Sukhoi PAK FA

[pmaitra]

Post on topic. I have moved some posts to Chit Chat Thread, but I cannot do it again and again.

Keep your language clean, or expect posts to be deleted.

 

[gadeshi]

You probably should compare MKI costs to MKA or MKM ones to be honest and objective.

And do it in the MKI topic, I guess...

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[pmaitra]

@Yumdoot, I have already asked him to post a source. As @gadeshi correctly said, we should discuss Sukhoi-30MKI in the appropriate thread. Let us focus on FGFA here.

Corrigendum:

Not only CAG, many people have no clue what they are talking about.

Rs. 440 cr - Rs. 227 cr = Rs. 213 cr. What is it for? Does man-hour alone justify this? Or is this extra cost due to man-hours and components?

We are comparing Sukhoi-30MKI with Sukhoi-30. The former has front canards, but the latter does not. The former has Indian, French and Israeli components. The latter does not. The former has economy of scale. The latter does not. The former lacks economy of scale. The latter does not. But hey, let's pretend these difference contribute to zero cost escalation and blame HAL for the entire cost escalation.

I have no reference to anything, not even to the original numbers that @Mad Indian offered, that we are assuming to be true. Let @Mad Indian present what exact planes he is comparing, and the sources of his cost, and when the costs were evaluated; then we can talk. Till then, everything is "probably."

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Guys, I moved most of the posts on HAL inefficiency to other thread by same title. Please continue there.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

RUSSIA READIES PRECISION GUIDED BOMB FOR PAK-FA STEALTH FIGHTER

http://www.defenseworld.net/news/14..._Bomb_For_PAK_FA_Stealth_Fighter#.VhgBiJSff10

In what is seen as Russia’s answer to the US Small Diameter Bomb, the country’s air force is testing the KAB-250 precision-guided bomb on board the Sukhoi Su-34 fighter.
The Small Diameter Bomb is meant for the US F-22 and F-35 stealth fighters and the KAB-250 is designed to fit on the external and internal mounts of the PAK-FA or T-50 stealth fighter under development by Russia.
The KAB-250 precision-guided bomb will soon complete trials, according to the weapon's manufacturer, Moscow-based Region Scientific & Production Enterprise JSC. "The bomb’s trials on the Sukhoi Su-34 will completed late this year," the company’s director general, Igor Krylov, quoted in the Russian media reporting from the Russian Defense Ministry Innovation Day earlier this week.
The KAB-250 follows the larger KAB-500, which is being used by the Russian military in its airstrikes in Syria.
The KAB-250 will be part of the weapons suite of the PAK FA fifth-generation fighter next year. It can be mounted externally or stored in the jet’s internal weapons bays.
The KAB-250 has a fragmentation warhead and can be dropped individually or in salvoes. The aircraft carrying the KAB-250LG-Es must be fitted with a laser illumination system.

 

[gadeshi]

Yeah, but this is not the most interesting one

Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

 

[lookieloo]

RUSSIA READIES PRECISION GUIDED BOMB FOR PAK-FA STEALTH FIGHTER
In what is seen as Russia’s answer to the US Small Diameter Bomb...

This is the actual KAB-250 model from your article.

And these are the two models of SDB supposedly being answered.

Color me unimpressed with Russia's grasp of the concept.

 

[gadeshi]

This is the actual KAB-250 model from your article.

And these are the two models of SDB supposedly being answered.

Color me unimpressed with Russia's grasp of the concept.

Russians love to resolve their problems in a pretty radical way
That's why VKS will not interested in small rods, only 500kg, only hardcore
Google Kh-36/36P unified munition.

 

[gadeshi]

A beatiful view on lower surface of Kh-59M2 - embedded air intake and terrain-following equipment are clearly visible:

 

[lookieloo]

Russians love to resolve their problems in a pretty radical way
That's why VKS will not interested in small rods, only 500kg, only hardcore
Google Kh-36/36P unified munition.

In other words... still not grasping the SDB concept.


Guess I shouldn't complain though.

 

[Jagdish58]

After Rafale, Parrikar not Convinced on FGFA

Defence minister Manohar Parrikar seems to be unconvinced on the whole developmental funds asked by Russia to develop a Customised Pak-FA dubbed as FGFA by India Said Senior Air force Source close to idrw.org.

