Sukhoi PAK FA

[gadeshi]

Yeah, it's true both.

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[halloweene]

Not exactly
PAK FA is capable of automatic missile detection, trajectory prediction and is able to make anti-missile maneuver completely automatically as well. This is possible by mastering and using artifical neuronic nets in the decision making process...

Not only Pak-FA, far from it, and not a new concept.

 

[gadeshi]

Not only Pak-FA, far from it, and not a new concept.

So far the others can only detect threats and switch on ECM/launch CHAFF/flares, not automaticallybavoid it.

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[gadeshi]

So, as I've promised, a photo of T-50-5R after repair flight:

 

[halloweene]

So far the others can only detect threats and switch on ECM/launch CHAFF/flares, not automaticallybavoid it.

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True. Systems analyse threats and PROPOSE solutions to the pilot. Different philosophy....

 

[gadeshi]

PAKFAs are alright but FGFAs ? have IAF even defined its requirements ?

Yes. The preliminary reqs were stated in sketch project contract of 2013.

Receiving its LRIPs from 2019 makes possible for IAF to test WYSYWYG fighter and make a final reqs with maximum precision.

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[A chauhan]

Yes. The preliminary reqs were stated in sketch project contract of 2013.

Receiving its LRIPs from 2019 makes possible for IAF to test WYSYWYG fighter and make a final reqs with maximum precision.

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Seems only PAKFA T-50 is running on time , rest have just delayed here

 

[Mad Indian]

http://idrw.org/after-rafale-parrikar-not-convinced-on-fgfa/

 

[Mad Indian]

So parrikar is Antony 2.0. Yes, let's cancel the deal which has a great potential to turn into a Brahmos type JV. And lets pin our hopes on AMCA, when amca is being designed as an attack aircraft primarily instead of being an aor superiority aircraft. Makes so much sense .

Hey, jingo morons, come and defend this shit too

 

[Mad Indian]

@Sakal Gharelu Ustad see what happens when pseudo nationalists make decisions with head up their ass?

 

[Mad Indian]

However my guess also is that IAF would rather want the JSF since its American and IAF has a thing for the western hi-technology. Probably the IAF leadership is waiting for the day when they think they can convince the GoI to dump the FGFA/PAKFA and take up the JSF.

That's what happens when someone become a pseudo nationalist with head up his ass - he loses his ability to think straight.

Seriously, which moron told you IAF is against PAKFA and for F35? Its not your ass is it? Because last I checked, IAF actually wants to induct Pakfa and was flat out against F35. It is actually IN which is interested in F35. And it was IAF which was forefront of demanding higher R and D share for FGFA. But I guess its much easier to blame IAF than use your brain and write about how IAF is against Pakfa and is only for western stuff.

You people are so intellectual dishonest that you can't even make up your mind. IAF is only for western weapons when it buys Rafale, instead of your plans to buy Su 30MKI, and IAF is only for RUSSIAN weapons even if it wants Pakfa instead of F 35. so iaf is both for and against Russian weapons? Has the thought occurred to you that IAF may be just wants what is best for itself?


And what about brahmos ? Was that a failure too? Was that not a state of the arc technology? Was that not a joint venture? Why did the Russians joins us with a JV if they were unwilling to part with it? Don't think too hard, it might burst your pseudo nationalistic bubble


And surprise , when parrikar thinks about scraping a much more profitable/better JV wrt FGFA, you are here defending it?

 

[Mad Indian]

This is not a defence forum anymore where proper defence is discussed from what is best for armed forces. this is a fanboy site where everyone masturbates to indigenous junk even if that junk will not match our adversaries in any way. Even if that junk is sure to get us defeat.

China is producing j31 and j20 and here these morons don't want something more advanced than junk to counter them?

 

[prasadr14]

This is not a defence forum anymore where proper defence is discussed from what is best for armed forces. this is a fanboy site where everyone masturbates to indigenous junk even if that junk will not match our adversaries in any way. Even if that junk is sure to get us defeat.

China is producing j31 and j20 and here these morons don't want something more advanced than junk to counter them?

Again you are getting two separate issues mixed up.

You are knowledgeable enough to understand Tejas in current configuration are not a counter to j20. We have other fighters for that purpose.

And to your second point of us not developing anything other than 'junk', if not given a chance to develop, after 50 years, we would still be debating the same point.

Govt and IAF are on two pronged strategy. In short term Tejas are replacements to Mig21 and there are acquisitions happening to counter J20 and co.
In long term, the current junk 'Tajas' life cycle would lead to better and more advanced air craft.

if you are accusing some one as fan boy, by all rights, people can accuse you of being sold out to foreign corporates to promote their military wares - which I know is not the truth.

