Sukhoi PAK FA

[p2prada]

Sir you are being very very unfair to DRDO

Let us be a little more patient Arjun and LCA WILL SUCCEED

Eventually they will get there. But there is no point if the LCA is successful when China is inducting the J-20. The LCA Mk2(a Mirage-2000 or F-16 equivalent) will be ready for induction the same time as the J-20 or 25 years after the first flight of the F-22. This is no longer a success.

The Arjun is a rather more successful program than the LCA. Tank technology has not changed as dramatically as aircraft in the last 30 years. So, there is a possibility of inductions. So a small amount of leeway can be given here.

People will have to be unfair to our defence industry, that's when they perform. Put them on a pedestal and they will be no longer any different from our politicians.

 

[ace009]

Eventually they will get there. But there is no point if the LCA is successful when China is inducting the J-20. The LCA Mk2(a Mirage-2000 or F-16 equivalent) will be ready for induction the same time as the J-20 or 25 years after the first flight of the F-22. This is no longer a success.
People will have to be unfair to our defence industry, that's when they perform. Put them on a pedestal and they will be no longer any different from our politicians.

Funny - consider this - we opened our economy 15 years after the Chinese and are still about a third of the Chinese economy in size. Also our defence industry has very little "beg-borrow-steal" experience like the Chinese do.
So, our making a 4.5 gen fighter ready by the time the Chinese have a 5th gen fighter ready is not that bad - all things considered. True it is not great, but I am sure India can live with it since we are also getting the PAK-FA and the Rafale.

The only way to put pressure on Indian defense industry is to let their products be inducted AND THEN show where the problems are - in real life situations. Otherwise it all seems like "HAL said and IAF said". You can only shout at your vendor AFTER you have bought something from them - not before you do it. If you do it before you buy something, while you are also buying crap from other vendors (like the Mig 29s and not complaining) then you are not impartial.

 

[Mad Indian]

Eventually they will get there. But there is no point if the LCA is successful when China is inducting the J-20. The LCA Mk2(a Mirage-2000 or F-16 equivalent) will be ready for induction the same time as the J-20 or 25 years after the first flight of the F-22. This is no longer a success.

The Arjun is a rather more successful program than the LCA. Tank technology has not changed as dramatically as aircraft in the last 30 years. So, there is a possibility of inductions. So a small amount of leeway can be given here.

People will have to be unfair to our defence industry, that's when they perform. Put them on a pedestal and they will be no longer any different from our politicians.

So???? Even if we get LCA only by 2017 whats the big deal... they are not gonna face J20 anyway!!!!

 

[gogbot]

People will have to be unfair to our defence industry, that's when they perform. Put them on a pedestal and they will be no longer any different from our politicians.

I agree with you there.

But that can't be good for morale or image.
There has to be a better way to put pressure on the industry for deliverables.

If we ever properly build up a private sector defense industry , the competitiveness should take care of that

 

[JAYRAM]

'Indo-Russian fighter jet better than Chinese, US aircraft'
PTI Feb 21, 2012, 03.25PM IST

NEW DELHI: The Indo-Russian fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) is superior than the similar Chinese and American rival fighter jets which include the J 20 Black Eagle and the F-22 Raptor, a top Russian military commander has claimed.

India and Russia are jointly developing the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA FGFA for their respective air forces and have plans of producing over 400 of these highly-advanced fighter jets.

Commander of the Russian Air Force Colonel General Alexander Zelin told Russian news agency RIA Novosti that his country's government has decided to give top priority to the development of the joint venture aircraft.

"While comparing Russia's T-50 PAK FA with the US F-22 Raptor and China's Chengdu J-20 Black Eagle, one concludes that the T-50 is superior to its foreign analogues in terms of its maximum speed in afterburner and standard modes, maximum range and thrust-to-weight ratio," he said.

The Russian Air Force Commander said that despite the comparable dimensions and weight of the Chinese J20 Black Eagle and the F-22 raptor, "the T-50 has much shorter take-off and landing runs. Moreover, its on-board equipment has better specifications than its foreign equivalents."