IAF pretty much have given up on developing a customised variant of Pak-fa like it did with Su-30MKI and pretty much has told MOD and DM that it is ready to pick up Production variant of Pak-Fa in its current avatar as procured by Russian Air force .

Sources also believe that major announcement likely will be made by the end of this year on which way Russian 5th generation fighter programme by India will be accepted after much deliberation with all concerned Authorities or final call will be taken by PMO like in case was done by PM on Rafale deal with France on this visit to Paris earlier this year .

IAF recently has asked Russia to allow them have a proper technical evaluation of Pak-Fa fighter jets by Indian Air force Test Pilots since it will be more of a Government to Government deal and no longer will be joint development . IAF already is planning to bring down the order of PAk-Fa further down if Russia doesn’t buggies from its current position.

http://idrw.org/after-rafale-parrikar-not-convinced-on-fgfa/

 

[Yumdoot]

FGFA was a good concept but nobody, not even Russians will be willing to collaborate on real hardcore intellectual property.

People just have to learn that good things don't grow on trees. You have to tend to the sapling and then if you are lucky, you get the fruits sometime in future.

Parrikar should drive a hard bargain on PAKFA/FGFA. If we do not get to work on this thing and advance our own spin off projects then its a money down the tube.

In any case if you are willing to blow up money, then blow it up on Indian projects - Tedha Hai Par Mera Hai.

 

[A chauhan]

FGFA was a good concept but nobody, not even Russians will be willing to collaborate on real hardcore intellectual property.

People just have to learn that good things don't grow on trees. You have to tend to the sapling and then if you are lucky, you get the fruits sometime in future.

Parrikar should drive a hard bargain on PAKFA/FGFA. If we do not get to work on this thing and advance our own spin off projects then its a money down the tube.

In any case if you are willing to blow up money, then blow it up on Indian projects - Tedha Hai Par Mera Hai.

I like the FGFA concept except it's two-seater plan, which will increase the RCS of a stealthy jet ::

 

[Yumdoot]

I like the FGFA concept except it's two-seater plan, which will increase the RCS of a stealthy jet ::

When the IAF asked for the 2 seater, at that time Russians were in the very initial stages of PAKFA development. Listening, day in and day out, the claims and declarations of the western fanboys at other places, I actually doubted if Russians would be able to take the software-heavy route to the development of PAKFA. If you notice the capability set of PAKFA to the JSF is quite different. And it remained to be seen what exactly will Russians would put in as an extra. Today I have better confidence in Russian capability to be able to fuse up the data stream, having already seen India and China progress on like matters in other domains.

Earlier I thought its best to have 2 guys there sharing all that data streaming in - one guy using it to fly and position properly and in a survivable manner while the other guy would use the same data stream to target and focus on the attack and generally making the best of the opportunities. At that time I saw FGFA as a true multi-role fighter.

However with the quantum jump in sensors that PAKFA is aiming for, I am thinking of it as more of a sensor cum relay node in the aerial battlefield with the added benefit of bringing to bear a lot of AAMs at any given point in the fight.

Since then I had started learning a thing or two about stealth and I am rather convinced that stealth is going to be a heavily and convincingly challenged aspect of wartime flying. IOW, the heavy lumbering defenceless AWACS will have to go back for their own good - their LPI well-pi-eye won't matter. And planes like PAKFA can and will be forced to work like smaller less visible AWACS. If you remember the Su-30MKI too had this capability with a limited set of 4 other aircrafts. With PAKFA, my guess is vectoring in 20-25 would be an easy thing to do, even if the data fusion is not upto the western standards. Now if the main capability is to be able to vector in other planes while itself remaining survivable, then my guess is that the strike-cum-air superiority role, automatically becomes a much lesser lucrative secondary role.

Unfortunately for India, as a country that may not be very comforting because chances are even the PLAAF recognizes this uniqueness of a PAKFA sized plane. Hence probably the J-20. Like say 1 or 2 J-20s with like sensor capability vectoring in several J-31s. We have to bear in mind that the Chinese are the ones who originally sported this 'quantity as a quality' capability in these parts of the world. We can already see that even with a better engine, a J-20 hardly makes sense as a strike-bomber that it is touted to be. And the J-20, which is kinematically going to be much less capable than the PAKFA/FGFA, gives me additional comfort that PAKFA can be made to work as a force multiplier. Even while we the fanboys are merely seeing the FGFA/PAKFA as a lesser multi-role capability.

