Sukhoi PAK FA

[smestarz]

There are two ways to look at it,
a) You are paying half because you want that plane as per your requirements because you have neighbours like China and Pakistan. For F-35 UK is also paying for development and being part of it, but they dont get entire ToT
Thus when you are paying for 50% of development cost is because you want the plane ready fast, as you know your country takes sweet time to even purchase . red tape
b) Paying for development is one thing but paying for specific developments is another, there might be a lot of main and sub developments, and just paying 50% you want to get 100% ToT of those?

It all comes down to how we negotiate. We want our defence industry to develop, but surely some of the critical tech the russians will not want to part with. Even with French, wonder how many hours of Screw driver tech they teach us

If you are paying for half the entire development it is not preposterous at all.

 

[mahesh]

As T-50s ready for induction with Russia. I'm not understanding India's point of sharing the project. Is it sort of partnership which the research has already been done. Are we talking of paying for that past research or the research and development of future purpose

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[AbRaj]

Not really,

India lags in making a supermaneuverable fighter lacking things like 3D thrust vectoring

but India can go ahead alone in making a 5g figher if it can tolerate a few wishes because it has rest of techs.

Even EOTS & UVLS are few technologies where India has edge of over Russia (correct me if I'm wrong because I know India can make these technologies but never heard about Russia having it. EOTS is very relevant to make a fifth generation fighter.:biggrin2.

IAF uses French and Israeli electro optical pods, Russia too. But they have their own hitech EO pods too in final stages.
India in Aeroindia 2017 shown some basic pods but nothing cutting edge.
We stands nowhere against Russia in Aerospace industry.
They are designing ,developing and manufacturing every type of aircraft (civilian and military) of their own since WW1
OTOH Our lone ”indigenous” aircraft is 80% foreign by cost. Still due to achieve FOC. "TOO LITTLE TOO LATE”

BTW what 5th gen tech India have right now??
1. Stealth tech..... No
2. Advanced radar... No
3. Advanced networking... No
4. Supercruise engine...sigh
5.Long range BVRs...No
6. Highly maneuverable WWR...No


Am I missing something???

 

[TPFscopes]

Demand for full tech transfer could derail Indo-Russian FGFA

 

[Indx TechStyle]

India in Aeroindia 2017 shown some basic pods but nothing cutting edge.

Remember what I said?

India can go ahead alone in making a 5g figher if it can tolerate a few wishes because it has rest of techs.

Great Nations aren't built on borrowed technology, rest is your PoV.

We stands nowhere against Russia in Aerospace industry.

Means kill our own reasonable industry?

They are designing ,developing and manufacturing every type of aircraft (civilian and military) of their own since WW1

What's problem in India too doing this then?

OTOH Our lone ”indigenous” aircraft is 80% foreign by cost.

Source??
Even if true (though I know your claim is utter false, possibly paid by Russian lobbies ), LCA is 60% indigenous in weight & 71% in numbers.
Indigenous content has always been way cheaper than phoren maal.

Do you know that what was Russia's complaint in Ka-226T deal? That HAL was offering LUH at a fraction of cost.

Crash of MTA project only helped India to push it's own airliner project ahead.

Still due to achieve FOC. "TOO LITTLE TOO LATE”

Not really, it's pretty nice in light fighter class.
Regarding timeline, several problems were there, I don't wanna list up on this thread which were much different from technological challenge.

1. Stealth tech..... No

Not really, AMCA's preliminary design is already stealthier than PAK FA.

India will further be gaining stealth data from AURA UCAV project.

2. Advanced radar... No

Uttam (first attempt ) holds around 700 TR modules.
Means making an "advanced AESA Radar" with 1500-2000 TR modules isn't a challenge now. India has also been working on own GaN & I have reports from semiconductor laboratory.

3. Advanced networking... No

Elaborate

4. Supercruise engine...sigh

That's the restaurant style now!:biggrin2:

Chinese even agreed to accept a fighter without supercruise initially but IAF plane rejected.
You can use it without supercruise too. It won't be having any major application in near future.
This is just an argument to avoid indigenous fighter & engines in order to use imported one! Utter scam!

