Sukhoi PAK FA

Indx TechStyle

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Are you a prophet or what?
A 25 years old military enthusiast and ocassional writer who tracks political & economic developments along with this too.
Trust me, two front war threat has simply been over hyped by media.
Can you give us guarantee ?? At least for 25 years?
China? 50 years! (Besides SCS like great issue).
Pakistan? Unpredictable!
If yes then great... We should now disband IA ,IAF and IN coz they are sucking money for nothing.
Or patching the gap up instead of making stupid attempts by funding others' projects.

Indian Forces still operate overseas and a way of throwing weight.
JF31= Ruhani version of Chinese J31 to be sent by Muhammad for ghazwae hind
Source for existence of any such project & don't come up with a useless one.

It was rumour spread by a paki website Superpowerpakistan.com who is still busy doing so. JF31 is as real as Light Stealth Aircraft!

Last time this website claimed that pakis made tennis ball sized nukes.
You can search that thread on forum.:bounce:
 

lcafanboy

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Russia cannot give India sophisticated Stealth Technology


On Mar. 9 the Times of India reported that Delhi is making extra demands to Moscow when it comes to the joint production of a Fifth-Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA). Citing sources in the Indian Defence Ministry, the report said that India would go in for this joint venture only under the condition of a full-scale technology transfer and if Russia provided help in the development of the indigenous Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

According to the paper, the Indian side bases such demands on the experience of the Sukhoi-30MKI jet acquisition programme, which cost India Rs 55,717 crore ($8.4 billion) without any “tangible help in developing indigenous fighter-manufacturing capabilities.” The recipient company Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) is still unable to manufacture the Sukhois on its own, the paper noted.

RIR asked experts to explain whether Indian demands were justified and where the real problem lay.


‘Red line’ in technology transfer ::

Without a doubt, there are some limitations on the extent to which a country would transfer its military technology, experts believe. According to Alexander Ermakov, expert at the Russian International Affairs Council (RIAC), this especially concerns critical types of technology that influence the ability of a country to ensure its security: most importantly missile technology, communications and electronic warfare systems.

The limitations always vary depending on the client. While bilateral relations do play a role, it is also important for a partner to “bargain” for certain technology, Ermakov thinks.

“If Indonesia, for instance, makes a request to Russia for a batch of 8-12 Su-35 multi-role fighters, it is unlikely that Moscow would discuss any technology transfer,” Konstantin Makienko, Deputy Director of the Moscow-based Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, explains. “On the contrary, when China bought 48 Su-27 aircraft in early and mid-1990s, this allowed for an opportunity to transfer this technology to China within a licensed production contract.” The larger the amount of requested supplies, the better is the chance for discussing potential technology transfer, Makienko believes.

Trading technologies is also much easier for a country like Russia when a partner shares the same geostrategic and military interests and there is a history of past fruitful cooperation. India is in the best position here, unlike Pakistan, which Makienko calls “unstable and unpredictable and to an extent, an analogue of Ukraine in South Asia.”


Privileged partnership with India ::

While India is enjoying a privileged status among Russian partners, there are obstacles that hamper it from producing Russian defence technology using its own industrial capabilities.

“Moscow puts no limitations whatsoever on military technology transfer to Delhi,” Vasily Kashin, senior research fellow at the Moscow Based Institute for Far Eastern Studies and at the Higher School of Economics, told RIR.

He says it is the ability of India to pay for a certain technology and localize it that determines the scale and effectiveness of such cooperation. The problem with the Su-30MKI case is that the progress is not happening as fast as planned due to difficulties in local industrial production, lack of skilled labour and low adherence to technological requirements.

Kanwal Sibal, former Indian Foreign Secretary and Ambassador to Russia (2004-2007), acknowledges that this problem does exist.

“India has failed to develop an indigenous defence manufacturing industry even though its defence requirements are huge,” Sibal told RIR. “We are at times the largest importer of arms in the world. This is absurd for a country that is faced with major security challenges. The Russian connection has given us advanced arms but not the capacity to build them on our own.”


