Sukhoi PAK FA

[Armand2REP]

Obviously it was beginning, spell check left begging.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Drsomnath999]

enjoy this pics

 

[Vladimir79]

I ignore a lot of things even IAF chiefs say. US chiefs are worse.

So you're calling Malaysia and Russian Air Force Chief's liars? You are so pro-Russian it is worse than fanboy.

 

[p2prada]

So you're calling Malaysia and Russian Air Force Chief's liars? You are so pro-Russian it is worse than fanboy.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them liars, but I would say they are making political statements. I don't know if this has been done in Russia before the breakdown, but I can say it is something new for the Russians today with a slightly free media there.

Criticizing the defence industry is a norm for democracies during peace time. Backtracking on these statements is a norm during wartime. It is a well known fact. It is after the war that actual news spills out, until then the stuff we have is first class. India has done it, US has done it and now it seems like Malaysia and Russia are doing it. Our Army chief made grandoise statements during the 1971 war when the American carrier was entering the Bay of Bengal, quite like the Iranians today. Our IAF chief, only last year, questioned China's development strategy as ethical or not along with calling the J-20 a copy of Russian designs(which was lame btw)? The Americans were talking about major victories before sh!t hit the fan in Afghanistan.

It is nice to know there is criticism, but criticism of what?
MKI has it's own share of problems, like the lack of a LWS or MAWS. Lack of an internal EW suite. Some of it has been overcome in the MKM, with South African options while there is a reason to criticize it in India because of a lack of one.

Now we can say one Russian chief has said the T-90 cannot be compared to the European options. Another says the EW equipment is obsolete, one says Russian UAV designers are incompetent. All these are political statements laced with half truths and agenda.

But the T-90 is not meant to counter a Leo A7, the Object 195 was and it failed. Russians UAVs, well they svck, nothing to say here. Heck India makes better ones. As for EW equipment, what was the basis for saying it? If he is talking about airborne pods, then they have export capable stuff from Knirti. If he is talking about ground based jammers et al, then there are some good ones, except that the operational units use cold war relics. If he is talking about modern internal suites, then Russia does not have one. Let's just say Russia is a decade behind the Spectra or Virgilius.

Then again, he was talking about Russian EW performance in the Gerogian war. Now comparing Russian army to the current Russian defence industry is foolhardy. Unfortunately it's like comparing apples and oranges. Come on, just admit it, you are bitter about how things went on in Georgia. The Russian army had bad equipment or in some cases no equipment at all. The Russian air force is currently not capable of making big buys, nor have they made one since a long time. IAF has a budget that is of a similar size as the VVS, but why are things so bad? IAF can purchase 272 Flankers followed by 126-200 western equivalents without issues along with running one FGFA program and mooting a second FGFA program in India while VVS is struggling to order 1/5th that size of Su-35s with little or no western avionics, which eat up the limited budget. You can say there are programs in Russia which are basically running on Indian money and once complete, India will end up selling them to Russia, like the K-100 and Brahmos. Considering your military industrial complex is capable of fulfilling orders for our needs, then there is no reason why it cannot fulfill Russian needs.

While the MKI has an excellent name in the defence world, there is nothing in the VVS that can match it. The MKI has no internal suite, but has the Virgilius as an option. Does VVS have the same option, maybe. Will VVS exercise that option, mostly no. So, does the Russian chief have a reason to criticize the Mil-Ind complex, yes. Does IAF chief need to if an MKI come with a Virgilius fitted, no? There is still a massive difference in how your army is being run vis a vis ours even with the same budget.

We know that the AL-31 is actually a bad engine as compared to the P&W equivalents when it comes to maintenance and life. What's being advertised as 4000 hours in air shows could end up being 3000 hours in reality, or even 2000 hours in Indian conditions. We service the MKI after every 200 hours, so you can say the overhaul period of the engine can be 200 hours instead of the advertised 500-1000 hours. There are things that we can criticize, but then the system works. However if you compare VVS operational units to ours, our birds get a lot of flying hours, supposedly above 300 hours as compared to barely a 100 in Russia. So, we have setup maintenance depots and centers which allow us to do that along with a large order for spares and parts from Russia, Indian vendors and other foreign vendors. While we ordered 50+140 MKIs initially, we signed a contract for a 1000 AL-31FPs, so engines are always available whenever one fails.

