Sukhoi PAK FA

[bhramos]

Would be the same for

MMRCA
MKI

??

Your explanation is not a very accurate one.

Two man crew's are more expensive
They have to work together , and may not get along
Needing two pilots for every aircraft mean the 250 FGFA india plans to order , will need 550 pilots , as well as reserves.

Performance is always reduced in varying degree with the addition of extra weight and such due to the second seat.

But twin seat pilots , enjoy a significant advantage , in the battle situation as opposed to their singe seat pilots.

For starters the operations on the plane and the flying of the plane can be split between the pilots.
The multi-tasking and situational awareness of the aircraft will go up instantly.

2 pilots comprise 1 pilot+ 1 systems/Weapons officer who need not be a pilot.. but pilot will be deployed in IAF. for only long range sorties. so in IAF pilot should be given both trainings, so its a costly matter over here.

 

[Armand2REP]

Would be the same for

MMRCA
MKI

??

Your explanation is not a very accurate one.

It is simplistic, but it is quite accurate.

Two man crew's are more expensive
They have to work together , and may not get along
Needing two pilots for every aircraft mean the 250 FGFA india plans to order , will need 550 pilots , as well as reserves.

If crews don't get along they have no business being in the Air Force. It isn't a second pilot, it is a Weapons Officer which is entirely different training. They will need 250 pilots and 250 WSOs, including reserves. The decision of two seaters is not of concern here, what its purpose is.

Performance is always reduced in varying degree with the addition of extra weight and such due to the second seat.

But twin seat pilots , enjoy a significant advantage , in the battle situation as opposed to their singe seat pilots.

For starters the operations on the plane and the flying of the plane can be split between the pilots.
The multi-tasking and situational awareness of the aircraft will go up instantly.

WSO handles navigation, weapons control, and comms freeing the pilot to focus on flying the plane. His job is to handle navigation through SAM threats, selecting and engaging ground targets, and maintaining communications. The pilot can give control of A2A weapons to the WSO but that is generally his domain. The reason single seaters are given the air superiority role is because it is easy for a single pilot to deal with. Add the bombing role it and becomes much more complicated requiring a WSO to take off the load.

 

[bhramos]

If crews don't get along they have no business being in the Air Force. It isn't a second pilot, it is a Weapons Officer which is entirely different training. They will need 250 pilots and 250 WSOs, including reserves. The decision of two seaters is not of concern here, what its purpose is.



WSO handles navigation, weapons control, and comms freeing the pilot to focus on flying the plane. His job is to handle navigation through SAM threats, selecting and engaging ground targets, and maintaining communications. The pilot can give control of A2A weapons to the WSO but that is generally his domain. The reason single seaters are given the air superiority role is because it is easy for a single pilot to deal with. Add the bombing role it and becomes much more complicated requiring a WSO to take off the load.

you are 100% correct,
but that does not happen all the time.
especially in IAF,
Su-30MKI have Long range and mini-AWACS role, where some time pilot will take rest , the takes on and repeats.
to talk generally, Sukoi can fly 8-10 hrs without refuelling. with refueling you cant imagine. it will defenatly affect the pilots health and life,

 

[LETHALFORCE]

cross posted

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2009_09_01_archive.html

Russian AAMs. Part 1

In general, the serial Russian air-to-air missiles are divided into 4 families: short-range R-73 (AA-11 'Archer'), median range R-77 (RVV-AE) and R-27 (AA-10 'Alamo') and long range R-33 modifications. All these weapons were developed by the missile design house 'Vympel' and now are manufactured by relative new corporation 'Tactical Missiles Weapon', where 'Vympel' was merged. The upgraded variant of R-33 missile is the 300 km range AA-13 'Arrow' (R-37, K-37, Izdeliye 610 or R-VD), but the fighters with needed radar capability (Su-35) is only entering a serial production. The same is about 'Novator's KS-172 (RVV-L) missile wich extramally long range (400 km) demand according radar capability. The anti-radiation Kh-31 missile previously has only a limited AWACS-kill capability due to the lack of an active radar. The other kinds of new generation missiles are in active development process in Russia and used to be installed on 5th gen PAK-FA/FGFA fighter. They are yet to be de-classified.

 

[Armand2REP]

you are 100% correct,
but that does not happen all the time.
especially in IAF,
Su-30MKI have Long range and mini-AWACS role, where some time pilot will take rest , the takes on and repeats.
to talk generally, Sukoi can fly 8-10 hrs without refuelling. with refueling you cant imagine. it will defenatly affect the pilots health and life,

MKI has had to take on an AWACs role because IAF didn't have AWACs. That is changed and MKI should be getting new data links to hook up to the Phalcons. At least I hope they get new data links. Those Russian ones are pieces of crap.

 

[sunnyv]

Not crap exactly , but outdated .

They only hook up 4 aircraft at a time and dont know abt the range of operation , btw any news on INDIAN ODL - whether it will be similar to link16 or inferior.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not crap exactly , but outdated .

