Sukhoi PAK FA

[Screambowl]

That's what happens when someone become a pseudo nationalist with head up his ass - he loses his ability to think straight.

Seriously, which moron told you IAF is against PAKFA and for F35? Its not your ass is it? Because last I checked, IAF actually wants to induct Pakfa and was flat out against F35. It is actually IN which is interested in F35. And it was IAF which was forefront of demanding higher R and D share for FGFA. But I guess its much easier to blame IAF than use your brain and write about how IAF is against Pakfa and is only for western stuff.

You people are so intellectual dishonest that you can't even make up your mind. IAF is only for western weapons when it buys Rafale, instead of your plans to buy Su 30MKI, and IAF is only for RUSSIAN weapons even if it wants Pakfa instead of F 35. so iaf is both for and against Russian weapons? Has the thought occurred to you that IAF may be just wants what is best for itself?

Simply because F35 comes with 1001 conditions and no ToT! Russians don't create trouble apart from delays.

 

[roma]

. If we don't fund fgfa , we will be reduced just importing Pakfa variants instead of being production partners.

good point .... highlighted for others to consider too

Seriously, the fgfa development alone is expected to cost 5.5bn$ from India and further 5.5bn$ from Russia. Why would it take 11bn$ to just MKIse the PAKFA? Do they think iaf is that stupid?

5.5 Billion is not too much espeially consiering the amount saved from the reduced deal off the rafaels ....will it be held to 5,5 or will it go substantially up ?
can we offset any increases with value of learning on the job ?

3 - No offence, guys, but Indian engineers have no enough qualification, skills and experience for such a project. You have not finished 20 times more simple light Tejas fighter to usable status. You cannot give anything new or useful to the project.
Отправлено с моего XT1080 через Tapatalk

perhaps not in the area of engine and structurally
but what about in avionics and software expertise ? given that almost everything is computer controlled surely the indian engineers have in fact a lot to offer ? eg they could take the avoinics up a generation or two, working TOGETHER with russian engineers ?

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@Nicky G@FRYCRY@Aravind Sanjeev@A chauhan

 

[Mad Indian]

5.5 Billion is not too much espeially consiering the amount saved from the cyt deal off the rafaels ....will it be held to 5,5 or will it go substantially up ?
can we offset any increases with value of learning on the job ?

Forget offset, just the chance to work on it and then co produce it is an awesome opportunity to learn. And just like Brahmos , we can export fgfa too to countries which are friendly to both India and Russia like say Iran , Malaysia etc. If we invest 5bn$ here for research, we then stand to reap several billions back by exporting the aircraft. If parrikar is serious about junking this deal, then he is being penny wise and pound foolish.

 

[gadeshi]

I agree. I have never given too much importance to that portal.


The biggest attraction of PAK-FA/FGFA was stealth. I suppose the hype of stealth has died down now. Stealth is good to have, but if we have to build our own capabilities, we have to build it at home. We are not dealing with the USSR. We are dealing with the Russian Federation. I suppose folks in Delhi are yet to come to terms with this important fact.

Hopefully this will convince the IAF to be a bit more tolerant of homegrown technologies. If they want to criticize HAL/ADA/DRDO, fine, but they should be able to back up their criticism with something of their own, that will be as good as what they are criticizing.

Not only stealth, but real supersonic and supercruise capabilities, outstanding flight qualities package, intellectual avionics and super-advanced sensors (better than American and much better than Israeli).
And mos of all - cost reducing common T-50 platform to build modifications on it much easily than from scratch. Like T-10 (Su-27) is now.

 

[gadeshi]

perhaps not in the area of engine and structurally
but what about in avionics and software expertise ? given that almost everything is computer controlled surely the indian engineers have in fact a lot to offer ? eg they could take the avoinics up a generation or two, working TOGETHER with russian engineers ?

Not in avionics as well...

Look, military equipment at all and 5 gen aionics in particular is not the same as commercial/consumer one.
It uses different architecture, materials, development and productiuon approaches and even some different physical principals (look at tera-GHz SUHF signal processing units for example).
Indian engineering doesn't know anything of that and should learn it as well as engine and airframe technologies.