 

[uoftotaku]

First of all I don't think anyone should take IDRW articles seriously. They are not worth calling journalism. Even some of the bile spewed here by fanboys is better written and has more factual information than the tripe IDRW puts out regularly.

Secondly I don't see why MP should be pulled up for criticizing the FGFA deal, in main because the FGFA as a concept ( A customized version of the PAK-FA designed and built for and in India ) is already long dead. Everyone involved in the process on the Indian side is well aware of the realities and has been rightly pushing for access, inspections and design input for the last 2-3 years but have been successively stonewalled by the Russians who have unilaterally pursued their own objectives while being bankrolled by our funds.

Now they still want our money, but still don't want to do anything to fulfill their end of the contract. India's money was supposed to develop a common framework and architecture from which the PAK-FA and FGFA would then diverge as branches on the same tree ( much in the same way the Russian SU-35S and Indian SU-30MKI differ but share commonality )

The Russians have not done this. They have taken our money, probably bribed our appointed overseeing babu's with booze and blondes and gone ahead with a fully develop PAK-FA, with ZERO work done on FGFA. Heck they even have the cheek to say in public that India would have to fork over MORE money for the FGFA as "too many" modifications would be required to the already flying PAK-FA. Keep in mind that India has so far not only had zero design input but not even been allowed access to the PAK-FA beyond a couple of flying displays put on for visiting delegations ( during one of which the prototype caught fire ).

Despite HAL's many failings ( and I am no fan of them ) they have one thing correct...there is no Joint-Development as far as the PAK-FA is concerned. How can something be joint development if its already flying before the other side even sees it? The FGFA is a dream now. Our sunk cost in the program is at this point negligible in the big scheme of things.

If I was MP I would also be making calculations and asking hard questions. On what basis would I be able to justify allocating billions of dollars to a program that had no domestic benefits to industry beyond the usual nonsense of License Assembly? And given recent Russian dealings...what is to stop Putin & Co from selling the PAK-FA to China? Imagine that...a weapon system financed by India being used against us.

So go ahead Mr Parrikar. Throw the curtain off this sorry charade and move on.

 

[pmaitra]

First of all I don't think anyone should take IDRW articles seriously. They are not worth calling journalism. Even some of the bile spewed here by fanboys is better written and has more factual information than the tripe IDRW puts out regularly.

I agree. I have never given too much importance to that portal.

Secondly I don't see why MP should be pulled up for criticizing the FGFA deal, in main because the FGFA as a concept ( A customized version of the PAK-FA designed and built for and in India ) is already long dead. Everyone involved in the process on the Indian side is well aware of the realities and has been rightly pushing for access, inspections and design input for the last 2-3 years but have been successively stonewalled by the Russians who have unilaterally pursued their own objectives while being bankrolled by our funds.

Now they still want our money, but still don't want to do anything to fulfill their end of the contract. India's money was supposed to develop a common framework and architecture from which the PAK-FA and FGFA would then diverge as branches on the same tree ( much in the same way the Russian SU-35S and Indian SU-30MKI differ but share commonality )

The Russians have not done this. They have taken our money, probably bribed our appointed overseeing babu's with booze and blondes and gone ahead with a fully develop PAK-FA, with ZERO work done on FGFA. Heck they even have the cheek to say in public that India would have to fork over MORE money for the FGFA as "too many" modifications would be required to the already flying PAK-FA. Keep in mind that India has so far not only had zero design input but not even been allowed access to the PAK-FA beyond a couple of flying displays put on for visiting delegations ( during one of which the prototype caught fire ).

Despite HAL's many failings ( and I am no fan of them ) they have one thing correct...there is no Joint-Development as far as the PAK-FA is concerned. How can something be joint development if its already flying before the other side even sees it? The FGFA is a dream now. Our sunk cost in the program is at this point negligible in the big scheme of things.

If I was MP I would also be making calculations and asking hard questions. On what basis would I be able to justify allocating billions of dollars to a program that had no domestic benefits to industry beyond the usual nonsense of License Assembly? And given recent Russian dealings...what is to stop Putin & Co from selling the PAK-FA to China? Imagine that...a weapon system financed by India being used against us.

So go ahead Mr Parrikar. Throw the curtain off this sorry charade and move on.

The biggest attraction of PAK-FA/FGFA was stealth. I suppose the hype of stealth has died down now. Stealth is good to have, but if we have to build our own capabilities, we have to build it at home. We are not dealing with the USSR. We are dealing with the Russian Federation. I suppose folks in Delhi are yet to come to terms with this important fact.

Hopefully this will convince the IAF to be a bit more tolerant of homegrown technologies. If they want to criticize HAL/ADA/DRDO, fine, but they should be able to back up their criticism with something of their own, that will be as good as what they are criticizing.