5.Long range BVRs...No

Ever heard of Astra?

6. Highly maneuverable WWR...No

Technology simply can be imported from elsewhere or attempted to develop own.

I don't find it a valid argument to surrender entire program.

Am I missing something???

Electro Optical Targeting Systems?

 

[Bahamut]

LCA is 60% indigenous in weight & 71% in numbers.

The engine is american ,the canopy is from a Canadian company , the ejector seat is British and our radar is not close to ready .What matter are no of critical components made in India .

Uttam (first attempt ) holds around 700 TR modules.
Means making an "advanced AESA Radar" with 1500-2000 TR modules isn't a challenge now. India has also been working on own GaN & I have reports from semiconductor laboratory.

The problem in AESR is cooling ,it will be encounter when air test starts when keeping the radar cool with limited power output ,it will take at least 5 years to master.

Not really, AMCA's preliminary design is already stealthier than PAK FA.

India will further be gaining stealth data from AURA UCAV project.

Stealth is more then design,what about jammer capability.If it is more stealthy then by which angle ?

Crash of MTA project only helped India to push it's own airliner project ahead.

MTA is a military medium lift aircraft and our RTA is a civil aircraft ,different class .We have no project that is alternative to MTA.

Do you know that what was Russia's complaint in Ka-226T deal? That HAL was offering LUH at a fraction of cost.

Ka-226T and LUH are two different chopper for different role , they compliment each other.

 

[AbRaj]

Remember what I said?

Great Nations aren't built on borrowed technology, rest is your PoV.

Means kill our own reasonable industry?

What's problem in India too doing this then?

Source??
Even if true (though I know your claim is utter false, possibly paid by Russian lobbies ), LCA is 60% indigenous in weight & 71% in numbers.
Indigenous content has always been way cheaper than phoren maal.

Do you know that what was Russia's complaint in Ka-226T deal? That HAL was offering LUH at a fraction of cost.

Crash of MTA project only helped India to push it's own airliner project ahead.

Not really, it's pretty nice in light fighter class.
Regarding timeline, several problems were there, I don't wanna list up on this thread which were much different from technological challenge.

Not really, AMCA's preliminary design is already stealthier than PAK FA.

India will further be gaining stealth data from AURA UCAV project.

Uttam (first attempt ) holds around 700 TR modules.
Means making an "advanced AESA Radar" with 1500-2000 TR modules isn't a challenge now. India has also been working on own GaN & I have reports from semiconductor laboratory.

Elaborate

That's the restaurant style now!:biggrin2:

Chinese even agreed to accept a fighter without supercruise initially but IAF plane rejected.
You can use it without supercruise too. It won't be having any major application in near future.
This is just an argument to avoid indigenous fighter & engines in order to use imported one! Utter scam!

Ever heard of Astra?

Technology simply can be imported from elsewhere or attempted to develop own.

I don't find it a valid argument to surrender entire program.

Electro Optical Targeting Systems?

Dude I appreciation you're patriotism. And trust me I'm not a paid bot.
I'm not going to discuss all these points in detail due to lack of time.
But trust me we are midgets in hitech aviation industry. Though you can consider LCA comparable or better than PAKFA and F22, but it doesn't change the realities on ground a bit. There is a reason we are buying 4th gen Rafael at exorbitant price rather mass manufactured aur 5th gen AMCA and aura.
BTW Astra is not a LRBVRM and certainly not modern. It uses last generation seeker imported by Russia.
And Weight is not proportional to cost.
You can't buy 1 kg diamond at the cost of 1 kg cow dung.
Racer+engine+armaments cost about 70% of a fighter jet . kindly do some homework.

Also TRmodules is not equal to a fighter jet Radar. Uttam is an experimental design which may evolve in a good combat grade AESA radar in future (I wish)
PS: Regarding EOTS tell me something about it? We neither have modern sensors nor weapons to integrate. All we have right now is few LRUs in development. And please don't compare with Russia. FYI they have AESA radar and sensor fusion in their gogdamn Tank now.


And pakis and chinis are not going to wait for our tech to mature.