India signed a preliminary design contract with Russia recently for the aircraft and is planning to induct around 250 of them starting from 2017.

Commenting on the flight tests schedule of the FGFA, Zelin said, "Tests are now taking place as planned in line with specific decisions.Over 100 flights have been performed and all the specifications obtained during the tests confirm T-50 project requirements."

"The tests involve three fixed-wing aircraft, and three more aircraft will arrive in the near future. All in all, the tests will involve 14 aircraft," he added.

'Indo-Russian fighter jet better than Chinese, US aircraft' - Economic Times

.....Is this FGFA thing turning out to be another Gorshkov..?.. Anyone know how many times we got fooled by Russians?!!.

 

[Armand2REP]

.....Is this FGFA thing turning out to be another Gorshkov..?.. Anyone know how many times we got fooled by Russians?!!.

The avionics are not seeing any progress and the engine prototype has been pushed back to 2016. All you got is an airframe with the wrong engines.

 

[p2prada]

The avionics are not seeing any progress and the engine prototype has been pushed back to 2016. All you got is an airframe with the wrong engines.

Can you provide a link for the avionics problems. From what I know the T-50-3 is already flying with the Irbis AESA.

I agree with you there.

But that can't be good for morale or image.
There has to be a better way to put pressure on the industry for deliverables.

If we ever properly build up a private sector defense industry , the competitiveness should take care of that

A private sector defence industry will take between 30 and 50 years to compete with DRDO.

So???? Even if we get LCA only by 2017 whats the big deal... they are not gonna face J20 anyway!!!!

Then what will LCA fight? Don't tell me JF-17, we don't need that here. LCA will fight whatever comes into Indian airspace. It can be a civilian airliner packed with kids and hijackers trying to do a 9/11 or the J-20.

 

[Anshu Attri]

Putin: T-50 is more successful than American counterparts

 ВЗГЛЯД / Путин: Т-50 получается лучше американских аналогов

After overcoming the technological difficulties of long-term success of the project T-50 fighter is beyond doubt, the plane turns better than U.S. rival, Prime Minister of Russia Vladimir Putin at a meeting of military experts.

At the "round table" in the city of Sarov, the Prime Minister spoke about the progress of the project T-50 - a promising aviation complex tactical aviation, and praised the cooperation with India, which, he said, would be to buy the fighters in large numbers, reports "Interfax" .

"Obviously, we will make it. All matters not. The technological question is closed. And do fast enough " - said the prime minister.
"T-50 is more successful than the U.S. fifth-generation aircraft. It also becomes obvious to all professionals, " - said Putin.

Putin, who recently visited the factory-manufacturer in Komsomolsk-on-Amur, informed the "round table" that the air has already raised three similar fighter. "This year there will be a few more machines," - he said.

Russian aircraft manufacturers almost independently completed the first phase of the project and hooked up to work on a plane to India, because, as explained by Mr. Putin, it is "cheaper final price of the product."

"They (Indians) have it and will buy in large quantities," - said the prime minister.

According to the newspaper VIEW, February 13, the Russian Air Force Commander Col. Gen. Alexander Zelin said that Russian fifth-generation fighter PAK FA in a number of key performance indicators exceed their counterparts such as the American F-22 and J-20 in China.

"A comparative analysis of the characteristics of the Russian fifth generation fighter T-50 with the American F-22 and Chinese J-20, we can conclude that PAK FA is greater than their foreign counterparts on indicators such as maximum speed (as afterburner and besforsazhny), the maximum flight range, thrust, the magnitude of the maximum realizable overload ", - said the commander in chief.

Program PAK-FA provides for the establishment, organization of production and adoption of fifth generation fighter. Compared with previous generations of fighters,PAK FA has several unique features, combining the functions of a fighter and attack aircraft.
The aircraft is equipped with a fifth-generation fundamentally new avionics, a function of the "electronic pilot" and promising radar with a phased array.

According to Air Force Commander, of the Defense Ministry to buy more than 60 fifth-generation fighter.

Flight tests of the PAK FA will start in late 2013, a year later they will start buying the serial .