Make jointly ::

In this respect, India is lagging behind China which has been successfully localizing and modernizing acquired technologies. If Russia decides to seriously opt for joint development and production of military equipment and accept more interdependence, it would be a game-changer for India.

Makienko thinks this is a natural step in the evolution of defence cooperation between the countries, which started in 1962. “Now we should move toward joint projects and joint development of new technologies and we should, in fact, talk about the promotion of the ‘Make jointly in India and Russia’ brand,” he says.

While Sibal echoes his view, he also warns that learning to work within the current Make in India programme might be hard for Russian firms. “This will be a challenge for Russian companies as the model so far has been to deal with public sector units in India through government to government agreements,” he told RIR.

Overcoming these obstacles would bring the sides closer to more interdependence and make joint ventures such as the FGFA more large-scale.

“The FGFA programme was conceived to give India access to critical design capability. If that happens to the degree expected, it would be a major breakthrough for the future,” Sibal says.
http://www.defencenews.in/article/Russia-cannot-give-India-sophisticated-Stealth-Technology-251027

@sayareakd @Indx TechStyle @Kunal Biswas @all
 

scatterStorm

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IMO, if they aren't providing us the t.o.t even sharing 50% of initial cost than this is just pure monopoly of the russian military machine. I think we should take advantage of there derailing economy and give them a taste of there own medicine, pull out from the deal, and by off the shelve at discounted pricing, this would surely send some message that they can shove there monopoly up there arse. Since russians won't want the deal to be ended as this drought of ruble will hinder there production lines and roll out will not meet deadlines implying inflation of ruble, which would imply, for every SU50 they going to roll out, they will cry like a bitch. Currently a ruble is 1.14 INR, since there aviation industry shares 2% of there GDP, and stealth projects take up a few chunk of the that 2% they will at least think before they speak!

Further, I am bewildered by the fact that our goi didn't took spares as some critical component, if they would thought about that, then we would've been manufacturing spare of Su30MKI on our own and surely a vantage position for any future deal with the russians, at least we would've been in better position to negotiate on the table.

I think we should drop the deal, by purchasing only 4 squadrons worth of there paper tiger plane, get our boys to fly them and clock some sorties to gain more experience in flying cutting edge jet's. Once they do it, send some elite pilots to ADA and HAL and ask there opinion to generate critical data that would be helpful to create our AMCA. Then invest like a ravish importer would ... oh well! we already are one, but this time to our AMCA.

Our scientist have the capability to build AMCA now, the critical avionics can be purchased from foreign vendors just like we did with our Tejas. US can provide us the engines the F414-E variant with extra thrust aswell. Meanwhile raise our cyber command and intelligence force to pound the Chinese gov. websites to gain critical insights of there jet's and taking everything with a pinch of salt while analyzing there stealth capabilities as they can plant wrong info too.

At least we could than say that yes our stealth jet is manufactured in India with few of our own indigenous content.
 

FactsPlease

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Plane excuses to push a scam ahead, Russian lobby.:dude:
What's next to the accusation of Russian Lobby? Just mark those who support FGFA as nation traitor and execute them. Why wait?

Those who are opposing Indigenous development of equipment and technology, I request them to give their best to Fastrack the process except blubbering mouth.
He never said he oppose indigenous development. He just said India can't wait FGFA to counter J-20 - I will leave so-called JF-31 as it's truly out of a serious discussion.

All it about, including previous those who oppose LCA, is the risk assessment toward India geographic strategy, the great game one. Just at another thread, some can't-wait guys are screaming for an inevitable war with China at 2018~20: http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...itary-cooperation-with-pakistan-report.78717/

So china desperately showing signs of wanting war with India hence provocations. Its now or never for china for war plans as we expected critical conflict could be between 2018-2020. Beyond which china cannot handle India's advancement in tech and economy.
I am seeing 2020 timeline for a 2nd Indo-china war.. may be it could short term low intensity.. but it is surely on the cards.. becuz every scenario for a war between the two are slowly getting check-listed..
Back to 1985, when India acquired Mig-29, China inducted its first, truly ingeniously developed fighter, the J-8. Just Google it and you can see the huge difference between the two - J-8 is like from stone-age. Not to mention Soviet back then got many more-advanced strike forces such as bombers. Same thing happens to India's destroyer Rajput (1981) against 051 class destroyer of China (continuous commissioning till 1991. Simple, China has NO choice. It even could not afford type 42 from UK). Today, comparison between these two can be a laugh stock - its a difference of generations. Ever seen the chart that China 051 intercepting a 10-times-huge Kirov class?
https://kknews.cc/military/qela2b.html