 

[gadeshi]

@AbRaj is completely right.
In every word.
And of course all the great nations borrow each other tech all the time.
Russian (pre-Soviet) aviation has started from Wright, Pharman and Voisine flying toys.
Soviet aviation has started from... DH-9 English biplane!
So borrowing the tech is not bad at all in the case you will not only borrow it...
P.S.: If you want to see Russian EOTS you can google about 101-KS.

 

[AbRaj]

@AbRaj is completely right.
In every word.
And of course all the great nations borrow each other tech all the time.
Russian (pre-Soviet) aviation has started from Wright, Pharman and Voisine flying toys.
Soviet aviation has started from... DH-9 English biplane!
So borrowing the tech is not bad at all in the case you will not only borrow it...
P.S.: If you want to see Russian EOTS you can google about 101-KS.

People mostly ignore the fact that whatever we are developing right now are in fact with the knowledge gained by mostly from Russian and some other western sources.
Its true that we are till now, not very eager and successful in adapting the gained know-how for local manufacturing.
But blaming Russia for that is foolish.
Rather we should cooperate with them to produce and develop locally. I'm sure Russian companies don't mind setting up local plant here for their regional market and also sharing some technologies.
One big problem with Russian companies right now is their poor after sales support . Which can be solved by opening MRO facilities and stock reserve here.
Tank and artillery ammunition is another similar thing. We have hard time importing shells for T90 and T72.
Small arms is also an untapped market by Kalashnikov .BTW I'm fan of camouflaged AK version spetsnaz use, which have proper rails for optical sights and other accessories. Also we desperately need sniper rifle (not SVD)


People generally ignore what Russia is in terms of technological capabilities.
When they talk about high tech fighter jet, all comes in their mind is some fancy looking F22 and few lines propagated by western media.

Russia may be lacking in some areas but they are either on par or better than than western counterparts in most parts.

BTW news is coming that Syrian S200 shot down Israeli F16? Is it true??


PS: I would love to see our next mediam weight tank inspired from T14 Armata.

 

[gadeshi]

People mostly ignore the fact that whatever we are developing right now are in fact with the knowledge gained by mostly from Russian and some other western sources.
Its true that we are till now, not very eager and successful in adapting the gained know-how for local manufacturing.
But blaming Russia for that is foolish.
Rather we should cooperate with them to produce and develop locally. I'm sure Russian companies don't mind setting up local plant here for their regional market and also sharing some technologies.
One big problem with Russian companies right now is their poor after sales support . Which can be solved by opening MRO facilities and stock reserve here.
Tank and artillery ammunition is another similar thing. We have hard time importing shells for T90 and T72.
Small arms is also an untapped market by Kalashnikov .BTW I'm fan of camouflaged AK version spetsnaz use, which have proper rails for optical sights and other accessories. Also we desperately need sniper rifle (not SVD)


People generally ignore what Russia is in terms of technological capabilities.
When they talk about high tech fighter jet, all comes in their mind is some fancy looking F22 and few lines propagated by western media.

Russia may be lacking in some areas but they are either on par or better than than western counterparts in most parts.

BTW news is coming that Syrian S200 shot down Israeli F16? Is it true??


PS: I would love to see our next mediam weight tank inspired from T14 Armata.

Now (from 2010 I guess) all that sort of services are centralized under Rostec hood, so no worries about support, it is and will be strong here. Su-30MKI support and upgrade treaty speaks for this.
And of course Rostec has built a huge JV plant to produce tank cannon rounds (from 30 to 125MM) which first production rounds you could see at two latest expos.
Support is always about serious mother structure approach and attention.

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[Indx TechStyle]

Dude I appreciation you're patriotism. And trust me I'm not a paid bot.
I'm not going to discuss all these points in detail due to lack of time.

Whatever but FGFA funding can't be justified.

Look Russians have even openly denied full tech transfer, why halt funding for own program for that? Why fund their program?

 

[Alok Arya]

Whatever but FGFA funding can't be justified.

Look Russians have even openly denied full tech transfer, why halt funding for own program for that? Why fund their program?

Yes , going without full tech transfer is foolish . Paying for development, but you donot have access to tech nor you are involved in development , what a joke . Better will be buy f35 , which is technologically superior and also get some tech as offset .