Now if the future is going to be like what I suspect, then FGFA begins to lose its charm and PAKFA does not look so limited either.

However my guess also is that IAF would rather want the JSF since its American and IAF has a thing for the western hi-technology. Probably the IAF leadership is waiting for the day when they think they can convince the GoI to dump the FGFA/PAKFA and take up the JSF.

 

[A chauhan]

@Yumdoot It is said that PAKFA T-50 will be having some sort of artificial intelligence which will assist the pilot in his functions, if so then it also negates the need of a customized tandem config FGFA since it can lower the workload of the pilot !?

 

[Yumdoot]

@A chauhan
This Artificial-wartificial Intelligence is just a selling tactic. Applies to all players across the world. Intelligence is only natural, at least if it is the same thing as samajh . Essentially it all boils down to a lot of rigorously tested, predictable, error free, clash free, if-then-else statements.

And that is open to even us Indians working on low budget LCAs, working with just 6% of the defence budget.

But yes the computing prowess has grown massively and is not very expensive. And you can expect PAKFA to sport lots and lots of it. Even the Su-30MKI which is a 4.5 gen plane has a lot of computing power built into it. IAF pilots have to do a lot of book and manual reading to absorb things about Su-30MKI. A PAKFA will only take things to the next level.

Better computing capabilities do make the life a lot more simplified for the operators and ground support. But then nothing can provide against metal chips in oils and lubricants .

 

[gadeshi]

@A chauhan
This Artificial-wartificial Intelligence is just a selling tactic. Applies to all players across the world. Intelligence is only natural, at least if it is the same thing as samajh . Essentially it all boils down to a lot of rigorously tested, predictable, error free, clash free, if-then-else statements.

And that is open to even us Indians working on low budget LCAs, working with just 6% of the defence budget.

But yes the computing prowess has grown massively and is not very expensive. And you can expect PAKFA to sport lots and lots of it. Even the Su-30MKI which is a 4.5 gen plane has a lot of computing power built into it. IAF pilots have to do a lot of book and manual reading to absorb things about Su-30MKI. A PAKFA will only take things to the next level.

Better computing capabilities do make the life a lot more simplified for the operators and ground support. But then nothing can provide against metal chips in oils and lubricants .

Not exactly
PAK FA is capable of automatic missile detection, trajectory prediction and is able to make anti-missile maneuver completely automatically as well. This is possible by mastering and using artifical neuronic nets in the decision making process...

 

[gadeshi]

KnAAZ insider guys have reported that T-50-5R has made its first flight after repair.
Waiting for photos and videos

 

[Yun Ming]

Not sure if it's true but....

According to KeyPublishing guys:

Long-term plan for the T-50 to 2020 :
2016 - T-50-9, T-50-10, T-50-11.
2017 - T-50-12 (static), T-50S-1,2.
2018 - T-50S-3,4
2019 - T-50S-5,6,7,8, PMI 1,2.
2020 - T-50S-9,10,11,12, PMI 3,4.

Which in turn was taken from a Russian forum where an insider posted these infos.
http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/4618-t-50-a-6/


PMI = FGFA

If true then

12 PAK FAs for Russia by 2020
4 FGFA for India by 2020

 

[A chauhan]

Not sure if it's true but....

According to KeyPublishing guys:

Long-term plan for the T-50 to 2020 :
2016 - T-50-9, T-50-10, T-50-11.
2017 - T-50-12 (static), T-50S-1,2.
2018 - T-50S-3,4
2019 - T-50S-5,6,7,8, PMI 1,2.
2020 - T-50S-9,10,11,12, PMI 3,4.

Which in turn was taken from a Russian forum where an insider posted these infos.
http://forums.airforce.ru/matchast/4618-t-50-a-6/


PMI = FGFA

If true then

12 PAK FAs for Russia by 2020
4 FGFA for India by 2020

PAKFAs are alright but FGFAs ? have IAF even defined its requirements ?