(Pardon me for the Chinese description. Point is the timing of that photo: 1985)

History class over. Why China dared to risk its safety back then? Why China accepted those inferior equipment like Indx TechStyle rightly indicated? The answer is simple. Sort out your strategy and priority. When necessary, accept or even tolerate short-term humbleness, so you will get things even in the long run. If you can't wait for a war, please, don't think patriotism can be the invincible armor for those soldiers. I speak this out as an orphan lost his father in war.
 
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Indx TechStyle

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What's next to the accusation of Russian Lobby? Just mark those who support FGFA as nation traitor and execute them. Why wait?
Better cancel or freeze the deal, being done!;)
Why China dared to risk its safety back then? Why China accepted those inferior equipment like Indx TechStyle rightly indicated? The answer is simple. Sort out your strategy and priority. When necessary, accept or even tolerate short-term humbleness, so you will get things even in the long run. If you can't wait for a war, please, don't think patriotism can be the invincible armor for those soldiers. I speak this out as an orphan lost his father in war.
Exactly, you are ready to wait for FGFA being delayed and more expensive every year but no to AMCA just because it's threatened to be delayed.

As told before, this war threat has been overhyped too much to push imported maal down the throat and putting full stops India's own projects.

Enough tolerated, and a loot like FGFA when you are not being given the technology even after funding, enough.to say what we're going to get.

If so scared of war, directly buy out PAK FA and run AMCA parallely, even then I.would understand budget shortcoming because of deal.

But FGFA? Please..

You are funding to develop others' weapon for nothing in return.
 

TPFscopes

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What's next to the accusation of Russian Lobby? Just mark those who support FGFA as nation traitor and execute them. Why wait?
AMCA is on its way. You will see a complete 5th generation fighter by tech and Capability.
RAFALE has the RCS of 0.0006m² after recent spectra Upgrade which will be enough for J-20.

As you know that present Tejas is far better than PROPOSED Tejas of 1990's similarly AMCA will share its best.

I will share the complete detail about J-20 will clear your doubts about j-20
 

Anikastha

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AMCA is on its way. You will see a complete 5th generation fighter by tech and Capability.
RAFALE has the RCS of 0.0006m² after recent spectra Upgrade which will be enough for J-20.

As you know that present Tejas is far better than PROPOSED Tejas of 1990's similarly AMCA will share its best.

I will share the complete detail about J-20 will clear your doubts about j-20
Tag me too.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00LD using Tapatalk
 

Bahamut

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su35

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Better cancel or freeze the deal, being done!;)

Exactly, you are ready to wait for FGFA being delayed and more expensive every year but no to AMCA just because it's threatened to be delayed.

As told before, this war threat has been overhyped too much to push imported maal down the throat and putting full stops India's own projects.

Enough tolerated, and a loot like FGFA when you are not being given the technology even after funding, enough.to say what we're going to get.

If so scared of war, directly buy out PAK FA and run AMCA parallely, even then I.would understand budget shortcoming because of deal.

But FGFA? Please..

