Sukhoi PAK FA

p2prada

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You're not making any sense, I'm still waiting for the link to the post from Gambit where he said side-lobes are irrelevant.
What he meant is the side lobes on Raptor and PAKFA will be similar. So, side lobes alone will not give you enough information if you are trying to detect emission from an AESA radar. Also, the side lobes on the PAKFA will be in the clutter region. Which means the Raptor will not be able to identify the emitted signals anyway.

Comparing the radars of the F-22 and PAKFA is still too premature. F-22 is still a secret and PAKFA is still not ready. So, not much to discuss about.
 

death.by.chocolate

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What he meant is the side lobes on Raptor and PAKFA will be similar. So, side lobes alone will not give you enough information if you are trying to detect emission from an AESA radar. Also, the side lobes on the PAKFA will be in the clutter region. Which means the Raptor will not be able to identify the emitted signals anyway.

Comparing the radars of the F-22 and PAKFA is still too premature. F-22 is still a secret and PAKFA is still not ready. So, not much to discuss about.
Of course it is premature, but my question is to gauge demonstrated capability of the Russian industry to manufacture quality radars - what is this demonstrated capability? What have they achieved so far?
Low side lobe performance demand high manufacturing tolerances part of the reason why the APG-77 is so damned expensive, have the Russians demonstrated such in the past?
 

sunnyv

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^^^^^
Thanks P2p , Exactly what i meant .
Side-lobe equation is relative and in proportion to Main-Beam. If you main Beam is Low-powered and hidden in clutter
Side-lobes are of no use to Receiver

I was searching posting from Gambit . I couldn't find that exact article but its similar to one Below
http://www.defenceforum.in/forum/sh...t-Developments?p=116083&viewfull=1#post116083

Imp part-
However, if a radar transmission is low powered enough it may be able to hide in the clutter region despite having distinct characteristics. Background noise do have occasional spikes that are above the clutter threshold but in order for the RWR system to classify it as a legitimate radar seeker transmission, there must be some level of constancy over time. This detection and classification is called 'probability of intercept'. The word 'intercept' here is meant to denote a recognition that the system is being scanned by an unknown radar. If the transmission is in the megawatt range then certainly it will have a highest level of 'probability of intercept', correct?
And Raptor will always work in LPI mode rather than on Peak-performance . If you are in Peak-Performance Grating Lobes are the one which we should be worried about.

Rest later- If time permits .
I have some good record from Key.Pubs article
 

p2prada

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what is this demonstrated capability? What have they achieved so far?
There are no such answers available with both parties. What are the APG-77's demonstrated capabilities? That answer is not available anywhere in open source.

Also, there is no equivalent of the Bars or the Irbis anywhere in the world.

Low side lobe performance demand high manufacturing tolerances part of the reason why the APG-77 is so damned expensive, have the Russians demonstrated such in the past?
American military electronics has always been expensive. It does not mean anything. The Americans take $5000/kg to launch a satellite. Russia does it in $2000/kg while India does it in less than $1000/kg. Costs don't matter because the economies feeding the research are different.

Also, the manufacturing tolerances that you have developed has been in existence since the last 10 years. That is more than enough time to develop, copy or steal such manufacturing techniques. The British, French, Russians, Israelis and the Chinese have demonstrated such capabilities and so has India.

India already manufactures the T/R modules for the GreenPine radars. They are high powered AESA radars. New variants have also been developed. A new JV with Israel will help us develop the AESA MMR for the LCA. The Chinese have 2 operational AESA radars on 2 destroyers and the Russians already have a working AESA radar on the Mig-35. So, AESA is not something that is unreachable for anybody.
 

sunnyv

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Low side lobe performance demand high manufacturing tolerances part of the reason why the APG-77 is so damned expensive.
Lets See
What side lobes Blanking Technique and Lowering Side-lobes signal amplitude Technology are employed on F22 ????? that will give us some idea to compare .

