you believe we got better Mig 21 deal than Chinese , but we thrown entire TOT in dust bin ,while Chinese build their entire aircraft industry using that same aircraft.
PS: regarding funding, look at the F35 . F16 block 60 by UAE, Saab Gripen by Brazil. There are tons of example

 

[Bahamut]

@gadeshi Any info on Russian fly by optics,power by wire,Fly wireless and Intelligent flight control system?

 

[Indx TechStyle]

There are huge differences -
1.A Military lifter needs low take off and landing speed and stop time.
2.A military lifter needs less volume but more lifting capacity
3.Ability to land in unpaved runway.
4.Ability to fly with high angle of attack
Plus more differences .Yes there are some common technology but my bet is that we will reach a new agreement for MTA with our FADEC engine but with more money about a billion .

I'm aware of these challenges but Airliner is first basic step before venturing in this.

China also developed Y-20 post some airliners.
You can't imagine to develop a strategic airlifter when you have never operationalized a simple airliner. MTA also would have gone like PAK FA.
Fortunately, Saras & RTA were revived.

Great ,I am learning Robotics and neural networks on my own but still the government has to spend . I watching a segment about SSJ-100 , they spend about 1$ billion dollar on new wind tunnel , in total they spend more then 10$ billion in just to upgrade hardware for testing.Imagine money for software and production upgrade.Only government can spend this money.I think we need ministry for advance technology which do stuff similar to DARPA

Did you track NovaTech bot in Bangalore?
Looks nice.

What we want is more IPR so we can use the technology of FGFA for other project without lawsuits.

But we aren't getting this.
Within these 2-3 pages of discussion, it's been clarified and you guys are defending a scam instead of deal.

Again don't blame Russians for our own incompetence.

Nor I do so, my own friends are defending a deal with zero output.

For eg: instead of opening up industries and providing high quality jobs , all our govt did was paying few pennies to dig up tranches in the name of MANREGA.

Investment issue again!

Before having high quality jobs, you need high quality labor - the skilled labour (aware of skill India program?)

Government said that they have target to make 400 million skilled labourers by 2022, how much they succeed will decide the fate.

But regarding institutional capacity, India is still trying modify IITs into research institutions like Standford and not for absorbing foreign tech.

 

[AbRaj]

Investment issue again!

Before having high quality jobs, you need high quality labor

You post is contradictory. How can you get money or skilled workforce by digging trenches?
IMO all this hoopla is to put pressure on Russia to open up its closet. Fact is Russia can provide us better deal than US or France if she wants too.
This will actually prevent any future SCAM (bad deal).

............







..............................Thank you

 

[Bahamut]

Did you track NovaTech bot in Bangalore?
Looks nice.

NovaTech is mainly for hobby robots and educational corse

China also developed Y-20 post some airliners.

You must be aware of much tech China stole for Y 20 from Boeing and are yet to master completely.As for their airlines , just check for forign collaboration ,we also need this ,MTA will streamline it .

But we aren't getting this.
Within these 2-3 pages of discussion, it's been clarified and you guys are defending a scam instead of deal.

We are yet to sign the deal , do you what is the point of disagreement are ?We got ToT for al lot of products , wait and see.

Investment issue again!

Before having high quality jobs, you need high quality labor - the skilled labour (aware of skill India program?)

Government said that they have target to make 400 million skilled labourers by 2022, how much they succeed will decide the fate.

But regarding institutional capacity, India is still trying modify IITs into research institutions like Standford and not for absorbing foreign tech.

High quality jobs comes near R&D center as it is their where such technology are master.In high tech number do not matter quality matters .IIT are not research institution ,instead make institution which specialize in one area.

 

[Bahamut]

Again don't blame Russians for our own incompetence. Russia as a seller will always like to maximize its profit. Its up to buyer to negotiate the deal in its favour. Chinese did it bit our babudom was only interested in short term gains at the cost of long term goals. For eg: instead of opening up industries and providing high quality jobs , all our govt did was paying few pennies to dig up tranches in the name of MANREGA. They have made railway as a tool to appease local population by announcing new trains on every election campaign.
Indians political system is eroding our future prospect.

BTW: we do got a lot of tech in past with Mig 21 deal, Su30,T72,Artilleries, AFVs, howitzers (Bofors) , etc but our PSUs and babudom never taken it seriously. They made HAL as an assembly lines for Russian and British aircrafts.
OFB is nothing but a Russian ammo, SLR and Ak clone assembly line
Can you believe we got better Mig 21 deal than Chinese , but we thrown entire TOT in dust bin ,while Chinese build their entire aircraft industry using that same aircraft.
PS: regarding funding, look at the F35 . F16 block 60 by UAE, Saab Gripen by Brazil. There are tons of example

Our PSU need reform ,we need to drain the swamp and make them profitable again

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You post is contradictory. How can you get money or skilled workforce by digging trenches?