Also you haven't read my posts in DFI about criticism of the MKI. I guess there was one such incident in 2010, I got into an argument with a DFI mod about possible problems in MKIs. I said there would be design or structural problems in the MKI which the Russians would never tell us and that we have to find out all of this on our own. I also said that we will find them out by the time we make our own 100% MKIs. Two years later, I was right. There were design issues on the first 32 Russian supplied MKIs, which crept into HAL made ones too, and Russia even accepted the issues. There were repeated failures of engines on the MKIs and according to media reports this happened not once, but 3 or 4 times. So, IAF is looking for a fix for this problem too. The media report came a few weeks after the first indigenous MKI flew.

As for the Mig-35, Armand pointed out that the equipment on it is obsolete. I pointed out that it could be worse, because in one incident the canopy came off during evaluations in India and that obsolete equipment could only be fed to the media.

You can call me a Russian fanboy, but personally I only like the stuff we inducted, not all the stuff you have. That's because we follow procedures while inducting that is a little more open than what is in Russia. Also, the stuff we induct always finds buyers elsewhere, in FMS type buys as well as tenders. Quite like how a Rafale win in India can open up other markets for Dassault. Other countries, especially the small ones watch our imports to make their own decisions. Look at the Swiss U Turn by their minster. Coming to the crux of the matter, the anti-Russian members here believe Russian gear falls apart the moment you touch it. So, you are going to have to focus on the positives of the Russian industry to counter all the hate.

Don't compare the way things are run in Russia with India or the west. You are trying to maintain an Army the size of India without a budget the size of China's. That's not happening. The Georgian war was not so good for morale in Russia, but then things will change sooner or later.

The Malaysians have a tender for MRCA and the MKM is playing in it. If the Malaysians choose the MKM over the Rafale or other aircraft, what would your opinion be of Sukhoi after that?

 

[p2prada]

@Vladimir

One more example for such political nonsense.

http://defenceforumindia.com/indian-air-force/31995-rafale-strategic-blunder.html

If you follow the news in the article, this is what our Def Pros have to say here.

Could not trawl through the article.

What is our strategic equation with Germany, UK and others?

Are we not buying enough from the US?

Must we sell ourselves wholesale to the US?

Must we buy things which do not suit us but we should buy lest we upset people?

Why don't we mortgage our defence in that case to the NATO?

And become another Pakistan and have the same baggage that Pakistan shoulders?

A motivated article to scuttle the deal!

Many retired military officers work for foreign arms company as Liaison Officers.

Have you not seen the good Col Shukla change his tune?

He, too, is an honourable man!

I wish the article could give concrete evidence as to which one would have suited India in all its ramification, instead of generalities.

That would have been more authentic.

Poor article by an officer who has not done proper research. He has equated the Rafale with the JF-17...I'm rather speechless.



His views are quite daft when he states that .... .

I stopped reading after that point, as it does not appear the he has any understanding on the subject, inspite of being an NDC graduate, and has done his Staff College from Canada.

And finally the possible motive for the article...

He has possibly looked at the political fallout and not the issues of defence.

If he is the same person I know, I would say he delves in the realm of stratified thinking.

Just focus on the bold.

So, this is my point exactly. Not everything everybody says is true. A person with the rank of a Brigadier posted a rather low quality article for reasons apart from just educating the public. Whenever there is criticism of the military by their respective chiefs, then there is always a motive for it. They aren't like actors and actresses who make dim witted remarks the moment they are captured on camera.

That's why I said I would any day believe the personnel of lower ranks when it comes to actual situation on the ground rather than media statements aimed at jingoistic nationalism or extreme criticism.

 

[Parthy]

'Indo-Russian fighter jet better than Chinese, US aircraft'

The Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is superior to the similar Chinese and American rival fighter jets which include the J 20 Black Eagle and the F-22 Raptor, a top Russian military commander has claimed.

India and Russia are jointly developing the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA FGFA for their respective air forces and have plans of producing over 400 of these highly-advanced fighter jets.

Commander of the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin told Russian news agency RIA Novosti that his countryÂ’s government has decided to give top priority to the development of the joint venture aircraft.

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"The tests involve three fixed-wing aircraft, and three more aircraft will arrive in the near future. All in all, the tests will involve 14 aircraft," he added.

Read Complete - http://brahmand.com/news/Indo-Russian-fighter-jet-better-than-Chinese-US-aircraft/9033/1/10.html

 

[p2prada]

The Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is superior to the similar Chinese and American rival fighter jets which include the J 20 Black Eagle and the F-22 Raptor, a top Russian military commander has claimed.