@P2p ,
Forgot to mention Zalson on Mig31 , first Phased array radar fielded by anyone on Fighter Jets .
Power rating of that radar still is a proof of Achievement of Russian industry.
 
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p2prada

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I skipped mentioning Zaslon because it isn't a hybrid like the BARS and the Irbis.
 

death.by.chocolate

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There are no such answers available with both parties. What are the APG-77's demonstrated capabilities? That answer is not available anywhere in open source.
Also, there is no equivalent of the Bars or the Irbis anywhere in the world.

American military electronics has always been expensive. It does not mean anything. The Americans take $5000/kg to launch a satellite. Russia does it in $2000/kg while India does it in less than $1000/kg. Costs don't matter because the economies feeding the research are different.

Also, the manufacturing tolerances that you have developed has been in existence since the last 10 years. That is more than enough time to develop, copy or steal such manufacturing techniques. The British, French, Russians, Israelis and the Chinese have demonstrated such capabilities and so has India.

India already manufactures the T/R modules for the GreenPine radars. They are high powered AESA radars. New variants have also been developed. A new JV with Israel will help us develop the AESA MMR for the LCA. The Chinese have 2 operational AESA radars on 2 destroyers and the Russians already have a working AESA radar on the Mig-35. So, AESA is not something that is unreachable for anybody.
I was talking about Russian capabilities in general; you cannot engineer a sophisticated fifth generation Raptor killer from ether. Does the capability exist in terms of skilled manpower, funds, institutes and industrial base? Like India, the best Russian minds are no longer in Russia; they've gone elsewhere in pursuit of a better life. Those that remain are found in private or foreign institutes and not the state owned Объединённая Авиастроительная Корпорация – this shouldn't come as a surprise to you since the best and the brightest in India shun the DRDO just like their Russian counterparts.


When I talked about demonstrated capability, I was referring to evidence of Russian capability in the public domain be it civilian aerospace, the auto industry, energy or any other space where the Russians are so far ahead of their western counterparts that they are acknowledged world leaders? Do the Russians make technologically superior automobiles? I don't think so, had that been the case my Russian friend and fellow forum member would've been speeding down the undivided highways of Moscow in his Volga and not a BMW M3. The one area where the Russians apparently lead between 1957–1999 was space launch vehicle reliability, the below graphic shows the Russian vehicles enjoyed a success rate of 93.5% a 6% gain over the US reliability score of 87.5%.



Post glasnost the Russian success rate has declined considerably; some attribute this to lack of funding others suspect that Soviets era launches were not as successful as originally claimed. Soviet records are still being catalogued but experts opine it's a combination of both factors.

Returning to the discussion on F-22, traditional aircraft materials such as aluminum and steel make up about 1/5 of the F-22's structure by weight. The high performance capabilities of the F-22 requires the significant use of titanium (42 % of all structural materials by weight) and composite materials (24 % by weight), which are both stronger and lighter weight than traditional materials, and offer better protection against corrosion. Titanium also offers higher temperature resistance.

Materials such as Thermoplastic, BISMALEIMIDE (BMI) resins and Titanium (Ti-62222) create its own unique engineering challenges. Thermoplastic is made from sheets of graphite fibers held together by resin, this is baked in an autoclave while nitrogen is pumped in to raise pressure forcing the fibers to blend with the resin. BISMALEIMIDE (BMI) resins are also cooked in an autoclave without the need for vacuum and pressure but both BMI and Thermoplastics present the same problem of air bubbles forming within the layers of resin and graphite weakening the structure. In addition, it is important to achieve the correct crosslinks density (linking of polymer chains) too high crosslink density results in brittleness too low will reduce strength achieving the right crosslink density largely depends on the materials and the resin.

Defective composites are unusable and must be discarded; the success of this procedure is dependent upon the quality of raw materials (fiber and resin), the process and efficiency of the machines used during the operation. A majority of the raw materials and tools are dual use technology and is aggressively export controlled.