Post's not regarding earning money but at least not wasting it.

Highly Skilled labour will help to absorb or reverse engineer others' tech without ToT.

For now, what has been happening, the funding of FGFA, is nothing but a wastage of money & time for others.

IMO all this hoopla is to put pressure on Russia to open up its closet.

It won't.
It never did through the decades, it won't either.

Fact is Russia can provide us better deal than US or France if she wants too.

Voh hamare daddy ka naukar hai that "he wants to do?":biggrin2:
In that case, if anybody is in so much love, they will give us complete server & blueprints of entire database.

Don't fool yourself. Nobody wants to give you. They only want to take from you.
Now, it's India's stupidity if it's giving money for nothing.

This will actually prevent any future SCAM (bad deal).

A "zero deal" is worse scam than a "bad deal".
Directly buying PAK FA, you will get at least something to fly or some compenents for own fighter,
Funding FGFA and buying then with many times cost,

You are getting nothing additional.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

You must be aware of much tech China stole for Y 20 from Boeing and are yet to master completely.

Also, Ukraine sold them An-225 expertise (as per a Chinese member).

As for their airlines , just check for forign collaboration ,we also need this ,MTA will streamline it .

Not exactly, they were JVs but what's been happening on Indian side with Russia is just funding project & sit out of development & study of project.

We got ToT for al lot of products , wait and see.

Not really critical.

High quality jobs comes near R&D center as it is their where such technology are master.In high tech number do not matter quality matters .IIT are not research institution ,instead make institution which specialize in one area.

That's why I wrote about re modelling in Standford like research institution in IDDN thread but I don't know if it could copy anything.

 

[AbRaj]

Post's not regarding earning money but at least not wasting it.

Highly Skilled labour will help to absorb or reverse engineer others' tech without ToT.

For now, what has been happening, the funding of FGFA, is nothing but a wastage of money & time for others.

It won't.
It never did through the decades, it won't either.

Voh hamare daddy ka naukar hai that "he wants to do?":biggrin2:
In that case, if anybody is in so much love, they will give us complete server & blueprints of entire database.

Don't fool yourself. Nobody wants to give you. They only want to take from you.
Now, it's India's stupidity if it's giving money for nothing.

A "zero deal" is worse scam than a "bad deal".
Directly buying PAK FA, you will get at least something to fly or some compenents for own fighter,
Funding FGFA and buying then with many times cost,

You are getting nothing additional.

Again talking patriotic on forum is onething, planning as an IAF planner is entirely different.
No country in its sane mind want to become a North Korea.
PAKFA is a desperate attempt to counter Chinese J20 and pakis JF 31. One is in service and other is in advanced stages.
You can't fight actual fighter aircrafts with some paper plane.

And Russia has given us a lot in past and I'm sure we can gain them even more in near future.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Again talking patriotic on forum is onething, planning as an IAF planner is entirely different.

This is nothing patriotic but common sense.
Open up your eyes, a scam was occurring in front of you.
Thankfully GOI's question has freezed this in mid where it will remain now always because Russia would never give ToT even for money.

PAKFA is a desperate attempt to counter Chinese J20 and pakis JF 31. One is in serv

What is JF31?
Second, no war is floating on our head. Relations with China are still moderate and Pakistan isn't even near to take on.

Plane excuses to push a scam ahead, Russian lobby.

 

[Bahamut]

Not exactly, they were JVs but what's been happening on Indian side with Russia is just funding project & sit out of development & study of project.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21#Design
Also
The governments of Russia and India agreed to produce the aircraft for their respective armed forces and for friendly third-party countries, and to develop a civilian variant of the MTA in the form of a 100-seater passenger airplane, for which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) – owned by the Indian government – will be the lead partner and principal integrator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAC/HAL_Il-214
MTA was to help our civilian airlines too, at present the negotiation are still on and I hope we get the needed engine with FADEC.

That's why I wrote about re modelling in Standford like research institution in IDDN thread but I don't know if it could copy anything.

IIT lack the funding but also work culture of Research institute, better start from the scratch and build new one with collaboration with Industry and Armed forces .Let the institute also get funding directly from private companies and citizen along with government .Also let them focus on one area of technology(like we have for mines) .One institute for materials,one for aerospace,one for space, one for computing,one for quantum mechanics,one for semi conductors,one for photonics, one for geology, one for bio tech, one for nano tech,one for genetics,one for production ,one for energy,one for mechanics ,one for mathematics,one for immunology ,one for propulsion,one for hydrodynamics ,one for human machine interaction,one for zoology ,one for botany ,one for weather research ,one for single cell organism ,one more marine technology and enviroment.These many will be enough for nest 15 years ,give funding of JNU and DU to these institutes.Also our armed forces need have their own institute for technical training.