Read Complete - http://brahmand.com/news/Indo-Russian-fighter-jet-better-than-Chinese-US-aircraft/9033/1/10.html

Another unverified, unsubstantiated, BS claim we can ignore.

I am not calling him a liar, it is just a politically motivated statement.

 

[ace009]

No, you would not call him a liar - it is just a case of "marketing up".

However, that does not answer the question about how or why you are SO pro-Russian. I remember the time when Ru Navy bailed on IN warships for a joint exercise, you were the only Indian on DFI still supporting Ru Navy.

I also do not understand the "fixed-wing aircraft" part. What will they use instead? A rotary wing PAK-FA? A swing-wing one? What does that even mean?

 

[p2prada]

No, you would not call him a liar - it is just a case of "marketing up".

However, that does not answer the question about how or why you are SO pro-Russian. I remember the time when Ru Navy bailed on IN warships for a joint exercise, you were the only Indian on DFI still supporting Ru Navy.

No. What I said is we must not jump the gun when we don't know any of the reasons. I don't support many Russian policies, like the invasion of Georgia or how they handled the schools hostage crisis. Kursk tops the list of Russian uselessness. At the same time I support their defiance of the Polish ABM system as it upsets the current balance.

They have pros and cons. But if everybody in the forum focuses on the cons, then some one will have show up and enlighten them. Come on, without me everybody on this forum would have unanimously believed the Russians are hopeless and only the Americans are the best. As is the case in any non Russian forum.

One of their biggest space and military related pros. The ISS is currently being supplied only by the Russians, because the US has stopped shuttle launches. There is no one else capable of handling these missions on such a regular basis. If not for them, the ISS would have failed.

I also do not understand the "fixed-wing aircraft" part. What will they use instead? A rotary wing PAK-FA? A swing-wing one? What does that even mean?

They are being very specific, that's all. They have so many types.

 

[SPIEZ]

One of their biggest space and military related pros. The ISS is currently being supplied only by the Russians, because the US has stopped shuttle launches. There is no one else capable of handling these missions on such a regular basis. If not for them, the ISS would have failed.

What is the ISS ?

 

[Apollyon]

What is the ISS ?

International Space Station .....

 

[SPIEZ]

International Space Station .....

my bad my bad, my very bad

 

[ace009]

No. What I said is we must not jump the gun when we don't know any of the reasons. I don't support many Russian policies, like the invasion of Georgia or how they handled the schools hostage crisis. Kursk tops the list of Russian uselessness. At the same time I support their defiance of the Polish ABM system as it upsets the current balance.

They have pros and cons. But if everybody in the forum focuses on the cons, then some one will have show up and enlighten them. Come on, without me everybody on this forum would have unanimously believed the Russians are hopeless and only the Americans are the best. As is the case in any non Russian forum.

One of their biggest space and military related pros. The ISS is currently being supplied only by the Russians, because the US has stopped shuttle launches. There is no one else capable of handling these missions on such a regular basis. If not for them, the ISS would have failed.



They are being very specific, that's all. They have so many types.

Hmmmm - so you mean to say that every time a forum member mentions that Russians are not professionals in many of their decisions, it is your moral duty to jump in? Again - why?
I live in the USA and even then I do not jump in most of the times to correct anti-USA slants. I only do it when I feel positively good about some US stuff AND someone puts out misinformation. And I do have a more emotional connection to USA than you can have for Russia (unless you are part Russian).
I am not arguing about Russians being good about somethings. They still make one of the best aircraft designs, their missiles are pretty good and so are their tanks/ armor.
But in electronics /computers they are falling behind severly, not to mention all weapons system related to that.
And after talking to many of my Russian colleagues and students, I do not feel much sympathy for the Russian leadership at all.

 

[p2prada]

Hmmmm - so you mean to say that every time a forum member mentions that Russians are not professionals in many of their decisions, it is your moral duty to jump in? Again - why?

It is because they are insulting the intelligence of our armed forces. Just before you joined a lot of Indian members were making blatant accusations, on army leadership, of corruption as a reason for lack of indigenous development. BS about Natasha and Vodka. Thankfully, it is gone.

I live in the USA and even then I do not jump in most of the times to correct anti-USA slants. I only do it when I feel positively good about some US stuff AND someone puts out misinformation. And I do have a more emotional connection to USA than you can have for Russia (unless you are part Russian).