 

[gadeshi]

First of all I don't think anyone should take IDRW articles seriously. They are not worth calling journalism. Even some of the bile spewed here by fanboys is better written and has more factual information than the tripe IDRW puts out regularly.

Secondly I don't see why MP should be pulled up for criticizing the FGFA deal, in main because the FGFA as a concept ( A customized version of the PAK-FA designed and built for and in India ) is already long dead. Everyone involved in the process on the Indian side is well aware of the realities and has been rightly pushing for access, inspections and design input for the last 2-3 years but have been successively stonewalled by the Russians who have unilaterally pursued their own objectives while being bankrolled by our funds.

Now they still want our money, but still don't want to do anything to fulfill their end of the contract. India's money was supposed to develop a common framework and architecture from which the PAK-FA and FGFA would then diverge as branches on the same tree ( much in the same way the Russian SU-35S and Indian SU-30MKI differ but share commonality )

The Russians have not done this. They have taken our money, probably bribed our appointed overseeing babu's with booze and blondes and gone ahead with a fully develop PAK-FA, with ZERO work done on FGFA. Heck they even have the cheek to say in public that India would have to fork over MORE money for the FGFA as "too many" modifications would be required to the already flying PAK-FA. Keep in mind that India has so far not only had zero design input but not even been allowed access to the PAK-FA beyond a couple of flying displays put on for visiting delegations ( during one of which the prototype caught fire ).

Despite HAL's many failings ( and I am no fan of them ) they have one thing correct...there is no Joint-Development as far as the PAK-FA is concerned. How can something be joint development if its already flying before the other side even sees it? The FGFA is a dream now. Our sunk cost in the program is at this point negligible in the big scheme of things.

If I was MP I would also be making calculations and asking hard questions. On what basis would I be able to justify allocating billions of dollars to a program that had no domestic benefits to industry beyond the usual nonsense of License Assembly? And given recent Russian dealings...what is to stop Putin & Co from selling the PAK-FA to China? Imagine that...a weapon system financed by India being used against us.

So go ahead Mr Parrikar. Throw the curtain off this sorry charade and move on.

Your claims have little sense because of the following:
1 - India has not participated or financed PAK FA project at all. PAK FA has started in 2004, its concept, design and funding are 100% Russian from that day till now.
2 - Russia has proposed to India a JV on it in 2002, but it was rejected.
3 - No offence, guys, but Indian engineers have no enough qualification, skills and experience for such a project. You have not finished 20 times more simple light Tejas fighter to usable status. You cannot give anything new or useful to the project.
4 - As was stated in previous, Indian engineers should learn a lot first to take reliable responsibilities second. So, the preliminary contracts include mainly TOT and learning, accompanied with concept modelling and calculations jobs. This is hell of a job to model and mathematically prove the Indian vision on FGFA before invest time and money into it.
5 - India has joined the project in 2010 after the first flight. E.G., in the moment when all the concepts and design were ready. And lndians were the first and only foreigners, who have seen PAKFA from within (Even Russian public is not allowed to know what's inside the weapons bays and engine intakes). What is it if not the partnership and great trust?
6 - Consider the first contracts as paid education before the real jobs. There would be LOTS of tasks not only for FGFA itself, but for T-50 platform as a whole.

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[Mad Indian]

Again you are getting two separate issues mixed up.

You are knowledgeable enough to understand Tejas in current configuration are not a counter to j20. We have other fighters for that purpose.

Name the fighter in the IAF which can counter J20.

And to your second point of us not developing anything other than 'junk', if not given a chance to develop, after 50 years, we would still be debating the same point.

Again, what is the indigenous plans to counter J20.

And you do realise that technology can't be reached in one high jump? It needs a big learning curve. FGFA deal will help India get these technologies which would otherwise be unavailable to us. And seriously, did we junk Brahmos to promote indigenous research? Just asking. I am stunned by how stupid this forum has fallen to to even defend this crap by Parrikar. Parrikar is just being Antony 2.0.

Govt and IAF are on two pronged strategy. In short term Tejas are replacements to Mig21 and there are acquisitions happening to counter J20 and co.

Like what? Lots of prayers that Plaaf won't use J 20?

if you are accusing some one as fan boy, by all rights, people can accuse you of being sold out to foreign corporates to promote their military wares - which I know is not the truth

Only problem being, I am advocating the exact opposite. If we don't fund fgfa , we will be reduced just importing Pakfa variants instead of being production partners. This is why the term fanboys is very apt for the morons defending this crap by the parrikar. They are fanboys of anything and any news against foreign collaboration or may be they are just fanboys of bjp and suck its ass even if its decision is completely retarded just like how they are cheering solar energy push by BJP morons, even if solar energy is costly as hell. I am not sure which but one of this must be true..atleast these morons had a justification to oppose Rafale even if it was stupid. Here they have no justification at all to cheer this news.