 

[Indx TechStyle]

Better will be buy f35 , which is technologically superior and also get some tech as offset .

Liked your post for rest of part, not this.

Because India won't be getting anything in F-35 either. Nobody shares it's IP with you.

It's foolish to fund their project at cost of own one. Only solution is funding India's own AMCA, now whatever it takes, superior or obsolete, it will be ours literally at least.

 

[AbRaj]

Whatever but FGFA funding can't be justified.

Look Russians have even openly denied full tech transfer, why halt funding for own program for that? Why fund their program?

No one is foolish enough to ask for 100% TOT let alone giving them to another country. Don't go for media. Its their bread and butter. Do you have even single example of 100% tech transfer?


Who said GOI is stopping funding of AMCA or other projects for FGFA. Intact one of the reason GOI is pressuring Russia for early agreement on tech sharing is to help local efforts.

 

[TPFscopes]

Personal View:
Russian economy won't allow them to deny FGFA Contract. There is a very high probability of ToT but may be there will hear hike in amount.

 

[AbRaj]

Personal View:
Russian economy won't allow them to deny FGFA Contract. There is a very high probability of ToT but may be there will hear hike in amount.

Do you understand how much it costs to buy entire IPRs related to a 5th gen jet like PAKFA??
Even IP rights of a BVR ( seeker+ propulsion) would cost you billions.
Only Chinese are capable enough to buy such huge among of IPR due to deep pockets.

 

[Anikastha]

Liked your post for rest of part, not this.

Because India won't be getting anything in F-35 either. Nobody shares it's IP with you.

It's foolish to fund their project at cost of own one. Only solution is funding India's own AMCA, now whatever it takes, superior or obsolete, it will be ours literally at least.

But we are already facing problems with avionics and engines.
Still engines are not finalized. If this continues we may extend the dead line to 2030.

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[Anikastha]

Personal View:
Russian economy won't allow them to deny FGFA Contract. There is a very high probability of ToT but may be there will hear hike in amount.

China has already got two 5th generation birds flying.
Literally pressure is on us not on Russians.
They know we will get FGFA. As @Indx TechStyle said US won't share IP with us.
We have only choice for 5th gen is FGFA and AMCA. Later one needs critical stuff which we don't have.
Not tell me how many years can India keep asking Russia for tech?
We lose air edge.

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[TPFscopes]

Do you understand how much it costs to buy entire IPRs related to a 5th gen jet like PAKFA??
Even IP rights of a BVR ( seeker+ propulsion) would cost you billions.
Only Chinese are capable enough to buy such huge among of IPR due to deep pockets.

I think you don't understand my words.
We are not going to buy the whole PAK-FA project. As per OFFICIAL sources , India will going to be a 50% partner in PAK-FA development at a cost of $4 billion. And further we need ~120 FGFA fighter which gives extra revenue (to be shared between both parties).
Total amount will going to be so High. That's why I present my view.

If we are partner by 50% than we should have the right to authorise/reject the sale of Aircraft to enemy Nations.

 

[AbRaj]

Mutually beneficial agreement can be done wrt further development , manufacturing , sales and profit sharing. Its very logical to do so

I think you don't understand my words.
We are not going to buy the whole PAK-FA project. As per OFFICIAL sources , India will going to be a 50% partner in PAK-FA development at a cost of $4 billion. And further we need ~120 FGFA fighter which gives extra revenue (to be shared between both parties).
Total amount will going to be so High. That's why I present my view.

If we are partner by 50% than we should have the right to authorise/reject the sale of Aircraft to enemy Nations.

PS: 4 billion (even more) is just for developmental work.
India is spending of this project to come to final production. Even we earlier showed interest in actual involvement in development, but Russia denied it citing the near complete development and our lack of experience in such project. Nevertheless India is negotiating for right to customize it as much as it want ( like Su30 mki, Japanese ,UAE and Isreali F16 variants,) as well as accessto source code for future local weapon integration
Also right to market it and sell it to friendly countries with Russian clearance on profit sharing basis( like FC1/Jf17)
I see nothing objectionable it it