A lot of negativity about Russian gear stems from the fact that there is so much wrong information out there.

I am not arguing about Russians being good about somethings. They still make one of the best aircraft designs, their missiles are pretty good and so are their tanks/ armor.
But in electronics /computers they are falling behind severly, not to mention all weapons system related to that.
And after talking to many of my Russian colleagues and students, I do not feel much sympathy for the Russian leadership at all.

They import electronics. We also import electronics from Europe and Israel. I have no sympathy for Russian leadership, it is inept. As they achieve a level of capability, they replace with their own.

The Russians believe the new FCS they developed for the T-90MS is superior to the Catherine.

Speak to Vlad about Georgia war.

 

[Armand2REP]

No, you would not call him a liar - it is just a case of "marketing up".

However, that does not answer the question about how or why you are SO pro-Russian. I remember the time when Ru Navy bailed on IN warships for a joint exercise, you were the only Indian on DFI still supporting Ru Navy.

I also do not understand the "fixed-wing aircraft" part. What will they use instead? A rotary wing PAK-FA? A swing-wing one? What does that even mean?

He slams DRDO harder than I do, and that is saying alot. Whenever Russia comes up, he is the first to defend it. Despite the criticism from Russian Generals and defence ministers he goes on and on about them being exaggerated. Why would such criticism be exaggerated? How does it help sales to badmouth your own equipment? For once the General Staff is being honest with itself and the need for modern equipment will not be subjugated by Chicom style propaganda. When its crap they will call it deficient and this is the best transparency that has ever hit the Russian Army. When grey haired engineers produce crap they cancel it and demand better. It will mean the incorporation of French equipment but at least it will be modern.

 

[p2prada]

He slams DRDO harder than I do, and that is saying alot. Whenever Russia comes up, he is the first to defend it. Despite the criticism from Russian Generals and defence ministers he goes on and on about them being exaggerated. Why would such criticism be exaggerated? How does it help sales to badmouth your own equipment? For once the General Staff is being honest with itself and the need for modern equipment will not be subjugated by Chicom style propaganda. When its crap they will call it deficient and this is the best transparency that has ever hit the Russian Army. When grey haired engineers produce crap they cancel it and demand better. It will mean the incorporation of French equipment but at least it will be modern.

Perhaps I am being paid by the Russian lobby. There could be a Rouble army.

 

[ace009]

Perhaps I am being paid by the Russian lobby. There could be a Rouble army.

No - I doubt the Russians will pay you, Rouble or otherwise (Russian "Brides"). What you have is a late late onset of cold war infection - it's like the phantom limb syndrome - you feel it even when it's not there.

Anyway, I do support the Russians for some things, as I do the French or the Americans or the Germans. I also support Indian efforts (LCA and Arjun) ... You P2P on the other hand do have a very strong case of Russian cold.

 

[p2prada]

No - I doubt the Russians will pay you, Rouble or otherwise (Russian "Brides"). What you have is a late late onset of cold war infection - it's like the phantom limb syndrome - you feel it even when it's not there.

Anyway, I do support the Russians for some things, as I do the French or the Americans or the Germans. I also support Indian efforts (LCA and Arjun) ... You P2P on the other hand do have a very strong case of Russian cold.

Now you are just resorting to nonsense.

It is nice to say you support this thing and that thing. The problem is you have barely followed anything at all. The only reason you support LCA and Arjun is because you don't know anything about them and your blind patriotism. Just stuff from the media.

I have Russian cold, but it seems so do our armed forces. Haven't you heard, what Russia cannot provide we buy from Israel. What Israel cannot provide, we buy from France. When nobody provides we turn to DRDO. That's how it goes.

The Russian stuff works. There is no guarantee the better western stuff will work for us. There is a reason why the Pakistanis decided to choose the inferior Chinese Type 85 over the M1 Abrams. It simply worked for them. It has nothing to do with moving away from the Americans as is being suggested. It failed tests in 1988, when the US was Pakistan's all weather friend.

 

[pankaj nema]

. The only reason you support LCA and Arjun is because you don't know anything about them and your blind patriotism. Just stuff from the media.

I have Russian cold, but it seems so do our armed forces. Haven't you heard, what Russia cannot provide we buy from Israel. What Israel cannot provide, we buy from France. When nobody provides we turn to DRDO. That's how it goes.

Sir you are being very very unfair to DRDO

Let us be a little more patient Arjun and LCA WILL SUCCEED