You are funding to develop others' weapon for nothing in return.
I do understand you thought but i do believe India is still lacking in some key areas to build 5th generation jets which already discussed here. I can confirm that seeing the current state of HAL and IAF interest that even we are given full TOT we will not be able to produce FGFA before 2030 (including trials) Best thing i suggest is to license produce PAK FA with tailoring India's need. It would even be better if we get those new missile package with the jet.
It will take minimum 10 years now ,if all goes well

Rafale frontal RCS is close to 01-1m2 depending on the weapons load

Spectra is ECM kit , it does not change the RCS
Those who are opposing Indigenous development of equipment and technology, I request them to give their best to Fastrack the process except blubbering mouth.
I have just one question Does IAF has necessary infrastructure to operate these jets. I would rather bet on infrastructure rather that on FGFA or AMCA. Remember and single AMCA crash will be fatal for project due our import loving Air force.
I think I do not need or cannot maintain more than 60 5th generation plane
 

TPFscopes

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Chengdu J-20, THE dark horse in the race for 5th generation combat aircraft
1/13/2017 0 COMMENTS


A comprehensive study into the J-20 as it develops as an operational 5th Generation fighter.

a competitive and ambitious program

ile it has often been dismissed as an inferior platform to any other 5th Generation program in existence, the shroud of secrecy and the heavy criticism which quickly stereotype the aircraft as "impotent" in the evolving battle space give the J-20 its biggest advantage in the development process as it manages to keep a lower profile in the general public eye.

There are a set of preconceptions about the aircraft and its performance, but here's what we know now:

1. The J-20 is slightly shorter than a Flanker unlike what was speculated about the size when the aircraft first flew in 2011.
2. The weapons bay of the J-20 is quite shallow; it can probably carry small diameter bombs but definitely not any standoff munitions. This puts to the rest that the J-20 is an overhyped ground attack platform.

3. The current engines are variants of the AL-31F. These engines give the Flanker, a larger aircraft, sufficient thrust but the J-20 might be heavier than the Flanker (speculation) so it can be expected to have lower thrust-to-weight ratio.
4. An F-119-class engine called WS-15 is confirmed to be in development. This new engine is almost definitely going to be mounted on the J-20 when its development concludes.

5.The J-20 has entered service with the PLAAF with the first examples sporting grey low-visibility roundels as well as the RAM treated splinter camouflage .

6.The J-20 is integrated with next-gen A2A ordnance like the PL-10 SRAAM and PL-15 MRAAM.

Size analysis of the J-20 in comparison with the J-15
engines- the heart of the aircraft



.The "go to" statement to discredit the aircraft is often its powerplant, and while the initial shortcoming has been addressed by using Russian engines for the Flankers, the AL-31FN series engines, the WS-15 engines being developed are expected to give it a favorable operating thrust envelope.

There are 4 major stages in China with respect to developing and certifying a new engine.
The first phase is the test/experimental stage prior to the initial flight. This involves all of the ground based testing on the parts of engine and as a whole. It goes through a series of test on the test vehicle and its parts to make sure that it's ready to go through flight testing.
The second phase is the research test flight stage. Before going into the process of certification test flights, the test vehicle is flown under realistic flight scenarios and flight envelope. The main tasks include preliminary assessment of engine flight performance, features, reliability, maintainability, testability and supportability. Flight tests could be carried out in a flight engine test bed or on an intended aircraft. At the conclusion of test flights, the technological maturity level should reach level 7. In WS-15 testing, it had to complete 60 hours of endurance testing on flight testbed before completing this phase. So at this point, the engine is demonstrated to have at least 60 hours of service life prior to overhauling.
The third phase is the design certification stage. Before low rate initial production, it must go through a series of ground testing of the engine, its systems and the individual parts. It must also go through with high altitude testing and flight certification. Most importantly, it has to go through the initial overhaul long endurance testing on testbed. For WS-10 and WS-10B, they had to complete a 300 hour endurance testing to complete this stage. Under testing of full flight envelope, these tests will determine the reliability, maintainability, testability, safety and service life. At its conclusion, the technological maturity level should reach level 8.
The fourth phase is the production certification stage. Before mass production of an engine, it must be deployed in smaller number of aircraft (with active service aircraft) for test usage in order to become mature. It must go through with full service life endurance testing on test bed. It must complete comprehensive verification of engine performance and reliability under mass production quality. Mass produced version of WS-10 must complete 1000 hour of endurance before completing this stage, the initial overhaul time is at least 1000 hours. At its conclusion, the technological maturity level should reach level 9.
This gives a decent idea about the quality measures of taken for the developing the powerplant and the WS-15 engines are quickly approaching maturity as the engineers take design inputs from existing engines and the AL-41 engines from the Su-35S aircraft delivered last year.