Indian software devs are ...
Well, we will not describe a quality of mass-producted Indian commercial developers, but in military purposes software development skills is not the main part. Software engineer should be a great mathematician to build appropriate fucking complex ALGORYTHMS, not programs, which are secondary, and the same physician to deeply understand the subject he models in the algorythms. A lot of learning will be here as well.

India has good composits, but they are not appropriate for such a high loaded and high speed airframe, as pure Carbon/Carbon parts and units cannot withstand maneuver loads on supersonic speeds when leading edges heat by drag to 150-300 deg Celcious and have a long lifetime after that.
Russians have spent a 1.5 decades to invent and technologize mixed Carbon/Aramide technology. Aramides themselves give the parts structural and temperature flexibility that pure carbon cannot reach. But usual aramides (like Kevlar) have short lifetime (about 10 years with direct sunlight influation), dissolate on direct sunlight and have different thermal expansion coefficien which makes them impossible to be in one part with Carbon ones (they simply will tear the part a pieces when putted into autoclave for polymerization).
But Russians have invented Para and Meta Aramides that have 40 years and almost no sunlight impact.
Their TEC is almost the same as for Carbon fiber, so there is a mixed strings composite tissue is now possible.
Also they have developed A LOT ceapper way to autoclave them using composite matrices instead of fucking expensive Invar made US ones.

So, there are LOTS of technologies should be TOTted.

 

[gadeshi]

Forget offset, just the chance to work on it and then co produce it is an awesome opportunity to learn. And just like Brahmos , we can export fgfa too to countries which are friendly to both India and Russia like say Iran , Malaysia etc. If we invest 5bn$ here for research, we then stand to reap several billions back by exporting the aircraft. If parrikar is serious about junking this deal, then he is being penny wise and pound foolish.

And don't forget about the most of technologies twin purpose and possible civillian commercial usage...
It will boost Indian science and production drastically.

 

[A chauhan]

Also, fgfa is for both India and Russia. It is not just an MKIsed Pakfa like many fanboy/ignoramus think here. It will be a separate aircraft. The current plan of IAF is to induct Pak fa first, and then develop FGFA with Russia and induct FGFA later.

Then take the article you posted by Ranesh Rajan as a fake one, he himself is just guessing.

 

[prasadr14]

Forget offset, just the chance to work on it and then co produce it is an awesome opportunity to learn. And just like Brahmos , we can export fgfa too to countries which are friendly to both India and Russia like say Iran , Malaysia etc. If we invest 5bn$ here for research, we then stand to reap several billions back by exporting the aircraft. If parrikar is serious about junking this deal, then he is being penny wise and pound foolish.

You do know India is reluctant to work on this with Russia because they are not doing what you just said would be 'awesome opportunity'.

Fact is Russians are not involving us at all and this is the red flag raised by India.
As of now Russians just want the Indian moolah and nothing else for this project.

 

[pmaitra]

Not only stealth, but real supersonic and supercruise capabilities, outstanding flight qualities package, intellectual avionics and super-advanced sensors (better than American and much better than Israeli).
And mos of all - cost reducing common T-50 platform to build modifications on it much easily than from scratch. Like T-10 (Su-27) is now.

Stealth, in my opinion, has been oversold. I agree with the rest of the points you made.

 

[A chauhan]

PAK-FA T-50 has already completed design phase, then what kind of JV FGFA is ? Avionics assimilation ? making it two-seater ? IMO these are just modifications and not a joint development venture.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

I agree. I have never given too much importance to that portal.


The biggest attraction of PAK-FA/FGFA was stealth. I suppose the hype of stealth has died down now. Stealth is good to have, but if we have to build our own capabilities, we have to build it at home. We are not dealing with the USSR. We are dealing with the Russian Federation. I suppose folks in Delhi are yet to come to terms with this important fact.