The first flight The PAK FA was held January 29, 2010 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur. In early March 2011 there flew the second flight model. At present, work is underway on the full range of ground and flight tests. The first public demonstration of the fighter held August 17, 2011 in Zhukovsky near Moscow in the international aerospace show MAKS-2011.

 

[ptldM3]

The avionics are not seeing any progress and the engine prototype has been pushed back to 2016. All you got is an airframe with the wrong engines.

According to who? The hardcore French cheerleader that tries to twist and manipulate? Or even worse the French cheerleader that posts some incoherent articles written by armatures that claim such obscenities such as the SU-35 is better than the pak-fa.

I am waiting for you to post something credible that describes the avionics in depth.

 

[gogbot]

A private sector defence industry will take between 30 and 50 years to compete with DRDO.
.

Well, they have made significant progress in less than 10 years.
Going from nothing to something worth of note.

Already they are participating in few tenders.
Remember the army tender for their new Humvee equivalent.

Aren't they also participate in the IFV or ICV vehicle tender.

In the next 10 years i can see them snatching a few projects , maybe not major aerospace projects, but certainly on the manufacturing side.

 

[gogbot]

Then what will LCA fight? Don't tell me JF-17, we don't need that here. LCA will fight whatever comes into Indian airspace. It can be a civilian airliner packed with kids and hijackers trying to do a 9/11 or the J-20.

Depends entirely on what Mission profile the IAF would assign to a Plane like the Tejas
As long as it meets the ASR it should be adequate.

 

[p2prada]

Well, they have made significant progress in less than 10 years.
Going from nothing to something worth of note.

Already they are participating in few tenders.
Remember the army tender for their new Humvee equivalent.

Aren't they also participate in the IFV or ICV vehicle tender.

In the next 10 years i can see them snatching a few projects , maybe not major aerospace projects, but certainly on the manufacturing side.

There is not one private industry which has involved itself in R&D beyond a few parts. They won't either. The failure rate is too high and all they think about is maximizing profits.

A Humvee equivalent isn't air aircraft, ship or tank. They have decades to go to achieve the kind of proficiency that DRDO or HAL have managed to achieve.

I got this from a manager from an aviation company in Bangalore. HAL is killing off competition. He had to lay off a lot of people because of that. Even new employees are afraid of getting in to these companies because of the fear of being laid off. Only undergraduates stay because they don't have a choice. After some experience and masters they join bigger foreign companies. Well, my friend is doing that. He designed stuff on military aircraft for DRDO, was laid off, joining a bigger company in a different company outside the country.

Without R&D, private countries simply build and assemble, there is no competition there. R&D is where competition should be.

 

[p2prada]

Depends entirely on what Mission profile the IAF would assign to a Plane like the Tejas
As long as it meets the ASR it should be adequate.

Yeah. But it should meet ASR. The Marut turned into a white elephant because of engine issues. IAF will end up doing nothing with the aircraft if it ends up like that. More importantly, pilots will have low morale if you give them substandard junk. Speak to Vladimir about that.

 

[gogbot]

There is not one private industry which has involved itself in R&D beyond a few parts. They won't either. The failure rate is too high and all they think about is maximizing profits.

A Humvee equivalent isn't air aircraft, ship or tank. They have decades to go to achieve the kind of proficiency that DRDO or HAL have managed to achieve.

I got this from a manager from an aviation company in Bangalore. HAL is killing off competition. He had to lay off a lot of people because of that. Even new employees are afraid of getting in to these companies because of the fear of being laid off. Only undergraduates stay because they don't have a choice. After some experience and masters they join bigger foreign companies. Well, my friend is doing that. He designed stuff on military aircraft for DRDO, was laid off, joining a bigger company in a different company outside the country.

Without R&D, private countries simply build and assemble, there is no competition there. R&D is where competition should be.

That is interesting , i did not know jobs were a problem.
I thought the defense sector was seeing increasing investment.

L&T goes beyond a few parts surely ?
and they can't be the only one.

 

[gogbot]

Yeah. But it should meet ASR.