Even if there are stop gap variants of the AL-41 produced and utilized on the J-20 aircraft, it can be comparable to the newer J-11B and follow on variants of the Chinese produced Flankers.
Primary sensor suite



Type 1475 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) radar

Chinese AESA radars. The top one is for the J-10B fighter and has about 1200 transmit/receiver (T/R) modules, the middle one is for the J-16 strike fighter and has 1760 T/R Modules. The bottom one destined for the J-20 5th generation stealth fighter, and has 1856 T/R modules (generally, the more T/R modules on an AESA radar, the more powerful and flexible it is).

The radar is said to have LPI and with 1856 T/R modules, the radar can have an estimated power output of 18 Kilowatts with low power modules which would be slightly less than the Irbis-E. As per recent developments mentioned, the AESA module is expected to have 2000 T/R modules which is not far fetched as the estimated plate diameter and radar aperture size is similar to that of the F-22 Raptor which houses the AN/APG-77(v1) AESA.

We are yet to judge the efficiency of the radar as details about the modules, cooling channel and side lobe cancellation aren't publicized or have a convincing comparison against existing modules being used by other AESA radars.
EOTS-89 electro-optical targeting system (EOTS)and EODAS

Wang Yanyong, technical director for Beijing A-Star Science and Technology, confirms that two systems – the EOTS-89 electro-optical targeting system (EOTS) and the EORD-31 infrared search and track (IRST) – are in development for China’s J-20 and J-31 fighters.

Marketing brochures on A-Star’s booth suggest that the J-20 could use the passive sensors to detect and aim missiles against other VLO aircraft without using its Radar to actively detect and targets. A long range concentrated monopulse can be used to cue the EOTS and DAS which if comparable to the F-35 Lightning II's EOTS and EODAS will be used for 360-degree, spherical situational awareness system. The DAS sends high resolution real-time imagery to the pilot’s helmet from six infrared cameras mounted around the aircraft, allowing pilots to see the environment around them – day or night – without loss of quality or clarity. With the ability to detect and track approaching aircraft from any angle, the DAS also greatly reduces the potential for mid-air collisions and virtually eliminates surprises.

However, there is no photographic evidence of the EOTS and EODAS installed as the space reservations can be noticed on the aircraft without the sensors on the operational aircraft with the PLAAF.




EODAS Space Reservations
Low obsevrability

The S-duct intakes and DSI reduce frontal RCS of the aircraft. The engine cowling is shielded all the way to the nozzle with saw tooth panels which again reduce RCS. The "close coupled" canards deflections can be mitigated by the FBW and FCS to have signature reduction. the control surfaces and vortex stabilizers are planform and at high deflection angles.



Front hemisphere designs appear to be in accordance with standard radar laws, with parallel lines, and minimum rough or flat edges. The J-20 uses angled chines along the sides of the aircraft (like the F-22), and a hidden engine intake design both to help lower side-section and front aspect RCS (Radar Cross Section).

Aside from the canards however, the J-20 design retains a stealthy frontal rcs. The design of the engine inlets, chined nose, flat lower fuselage, sawtooth design incorporation on internal bays, and extensive use of planform alignment should reduce the airframe's frontal radar signature considerably.

There is however some discrepancy as to whether the aircraft's RCS estimates can classify as a VLO platform ( -30 dBSM or lower) or LO platform ( -20 dBSM or .01m^2)

The use of RAM further reduces the RCS however its limited by the reflective non-planform surfaces and edges.
not a Strike Aircraft


Everything from the delta-canard planform arrangement, LERX, WS-15 development, and shallow weapons bay strongly indicate that the J-20 was designed to be an aerodynamically unstable, and manoeuvrable air superiority fighter with limited consideration for its strike capabilities.

The aerodynamic instability was highlighted when the J-20 carried four external fuel tanks on pylons from which the position of Center of Lift and Center of Weight could be related to each other and equated against aerodynamic models.