They only hook up 4 aircraft at a time and dont know abt the range of operation , btw any news on INDIAN ODL - whether it will be similar to link16 or inferior.

4.6 kb/s with a 10 second refresh rate, I call that crap. A telephony modem can do better than that.

 

[sunnyv]

But we at least have one operational , no other jet except F16bl52 when it arrives later will have any such thing in this region.
I think su30 have that since 96 , so once on MLU they will receive better ODL - Hopefully Indian ODL

 

[Quickgun Murugan]

 

[p2prada]

MKI has had to take on an AWACs role because IAF didn't have AWACs. That is changed and MKI should be getting new data links to hook up to the Phalcons. At least I hope they get new data links. Those Russian ones are pieces of crap.

Not crap exactly , but outdated .

They only hook up 4 aircraft at a time and dont know abt the range of operation , btw any news on INDIAN ODL - whether it will be similar to link16 or inferior.

Haha! Agreed. The Russian datalinks are pieces of Trash. Try to download a music file at 4.6kbps. Also, the 4.6kbps is without electronic clutter. Bring in a jammer and even that becomes useless.

Anyway we are getting a new datalink soon, this year end or next year. It will be based on the link 22 NATO standard ODL. The Israeli IAI is working on the project and will take 2 years for proper networking to commence.

http://indiadefenceonline.com/281/i...-offer-bid-for-operational-data-link-project/

 

[Anshu Attri]

http://www.take-off.ru/index.php/news/94-may-2010/469-t-50-14-05-2010

T-50 performed a second flight at Zhukovsky

On Friday, May 14, 2010, the first flying prototype fifth-generation fighter the PAK FA (T50-1) carried out its second flight from the airfield FRI them. MM Gromov in Zhukovsky pomoskovnom. The flight lasted 1 hour 10 minutes and passed without comment, all aircraft systems were working normally. Piloted vehicle test pilot of "Sukhoi" Honored Test Pilot of Russia Sergey Bogdan.

As in the first flight at Zhukovsky on 29 April, in the second flight of the new fighter was accompanied by Su-24MR (T6MR-40), from which we observed and photo-video. Take-off was made at 14.52, just after the Sergey Bogdan executed landing gear, a passage at the airport, then went into a zone of tests. Upon returning to the area of the airfield, he undertook several passes over the strip, and then let the chassis and 16.00 successfully landed.
Recall the first flight took place on T50-1 in Komsomolsk-on-Amur on January 29 this year. In the period until 26 March aerdroma KnAAPO was performed in a total of six flights, after which the aircraft was prepared for relocation in Zhukovsky for the next phase of testing. At the airfield LII he arrived on April 8 aboard the transport plane An-124 Ruslan. The first flight from Zhukovsky airfield was held on 29 April. Today, the car holds 8 flights and a total testing program PAK FA, which will involve four experienced flight instance, includes more than 2000 flights. In 2013 the first aircraft installation of the Party will be put in the Lipetsk center deployment and retraining pilots Russian Air Force in 2015 is expected to begin delivery of mass-produced fighter jets at the front of the Air Force.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

You cannot speculate anything. NOTHING about it has been released. But from the data we have.... I find the PAK-FA actually superior to the F-22.
It's radar......

Everything else, sensors, STEALTH, engines, ETC people speculate about are not to be trusted you know. The only thing Sukhoi gave us was it's pictures, Radar at 2008 airshow. And no matter what an expert you are, you can't calculate the RCS of an aircraft based on a couple of pics. What credible evidence is there now that the F-22 is superior to the PAK FA?

What is it about the PAK-FA that you find superior?

 

[sunnyv]

Anyway we are getting a new datalink soon, this year end or next year. It will be based on the link 22 NATO standard ODL. The Israeli IAI is working on the project and will take 2 years for proper networking to commence.

IAI is only working on Pilot project for IndianODL , not full one .
Dont know when and who will build full ODL which hooks up everything together .

And Indian Pilot ODL based on Link-22 any source or link ???

 

[p2prada]

IAI is only working on Pilot project for IndianODL , not full one .
Dont know when and who will build full ODL which hooks up everything together .

Agreed. This will enable our fighters to access the AWACS and ground radars and also provide a picture on their screens. That's pretty good. The complete networking will take longer.

From what I know IA will take another 7 years(2017) while IN will complete their network program in 2022. IAF should be able to do it in the 2014-15 period.

And Indian Pilot ODL based on Link-22 any source or link ???

Well, the ODL is not Indian, it is Israeli. And my idea about it being based on the Link 22 is the technology being used. Data transfer rates are subject to speculation. Anyway the speed IMO is expected to be between 16kbps and 250kbps when operating in different modes.

The Indian version is not as good as the Link 22. The Link 22 is primarily a maritime network. It is meant to complement the current link 16 on aircraft.

http://bel-india.com/BELWebsite/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=217

http://www.defpro.com/news/details/15167/

The datalink II that is going on the Poseidon will be a more advanced version and therefore has not yet been mentioned in the BEL website. They need to start updating their websites on a weekly basis.