Hopefully this will convince the IAF to be a bit more tolerant of homegrown technologies. If they want to criticize HAL/ADA/DRDO, fine, but they should be able to back up their criticism with something of their own, that will be as good as what they are criticizing.

the attractiveness of PAKFA is - not only stlath but that it does not compromise on aerodynamics while maximising stealth without compromising aerodynamic performance

 

[pmaitra]

PAK-FA T-50 has already completed design phase, then what kind of JV FGFA is ? Avionics assimilation ? making it two-seater ? IMO these are just modifications and not a joint development venture.

Two seater is not going to happen. Prima facie, this is going to be just another Sukhoi-30MKI type deal.

 

[pmaitra]

the attractiveness of PAKFA is - not only stlath but that it does not compromise on aerodynamics while maximising stealth without compromising aerodynamic performance

I agree. I remember one article in Russia Insider where one said that fighter jets always look good. The reason is, the designers always try to reduce drag and increase aerodynamic performance. Stealth on the other hand requires sharp edges and flat surfaces, to limit the number of directions radar waves can be reflected. So, stealth and aerodynamics work against each other.

 

[PaliwalWarrior]

Forget offset, just the chance to work on it and then co produce it is an awesome opportunity to learn. And just like Brahmos , we can export fgfa too to countries which are friendly to both India and Russia like say Iran , Malaysia etc. If we invest 5bn$ here for research, we then stand to reap several billions back by exporting the aircraft. If parrikar is serious about junking this deal, then he is being penny wise and pound foolish.

name a country where we have exported brahmos

pl tell the figure / Nos of brahmos russia bought from us

 

[A chauhan]

Two seater is not going to happen. Prima facie, this is going to be just another Sukhoi-30MKI type deal.

PAKFA T-50 in its current form is also a deadly jet, though better is always better. If FGFA is not going to be a two-seater then it's useless to buy PAKFA T-50 in its RAF version, rather we should buy FGFA since it'll have better avionics in minimal time (I mean FGFA won't be taking much time).

 

[brational]

PAKFA T-50 in its current form is also a deadly jet, though better is always better. If FGFA is not going to be a two-seater then it's useless to buy PAKFA T-50 in its RAF version, rather we should buy FGFA since it'll have better avionics in minimal time (I mean FGFA won't be taking much time).

I think a 5G fighter makes the 2nd Pilot seat obsolete. A single pilot is enough to perform all desired task.

 

[gadeshi]

PAK-FA T-50 has already completed design phase, then what kind of JV FGFA is ? Avionics assimilation ? making it two-seater ? IMO these are just modifications and not a joint development venture.

Common Platform (T-50) development and derivatives creation.

 

[gadeshi]

name a country where we have exported brahmos
pl tell the figure / Nos of brahmos russia bought from us

Russia has Onyx from which Brahmos has grown.
But Onyx has greater abilities, as it is not restricted missile technologies control treaties. Russia don't need BrahMos for its army or navy.
BrahMos is the way to avoid those treaties and make India capable of create and legally buy non-restricted cruise missiles in the future as a country who now has its own missiles tech.
And don't forget BrahMos-II

 

[gadeshi]

PAKFA T-50 in its current form is also a deadly jet, though better is always better. If FGFA is not going to be a two-seater then it's useless to buy PAKFA T-50 in its RAF version, rather we should buy FGFA since it'll have better avionics in minimal time (I mean FGFA won't be taking much time).

Look, guys...
If you have just not see it, the world has changed this last 2 years.
There are no personal interests in military deals.
Russia builds a new world with assistance of China, India and all the BRICS and SOC countries.
So the military deals WILL INCLUDE TOT to make an allies armies and economies stronger to win this world building war.

And a piece of beauty here - T-50-1 (01-1) after improvement session:

 

[Chinmoy]

Guys, lets not mix up PAK-FA, FGFA and AMCA. All of these are different platforms with different goal mindset. May be FGFA could be based on PAK-FA, but technically speaking its more of an Indian venture then a JV like PAK-FA. As far as AMCA is concerned, it would be the augmentation of LCA.

Investing in PAK-FA would be the learning curve for FGFA. But whatever differences is there in between India and Russia on ti project is not because of cost involvement or ToT. Its because of the division of workshare. India is not getting much to work on PAk-FA and it does undermine the cost sharing.