Had the J-20 been designed primarily for strike missions, it would have dispensed with the canards and gone for a configuration similar to the FB-22, featuring low drag and low pitch-authority. In addition, its weapons bays would have been much deeper to host dedicated strike munitions like the LS-500J. The WS-15 project would also have been unnecessary if the J-20 were a strike aircraft as the thrust-to-weight ratio of the J-20 in its current configuration is already much higher than what is needed for strike aircraft.

All in all, the J-20 can be expected to be a competitive and effective platform as time reveals the aircraft's capabilities and characteristic flight enveloped are opened.


It will take minimum 10 years now ,if all goes well

Rafale frontal RCS is close to 01-1m2 depending on the weapons load

Spectra is ECM kit , it does not change the RCS
The DEDIRA program will further improve the active stealth aspect of SPECTRA to bring down the frontal RCS of Rafale close to 0.0006m2. For reference, the unofficial frontal RCS of Raptor is 0.0001m2 without active cancellation, which is a Very Low observable (VLO) aircraft. DEDIRA is already integrated on a test Rafale numbered B301.
 

TPFscopes

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I do understand you thought but i do believe India is still lacking in some key areas to build 5th generation jets which already discussed here. I can confirm that seeing the current state of HAL and IAF interest that even we are given full TOT we will not be able to produce FGFA before 2030 (including trials) Best thing i suggest is to license produce PAK FA with tailoring India's need. It would even be better if we get those new missile package with the jet.


I have just one question Does IAF has necessary infrastructure to operate these jets. I would rather bet on infrastructure rather that on FGFA or AMCA. Remember and single AMCA crash will be fatal for project due our import loving Air force.
I think I do not need or cannot maintain more than 60 5th generation plane
Maintenance hub will be Upgraded to maintain 100+ STEALTH FIGHTERS similarly as we are able to maintain 230+ Su-30MKI's
 

lcafanboy

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Russia announces deepest defence budget cuts since 1990s
Craig Caffrey, London - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
16 March 2017


Figures released by the Russian Federal Treasury have confirmed that Russia's defence budget has been cut by 25.5% for 2017, falling from RUB3.8 trillion (USD65.4 billion) to RUB2.8 trillion.

The reduction represents the largest cut to military expenditure in the country since the early 1990s.

The reduction follows an extended period of large increases to Russian defence spending with growth having achieved an average rate of 19.8% a year since 2011 in nominal terms. Despite the cut, the 2017 budget will remain about 14.4% higher than the level of defence spending seen in 2014 in nominal terms.

The Russian government initially outlined plans to reduce defence expenditure in the draft of the three year budget for 2017 to 2019 released in October 2016.

http://www.janes.com/article/68766/russia-announces-deepest-defence-budget-cuts-since-1990s

HUGE 25% cut in defence expenditure by Russia.

Now the question is would Russia be able to complete PAKFA on time or not and could we get FGFA on time or not?
And can Russia let go Indian funds and participation in it PakFa & FGFA development?
 

Indx TechStyle

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I do understand you thought but i do believe India is still lacking in some key areas to build 5th generation jets which already discussed here.
Then, isn't that better to develop them at home or directly buying them out from market? Why funding the project when you aren't going to be involved in development? Russians have already clarified us.

Indian components may take time, 5,10,15 or 20 years but late is at least better than never.
@Bahamut @AbRaj Now, don't give me argument of war threat because FGFA isn't anywhere near realization either.

Buy PAK FA or F-35 directly if you are really so scared.
I can confirm that seeing the current state of HAL and IAF interest that even we are given full TOT we will not be able to produce FGFA before 2030 (including trials)
Even if FGFA comes in 2030 will be a big achievement!:lol:
Russians will be saying even in 2030 that they are developing an orbital fighter and keep asking for money.
Sooner this insane project closes, it's better for India.
Best thing i suggest is to license produce PAK FA with tailoring India's need.
I doubt that they will let us license produce their primary stealth jet.

US has F-22 for heavy & F-35 for medium, China will have J-20 for heavy and J-31 for medium,
Russians will have PAK FA for heavy and LMFS for medium
India was supposed to get FGFA for heavy (getting delayed deliberately) and AMCA for medium.