 

[Sakal Gharelu Ustad]

Name the fighter in the IAF which can counter J20.


Again, what is the indigenous plans to counter J20.

And you do realise that technology can't be reached in one high jump? It needs a big learning curve. FGFA deal will help India get these technologies which would otherwise be unavailable to us. And seriously, did we junk Brahmos to promote indigenous research? Just asking. I am stunned by how stupid this forum has fallen to to even defend this crap by Parrikar. Parrikar is just being Antony 2.0.


Like what? Lots of prayers that Plaaf won't use J 20?


Only problem being, I am advocating the exact opposite. If we don't fund fgfa , we will be reduced just importing Pakfa variants instead of being production partners. This is why the term fanboys is very apt for the morons defending this crap by the parrikar. They are fanboys of anything and any news against foreign collaboration or may be they are just fanboys of bjp and suck its ass even if its decision is completely retarded just like how they are cheering solar energy push by BJP morons, even if solar energy is costly as hell. I am not sure which but one of this must be true..atleast these morons had a justification to oppose Rafale even if it was stupid. Here they have no justification at all to cheer this news.

I would not jump too much into the news yet. But people should read @gadeshi post above to understand the nuances of aircraft building. Leap frogging is possible in certain sectors like telecom but aircraft making is not one of them.

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[Mad Indian]

Your claims have little sense because of the following:
1 - India has not participated or financed PAK FA project at all. PAK FA has started in 2004, its concept, design and funding are 100% Russian from that day till now.
2 - Russia has proposed to India a JV on it in 2002, but it was rejected.
3 - No offence, guys, but Indian engineers have no enough qualification, skills and experience for such a project. You have not finished 20 times more simple light Tejas fighter to usable status. You cannot give anything new or useful to the project.
4 - As was stated in previous, Indian engineers should learn a lot first to take reliable responsibilities second. So, the preliminary contracts include mainly TOT and learning, accompanied with concept modelling and calculations jobs. This is hell of a job to model and mathematically prove the Indian vision on FGFA before invest time and money into it.
5 - India has joined the project in 2010 after the first flight. E.G., in the moment when all the concepts and design were ready. And lndians were the first and only foreigners, who have seen PAKFA from within (Even Russian public is not allowed to know what's inside the weapons bays and engine intakes). What is it if not the partnership and great trust?
6 - Consider the first contracts as paid education before the real jobs. There would be LOTS of tasks not only for FGFA itself, but for T-50 platform as a whole.

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Also, fgfa is for both India and Russia. It is not just an MKIsed Pakfa like many fanboy/ignoramus think here. It will be a separate aircraft. The current plan of IAF is to induct Pak fa first, and then develop FGFA with Russia and induct FGFA later. I think fgfa is akin to Su30 , if Pakfa is like Su27. What Russia has offerent is JV for Su 30 (fgfa) production and research and what these morons are thinking is that we should not finance this and that we don't need it because we are doing research with Russia because indigenous junk is awesome, because they think that what Russia has offered is just for modifying Su27 to Su27 mki. That's why I called this forum being fanboy site. Because none of this info is available/discussed here.

They don't even use their brains anymore. Seriously, the fgfa development alone is expected to cost 5.5bn$ from India and further 5.5bn$ from Russia. Why would it take 11bn$ to just MKIse the PAKFA? Do they think iaf is that stupid?

 

[gadeshi]

Also, fgfa is for both India and Russia. It is not just an MKIsed Pakfa like many fanboy/ignoramus think here. It will be a separate aircraft. The current plan of IAF is to induct Pak fa first, and then develop FGFA with Russia and induct FGFA later. I think fgfa is akin to Su30 , if Pakfa is like Su27. What Russia has offerent is JV for Su 30 (fgfa) production and research and what these morons are thinking is that we should not finance this and that we don't need it because we are doing research with Russia because indigenous junk is awesome, because they think that what Russia has offered is just for modifying Su27 to Su27 mki. That's why I called this forum being fanboy site. Because none of this info is available/discussed here.

They don't even use their brains anymore. Seriously, the fgfa development alone is expected to cost 5.5bn$ from India and further 5.5bn$ from Russia. Why would it take 11bn$ to just MKIse the PAKFA? Do they think iaf is that stupid?

TRUE.
Not FGFA or PAK FA should be seen here but T-50 as a common universal platform to develop different versions on it. Just like T-10 (Su-27) is now, T-50 will be in the future.
Indians have made extremely wise decision jumping into the last wagon in 2010.

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