 

[Indx TechStyle]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comac_ARJ21#Design
Also
The governments of Russia and India agreed to produce the aircraft for their respective armed forces and for friendly third-party countries, and to develop a civilian variant of the MTA in the form of a 100-seater passenger airplane, for which Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) – owned by the Indian government – will be the lead partner and principal integrator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UAC/HAL_Il-214
MTA was to help our civilian airlines too, at present the negotiation are still on and I hope we get the needed engine with FADEC.

Wasn't the hole created planned to be patched up by Superjet 100?
Discussed elsewhere.

IIT lack the funding but also work culture of Research institute, better start from the scratch and build new one with collaboration with Industry and Armed forces .Let the institute also get funding directly from private companies and citizen along with government .Also let them focus on one area of technology(like we have for mines) .One institute for materials,one for aerospace,one for space, one for computing,one for quantum mechanics,one for semi conductors,one for photonics, one for geology, one for bio tech, one for nano tech,one for genetics,one for production ,one for energy,one for mechanics ,one for mathematics,one for immunology ,one for propulsion,one for hydrodynamics ,one for human machine interaction,one for zoology ,one for botany ,one for weather research ,one for single cell organism ,one more marine technology and enviroment.These many will be enough for nest 15 years ,give funding of JNU and DU to these institutes.Also our armed forces need have their own institute for technical training.

Will be planted in new IITs but at least started modified.

 

[Anikastha]

Development design phase is underway and engine will be finalized in this decade.

Seriously ...decade?
China has two birds flying over tibet region region.
Even in worst case china decided to donate few 5-6 birds there will be power shift.
Of course not on large scall but its enough to create havoc in New Delhi.
Actually they said 2022 now they say 2025 ...after 3 years they will extend 2030 and then news will come out deal is scrapped.
I bet you the day AMCA inducted into IAF (let us say)..tab tak mera shaadi bhi hojayega aur do bache bhi honge .

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Seriously ...decade?

Not over decade, I said within this decade means before 2020.

Preliminary Design phase has been completed, developmental design phase has started.
I have put some details on AMCA on main thread.

Even in worst case china decided to donate few 5-6 birds there will be power shift.

5-6 birds trumping world's fourth largest air force!!

Are you sure that these birds aren't monkey king themselves?

Actually they said 2022 now they say 2025 ...after 3 years they will extend 2030 and

Update karle khud ko, nothing was being done at that time.

For now, ₹100 crores were released by GOI for designing.
preliminary design phase completed
Development design phase (means deciding what engines Radar, weapons & integration started).

First Flight: 2022
Introduction into AF: 2030
This is official now!

One reason for delay in induction is stealth data. Stealth data & features in AURA UCAV will corporated in AMCA.

then news will come out deal is scrapped.

The only deal scrapped will be AMCA.
Indigenous projects are never scrapped.
Even if they are, then the new government after election always revives them.

Heard of NAL Saras & RTA?

I bet you the day AMCA inducted into IAF (let us say)..tab tak mera shaadi bhi hojayega aur do bache bhi honge .

Meri zindagi ka haal Tejas aur Arjun ki timeline se bura hai!
Baat pakki hone ke ek saal baad sagayi hui aur sagayi ko bhi teen saal ho gaye.

Shaadi ko jaane kitna time lagega.

Bas mujhe reservation me lagake job kar rahi hai!
Voh pata ni kab ayegi baaki mai kuchh ni kar sakta tb tak.

Isn't that familiar to the song?
http://s320.ve.vc/data/320/33447/273523/Bad Baby - Gippy Grewal (DjPunjab.Com).mp3

 

[AbRaj]

This is nothing patriotic but common sense.
Open up your eyes, a scam was occurring in front of you.
Thankfully GOI's question has freezed this in mid where it will remain now always because Russia would never give ToT even for money.

What is JF31?
Second, no war is floating on our head. Relations with China are still moderate and Pakistan isn't even near to take on.

Plane excuses to push a scam ahead, Russian lobby.

Are you a prophet or what?
Can you give us guarantee ?? At least for 25 years? If yes then great... We should now disband IA ,IAF and IN coz they are sucking money for nothing.

JF31= Ruhani version of Chinese J31 to be sent by Muhammad for ghazwae hind