As the FGFA project is on verge of cancellation, India must buy out or start working on a third stealth fighter.
 

AbRaj

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@Ku
Then, isn't that better to develop them at home or directly buying them out from market? Why funding the project when you aren't going to be involved in development? Russians have already clarified us.

Indian components may take time, 5,10,15 or 20 years but late is at least better than never.
@Bahamut @AbRaj Now, don't give me argument of war threat because FGFA isn't anywhere near realization either.

Buy PAK FA or F-35 directly if you are really so scared.

Even if FGFA comes in 2030 will be a big achievement!:lol:
Russians will be saying even in 2030 that they are developing an orbital fighter and keep asking for money.
Sooner this insane project closes, it's better for India.

I doubt that they will let us license produce their primary stealth jet.

US has F-22 for heavy & F-35 for medium, China will have J-20 for heavy and J-31 for medium,
Russians will have PAK FA for heavy and LMFS for medium
India was supposed to get FGFA for heavy (getting delayed deliberately) and AMCA for medium.

As the FGFA project is on verge of cancellation, India must buy out or start working on a third stealth fighter.
I'm amused by your knowledge about future and doubt you as some kind of "I know it all because I know it all".
Your entire argument is based on two entirely false assumptions-
1. That Russians have denied xyz % of tech transfer
2. India is in same league with Russia on military technology.

I will advice you to read PKS blog named trishul Trident for some reality check about Indo-Russian cooperation and current status of our future/super duper AMCA or whatever it will be in next 10-20 years.

Meanwhile you should burn your smartphone, laptop, TV etc and wait for our indigenous smartphone, laptops and TV to mature and become available to you.

Don't take it offensive dude. But I'm done here.
 

Indx TechStyle

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'm amused by your knowledge about future and doubt you as some kind of "I know it all because I know it all".
And I'm irritated by this way of backing from own statements.

Defending the undefendable.
1. That Russians have denied xyz % of tech transfer
Not false, it's out in media and even you've agreed that nobody provides ToT and mindlessly still were defending it for a reason you probably yourself don't know.

I can find that page you out.
2. India is in same league with Russia on military technology.
When I even said so? We aren't in their league. So, buy out weapons.
whatever it will be in next 10-20 years.
FGFA is going to have similar 10-20 years timeline if goes on, will go worse than AMCA.

Russia is going to have great economic problems in inducting fighters for their air force, they'll look for money here, FGFA is pushed all after that.

Anyway, provide me direct link of what you do wanna say (that Trishul Link, do it and prove me.half wrong at least).
Meanwhile you should burn your smartphone, laptop, TV etc and wait for our indigenous smartphone, laptops and TV to mature and become available to you.
I guess you are again taking it wrong senses.

Will I start funding foreign smartphone companies in hope of getting tech and when they have plainly denied that they won't?

I will buy their final products instead.
Don't take it offensive dude. But I'm done here.
Seriously, which logic is here,
Convo (me in red, you're in blue).
  • We are involved in FGFA JV for gaininig ToT.
  • Russia won't provide us, no country gives away it's IPR easily.
  • They have even openly denied.
  • Experience for AMCA? We are not even involved in any kind of development. Indian pilots haven't even flied PAK FA once. Our scientists don't even know what's happening there. We are just giving inputs and requirements. Isn't that enough certificate for this genuine corporation?
  • What's point of being involved in this project? Why not fund own one?
  • Paks & Chinks are standing on our heads with guns.
  • Even FGFA isn't anywhere near realization, leave alone induction. So, scared of war? By components of AMCA or directly PAK FA from Russia.
  • No, FGFA will give us experience.
  • Which experience? Not even watching what's the status. The development from Indian side includes negotiation table for prize and timeline only. Working with them is distant, have you ever seen an Indian scientist or pilot with them? You also said that they won't give us ToT. No point in paying such huge amount then.
I will repeat hundreds of times, it's a scam.
 
Last edited:

su35

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And I'm irritated by this way of backing from own statements.