The use of composites in previous Russian aerospace ventures is limited to a few components and there is no evidence to suggest that the raw materials and equipment needed to manufacture over three hundred airplanes with over 40% composite materials content can be achieved locally –
Russian industry no longer has the capability thanks to years of post perestroika neglect. Even at the peak of Soviet glory, Russian equipment was not renowned for build quality this is evidenced by the number of crashes due to technical failure of Russian hardware.

I re-emphasize capability is not just limited to technical capability and know-how it is the ability of a nation's infrastructure to support a complex fifth generation fighter program simply because the manufacturing tolerance for a 5-generation fighter is much more stringent – a structural anomaly during the thermal curing process will weaken the air frame and compromise stealth.

The process of cooking and the use of auto-clave for producing thermal-cured composites is by no means new this technology has been around for over forty years. Despite this some of the well known issues with thermal-curing such as resin timeout, auto-clave size limit and tooling cost of the auto-clave and associated test equipment is yet unresolved. The use of thermal-curing is perhaps cost justified for building two prototypes but will be cost prohibitive for building over three hundred airplanes needed by both Russia and India. This was recognized by DARPA several years ago that more sophisticated techniques were needed to reduce cost and eliminate wastage due to defects.

The problems with thermal curing particularly the size restriction imposed by the auto-clave is resolved by a newer technique that uses a high energy electron beam(EB) rather than heat, to initiate polymerization and cross-linking. This technique was first introduced in the US in 1994 by Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin with the IATA program (Integrated Airframe Technology for Affordability). The fuselage of the F-18 E/F was built entirely by EB curing at the Northrop Grumman facility. The use of EB require a different epoxy resin, unlike thermal resins, EB resins can be stored at room temperature and is cured under vacuum pressure only an additional benefit of EB curing is resistance to micro-cracking and moisture absorption. The use of EB technique is now wide spread it has been widely adopted by Boeing, Lockheed, Dassault and EADS.

EB is not known to have been used in Russian military or civilian programs, penetration of this technology in the Russian aviation sector will be visible in the form of airplane components that require sophisticated production techniques a good example of such a component is the laminated polycarbonate bubble canopy – I do not recall ever seeing a Russian fighter with a bubble canopy.

Perhaps these techniques will be introduced later when the PAK-FA is ready for mass production but I'm not optimistic since the Russian industry has not demonstrated the capability to produce the raw materials, the tools or the precise testing equipment and software needed to produce composite materials for over 300 aircrafts.

Next, the tooling requirement for cutting Titanium to manufacture components of the airframe is well known. For instance, 'bulkhead 270' the center piece of the F-35 takes precision software controlled machine tools 24 hrs X 7 days to cut from a block of titanium. Since this is a critical piece of the fuselage it is tested extensively using sophisticated metrology tools.

Here is a list of some of the metrology tools used in the F/22 and F/35 program:

- Gantry CMM (Carl Zeiss IMT)
Located at the Lockheed Martin (Bethedsa, MD) facility it is used to obtain highly accurate measurements of the components such as wing skins and subassemblies used in building the F/35 and F/22 fighter. Arguably the most accurate of the large CMMs in the world it is used to scan the form, location and physical size of thousands of bores on this wing skin. The data provided by this tool is used to make real-time manufacturing corrections.

- Laser-based inspection measurement systems (Metris USA Inc. Brighton, MI) Includes laser Radar and indoor GPS metrology systems and PC DIMMS software. These systems allow defect free inspection and precise assembly of machined components specifically joining the wing to the aircraft body.