Well , i don't see IAF inducting the Tejas without it meeting the ASR.
They have been very staunch on that position and rightfully so.

However to question its capabilities as if it were inducted and then not apply the ASR to it , is really a pointless way of looking at it.
It either meets the ASR = inucdcted
does not meet ASR = development

The Marut turned into a white elephant because of engine issues. IAF will end up doing nothing with the aircraft if it ends up like that.

Due to factor's beyond either the IAF's or HAL's control.
They could not import new engine or develop new one on their own

Yes , the project was crippled as a result.

But that can't be used as fear mongering for all projects.

pilots will have low morale if you give them substandard junk.

I am going to hazard a guess and say
They would prefer the Tejas(ASR) to the mig-21

At least the Ejection system is better.

 

[p2prada]

That is interesting , i did not know jobs were a problem.
I thought the defense sector was seeing increasing investment.

Jobs aren't a problem in the DPSUs, only in the private industry. The DPSUs are kicking out competition like crazy. Only a Tata or L&T can survive, that is only possible with govt support. An example is the FICV project where the DPSUs are banned from taking part. If they did'nt then the private industry won't be able to compete on a cost basis against the DPSUs where the pay is sh!t and money comes from the exchequer. Why do you think some officials want to use the assembly line that already exists instead of making a new one? Costs are too high and guarantees too low. The Army can simply reject everything and import.

L&T goes beyond a few parts surely ?
and they can't be the only one.

L&T does not do R&D. Only manufacture or manufacturing related R&D, never a platform. They simply don't have the experience or the manpower.

Well , i don't see IAF inducting the Tejas without it meeting the ASR.
They have been very staunch on that position and rightfully so.

Don't be so sure. IA was forced to induct the Arjun without having met requirements. LCA has already undergone induction without IOC. A squadron is being raised as we speak.

Due to factor's beyond either the IAF's or HAL's control.
They could not import new engine or develop new one on their own

Yes , the project was crippled as a result.

But that can't be used as fear mongering for all projects.

Which is a better option? Keeping tabs on projects and making sure everything works or testing them out in battlefields. Do we need hundreds killed and thousands wounded to determine if something works or not?

By keeping stuff in labs, things can be controlled. Bringing the stuff outside, especially to a battlefield, things can quickly go out of control. The Americans brought out untested Patriot batteries in the Iraq war and they started shooting down their own aircraft. We can't afford such luxuries like the Americans can.

JF-17 is a more successful project than LCA. And personally I think even the JF-17 is a waste of time, even for China.

I am going to hazard a guess and say
They would prefer the Tejas(ASR) to the mig-21

At least the Ejection system is better.

Peace time operations are fine. But if you want to give them options then give them the option between MKI, Rafale and LCA as a replacement to the Mig-21. Then see what they will choose. Considering we can afford all three, the option should exist.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Russia Must Build Two Variants of 5G Fighter - Rogozin

Russian aircraft manufacturers must develop at least two competitive prototypes of a fifth-generation fighter jet, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said on Thursday.

"Two variants of the future fighter jet must be developed to encourage competition," Rogozin said at a meeting with Russian lawmakers.

According to the Russian Defense Ministry, the future fighter must possess all technical characteristics of a fifth-generation fighter, including elements of stealth technology, supersonic cruising speed, highly-integrated avionics, electronics and fire-control systems.

The existing T-50 prototype, developed under the program PAK FA (Future Aviation System for Tactical Air Force) at the Sukhoi aircraft design bureau, made its maiden flight in Russia's Far East in January 2010 and made its first public appearance at the MAKS-2011 air show near Moscow on August 17, 2011.

There are currently three fifth-generation T-50 fighters in tests, and a total number of 14 aircraft is planned for test flights by 2015.

The T-50 is expected to enter service in 2016 and gradually replace MiG-29 Fulcrum and Su-27 Flanker fighter jets in the Russian Air Force.

Russia Must Build Two Variants of 5G Fighter - Rogozin | Defense | RIA Novosti

 

[Kunal Biswas]

The "OLS-50".

 

[Kunal Biswas]