Defending the undefendable.

Not false, it's out in media and even you've agreed that nobody provides ToT and mindlessly still were defending it for a reason you probably yourself don't know.

I can find that page you out.

When I even said so? We aren't in their league. So, buy out weapons.

FGFA is going to have similar 10-20 years timeline if goes on, will go worse than AMCA.

Russia is going to have great economic problems in inducting fighters for their air force, they'll look for money here, FGFA is pushed all after that.

Anyway, provide me direct link of what you do wanna say (that Trishul Link, do it and prove me.half wrong at least).

I guess you are again taking it wrong senses.

Will I start funding foreign smartphone companies in hope of getting tech and when they have plainly denied that they won't?

I will buy their final products instead.

Seriously, which logic is here,
Convo (me in red, you're in blue).
  • We are involved in FGFA JV for gaininig ToT.
  • Russia won't provide us, no country gives away it's IPR easily.
  • They have even openly denied.
  • Experience for AMCA? We are not even involved in any kind of development. Indian pilots haven't even flied PAK FA once. Our scientists don't even know what's happening there. We are just giving inputs and requirements. Isn't that enough certificate for this genuine corporation?
  • What's point of being involved in this project? Why not fund own one?
  • Paks & Chinks are standing on our heads with guns.
  • Even FGFA isn't anywhere near realization, leave alone induction. So, scared of war? By components of AMCA or directly PAK FA from Russia.
  • No, FGFA will give us experience.
  • Which experience? Not even watching what's the status. The development from Indian side includes negotiation table for prize and timeline only. Working with them is distant, have you ever seen an Indian scientist or pilot with them? You also said that they won't give us ToT. No point in paying such huge amount then.
I will repeat hundreds of times, it's a scam.
Even though I cannot confirm but in the inital days also HAL workshare of developing PAK FA or FGFA was limited to only 10 to 20 percent. According Russian offer FGFA was MKI version of PAK FA with Isreal and French technology and GOI had accepted the deal. So thinking to develop FGFA is a foolishness we are just going to license produce it and slowly install our own software. Even su 30 was not so capable fighter like MKI is. I think major issue is not allowing IAF pilot to fly the aircraft rather on TOT
 

Bahamut

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Why funding the project when you aren't going to be involved in development? Russians have already clarified us.
The disagreement is on the level of ToT, do we get ToT for engine where we have not invested, we will get ToT for avionics where we did invest. So wait, for more ToT we have spend a lot more, it is upto the government to decide how much we need.
Now, don't give me argument of war threat because FGFA isn't anywhere near realization either
IAF need new planes, by 2030 most of IAF planes would have retired and we need production of new aircraft by 2020 to avoid a sudden drop in plane numbers
Even if FGFA comes in 2030 will be a big achievement!:lol:
Russians will be saying even in 2030 that they are developing an orbital fighter and keep asking for money.
Sooner this insane p
We will have it 2020, there are only a few changes by 2030 FGFA will almost be complete
 

FactsPlease

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Better cancel or freeze the deal, being done!;)
OT: I'm trying to be sarcastic. Perhaps not the proper way but I do HATE people label others instead focusing on valid arguments. On the other hand, I saw you have been labeled, too. :devil:
OT-2: The frustration of many people toward India R&D or manufacturing capability is, to me, understandable. I mean all those schedules (promises) you listed for AMCA actually had been heard (again, again, and again) in previous notorious cases. I'm NOT saying anyone is lying, just history had NOT provided creditability in this front.

Back to my point: if India is determined to develop indigenous weaponry and MIC, you should ask yourself: either ,

"Are we ready for several years low-profile attitude? So, boys, stop crying for war with China all days [at least by the time AMCA + MIC is successful!!]",

or

"We should have confidence on 1) our nuclear deterrence (which to me is very valid and CREDIBLE enough, as China is NOT that stupid and crazy as most childish hot-heads thought) and 2) our diplomacy skills in geographic games (so far either Congress or BJP playing well). So stop fearmongering war with China"

I seem to be OT too much. My last post in this thread. Mod please remove it if concerned.
 

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