The APG-77 is unique, it is elliptical. Each T/R module is the size of a finger nail, other advanced western AESA radars take 14 seconds to perform 120 deg six bar search pattern the APG-77 does it instantaneously. The elliptical shape of the APG-77 antenna provides a valuable clue to the low side lobe it presents many speculate it is around -70dB below the main beam, remember to qualify as a low probability of intercept (LPI) radar the main beam gain should be 55dB over the first side lobe. So the figure of -70dB is unimportant, the first side lobe is undoubtedly at least -55dB below the main beam.

The low side lobe performance of the APG-77 is achieved by the tapering the distribution of array elements on the antenna the smoother the taper from the center toward the extremity the lower the side lobe. If all T/R modules were made equal it would be easy to distribute array elements as described above – the phase error introduced as a result unachievable chip 'manufacturing tolerance' required to create identical T/R modules. The antenna array spacing should be precise to maximize power to the main beam; complex calibration is later required to achieve consistent performance. Further, all Russian AESA production radars antennas contain visibly uniformly spaced array elements, LPI and low side lobes have not known to be achieved in this manner.


The advantage of an LPI radar is the an enemy RWR will receive its first warning only when the AMRAAM seeker is locked on giving the enemy combatant a few seconds before intercept. All this is achieved by the APG-77's transmitting several low energy pulses that are discarded by enemy RWR as clutter. These low energy returns are then assembled by the Raptors signal processers and the threat positively identified this technique is called spread spectrum transmission. The APG-77's advanced signal processor is able to render an iSAR image of a moving target this capability is known to have been available only on dedicated air borne radars. The reason for this is the sheer processing power needed for complex calculation using the Doppler shift data was previously not possible on a small fighter jet sized aircraft it was the domain of larger dedicated AWACS platforms like E3 and IAF Phalcon.

I can talk about the precise construction needed for the F-22 radome and its effectiveness as a bandpass / bandstop filter for maintaining LO observability but that in itself is a complex subject.

I don't mean to sound like an arrogant American, I know the short comings of the Raptor. I am not enamored by it for me its just a machine. I am looking for credible facts to prove that I am wrong and that Russia does have the capability not just to build two prototype but the capability to sustain a PAK-FA production line to build 300 Raptor killers.
 

SATISH

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I was talking about Russian capabilities in general; you cannot engineer a sophisticated fifth generation Raptor killer from ether. Does the capability exist in terms of skilled manpower, funds, institutes and industrial base? Like India, the best Russian minds are no longer in Russia; they've gone elsewhere in pursuit of a better life. Those that remain are found in private or foreign institutes and not the state owned Объединённая Авиастроительная Корпорация – this shouldn't come as a surprise to you since the best and the brightest in India shun the DRDO just like their Russian counterparts.


When I talked about demonstrated capability, I was referring to evidence of Russian capability in the public domain be it civilian aerospace, the auto industry, energy or any other space where the Russians are so far ahead of their western counterparts that they are acknowledged world leaders? Do the Russians make technologically superior automobiles? I don't think so, had that been the case my Russian friend and fellow forum member would've been speeding down the undivided highways of Moscow in his Volga and not a BMW M3. The one area where the Russians apparently lead between 1957–1999 was space launch vehicle reliability, the below graphic shows the Russian vehicles enjoyed a success rate of 93.5% a 6% gain over the US reliability score of 87.5%.



Post glasnost the Russian success rate has declined considerably; some attribute this to lack of funding others suspect that Soviets era launches were not as successful as originally claimed. Soviet records are still being catalogued but experts opine it's a combination of both factors.

Returning to the discussion on F-22, traditional aircraft materials such as aluminum and steel make up about 1/5 of the F-22's structure by weight. The high performance capabilities of the F-22 requires the significant use of titanium (42 % of all structural materials by weight) and composite materials (24 % by weight), which are both stronger and lighter weight than traditional materials, and offer better protection against corrosion. Titanium also offers higher temperature resistance.