However it is important to note that some Indian warships have been installed with 2Mbps datalinks made by BEL. They work in a smaller area and do not connect to air and space assets though. It is only meant to transfer data between ships in close proximity.

 

[BunBunCake]

What is it about the PAK-FA that you find superior?

• F-22 Radar (APG-77): 200-240 km against 1 m2 targets (estimated range)
• PAK/FA Radar (IRBIS-E): 1 m ² target to 300 km

Remember, the F-22 is designed to never be seen. The PAK-FA is designed to see first.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

• F-22 Radar (APG-77): 200-240 km against 1 m2 targets (estimated range)
• PAK/FA Radar (IRBIS-E): 1 m ² target to 300 km

Remember, the F-22 is designed to never be seen. The PAK-FA is designed to see first.

Is range the only criteria for concluding that the PAK-FA radar is superior?
One industry recognized measures for assessing the capability of a radar is side lobe performance.
What according to you is the side lobe performance of the IRBIS-E?
In other words expressed in decibels what is the difference in power density between the first sidelobe and the main beam?

 

[sunnyv]

Why bring this Side-lobe discussion again , it was dissected from Head to Toe by our Experts of DFI . Check the posts by GAMBIT and others 5 months back .

And the ranges of 240-300 are all when Maximum operating Range that is - Almost all TR modules are working in same direction and purpose. When you are operating at peak ,security vulnerability bcoz of sidelobes is least thing to be bothered about and this is what defines 5thgen Stealth tech your aim is to avoid detection at any cost. ( Low probabality of Intercept)

Question of Sidelobe doesn't even arise for PAK-FA and F22 bcoz most of the time , It will operate in LPI mode rarely exceeding the threshold of Background signal to remain undetected , and when 2 modules signal are in destructive interference in space to allign at directional beam steering , already Leaks are quite less in Perpendicular or Out of phase signal.

Whats more important for these radars is Grating Lobes (sidelobes with amplitude similar to Main lobe ) bcoz these Grating lobes cause problems to Receiver functions and Easy for opponents Jammer's to Jam you .
But use of Sidelobe-Blanking (SLB) circuits where Receiver has Gain more than Transmitted main lobe is used , to minimize the clutter .
And Pulse compression equation are so Good today, that Sidelobes Question dosen't even arise for Modern Phased array Radars operating in LPI mode.

 

[death.by.chocolate]

=omg= Did Gambit say side-lobe is irrelevant? He must have been drunk on some fine single malt when he said it..
Here is a hint for you, a radar qualifies as a low probability of intercept radar when the first side lobe is of the order of -55 dB below the main beam.
What is this magnitude of the first side lobe for the IBRIS-E? Oh! yes, please point me to the post where Gambit said side lobes are irrelevant?

Why bring this Side-lobe discussion again , it was dissected from Head to Toe by our Experts of DFI . Check the posts by GAMBIT and others 5 months back .

And the ranges of 240-300 are all when Maximum operating Range that is - Almost all TR modules are working in same direction and purpose. When you are operating at peak ,security vulnerability bcoz of sidelobes is least thing to be bothered about and this is what defines 5thgen Stealth tech your aim is to avoid detection at any cost. ( Low probabality of Intercept)

Question of Sidelobe doesn't even arise for PAK-FA and F22 bcoz most of the time , It will operate in LPI mode rarely exceeding the threshold of Background signal to remain undetected , and when 2 modules signal are in destructive interference in space to allign at directional beam steering , already Leaks are quite less in Perpendicular or Out of phase signal.

Whats more important for these radars is Grating Lobes (sidelobes with amplitude similar to Main lobe ) bcoz these Grating lobes cause problems to Receiver functions and Easy for opponents Jammer's to Jam you .
But use of Sidelobe-Blanking (SLB) circuits where Receiver has Gain more than Transmitted main lobe is used , to minimize the clutter .
And Pulse compression equation are so Good today, that Sidelobes Question dosen't even arise for Modern Phased array Radars operating in LPI mode.

 

[sunnyv]

Haaaa
What if you are operating well below Background Noise Signal to remain hidden and avoid Detection . Exactly how stealth and LPI works .

Now get side lobe from from this Weak pulse , you will end up getting millions of signals like these (even insects and birds) .
Lets see then how Powerfull your Receiver equation is to bail you out of these Clutters and you identify this Jet before he detects you,
if you think you can detect Raptor by Side-Lobes - Good Luck

 

[death.by.chocolate]

You're not making any sense, I'm still waiting for the link to the post from Gambit where he said side-lobes are irrelevant.

Haaaa
What if you are operating well below Background Noise Signal to remain hidden and avoid Detection . Exactly how stealth and LPI works .

Now get side lobe from from this Weak pulse , you will end up getting millions of signals like these (even insects and birds) .
Lets see then how Powerfull your Receiver equation is to bail you out of these Clutters and you identify this Jet before he detects you,
if you think you can detect Raptor by Side-Lobes - Good Luck