Materials such as Thermoplastic, BISMALEIMIDE (BMI) resins and Titanium (Ti-62222) create its own unique engineering challenges. Thermoplastic is made from sheets of graphite fibers held together by resin, this is baked in an autoclave while nitrogen is pumped in to raise pressure forcing the fibers to blend with the resin. BISMALEIMIDE (BMI) resins are also cooked in an autoclave without the need for vacuum and pressure but both BMI and Thermoplastics present the same problem of air bubbles forming within the layers of resin and graphite weakening the structure. In addition, it is important to achieve the correct crosslinks density (linking of polymer chains) too high crosslink density results in brittleness too low will reduce strength achieving the right crosslink density largely depends on the materials and the resin.

Defective composites are unusable and must be discarded; the success of this procedure is dependent upon the quality of raw materials (fiber and resin), the process and efficiency of the machines used during the operation. A majority of the raw materials and tools are dual use technology and is aggressively export controlled.

The use of composites in previous Russian aerospace ventures is limited to a few components and there is no evidence to suggest that the raw materials and equipment needed to manufacture over three hundred airplanes with over 40% composite materials content can be achieved locally –
Russian industry no longer has the capability thanks to years of post perestroika neglect. Even at the peak of Soviet glory, Russian equipment was not renowned for build quality this is evidenced by the number of crashes due to technical failure of Russian hardware.

I re-emphasize capability is not just limited to technical capability and know-how it is the ability of a nation's infrastructure to support a complex fifth generation fighter program simply because the manufacturing tolerance for a 5-generation fighter is much more stringent – a structural anomaly during the thermal curing process will weaken the air frame and compromise stealth.

The process of cooking and the use of auto-clave for producing thermal-cured composites is by no means new this technology has been around for over forty years. Despite this some of the well known issues with thermal-curing such as resin timeout, auto-clave size limit and tooling cost of the auto-clave and associated test equipment is yet unresolved. The use of thermal-curing is perhaps cost justified for building two prototypes but will be cost prohibitive for building over three hundred airplanes needed by both Russia and India. This was recognized by DARPA several years ago that more sophisticated techniques were needed to reduce cost and eliminate wastage due to defects.

The problems with thermal curing particularly the size restriction imposed by the auto-clave is resolved by a newer technique that uses a high energy electron beam(EB) rather than heat, to initiate polymerization and cross-linking. This technique was first introduced in the US in 1994 by Northrop Grumman and Lockheed Martin with the IATA program (Integrated Airframe Technology for Affordability). The fuselage of the F-18 E/F was built entirely by EB curing at the Northrop Grumman facility. The use of EB require a different epoxy resin, unlike thermal resins, EB resins can be stored at room temperature and is cured under vacuum pressure only an additional benefit of EB curing is resistance to micro-cracking and moisture absorption. The use of EB technique is now wide spread it has been widely adopted by Boeing, Lockheed, Dassault and EADS.

EB is not known to have been used in Russian military or civilian programs, penetration of this technology in the Russian aviation sector will be visible in the form of airplane components that require sophisticated production techniques a good example of such a component is the laminated polycarbonate bubble canopy – I do not recall ever seeing a Russian fighter with a bubble canopy.

Perhaps these techniques will be introduced later when the PAK-FA is ready for mass production but I'm not optimistic since the Russian industry has not demonstrated the capability to produce the raw materials, the tools or the precise testing equipment and software needed to produce composite materials for over 300 aircrafts.

Next, the tooling requirement for cutting Titanium to manufacture components of the airframe is well known. For instance, 'bulkhead 270' the center piece of the F-35 takes precision software controlled machine tools 24 hrs X 7 days to cut from a block of titanium. Since this is a critical piece of the fuselage it is tested extensively using sophisticated metrology tools.

Here is a list of some of the metrology tools used in the F/22 and F/35 program:

- Gantry CMM (Carl Zeiss IMT)
Located at the Lockheed Martin (Bethedsa, MD) facility it is used to obtain highly accurate measurements of the components such as wing skins and subassemblies used in building the F/35 and F/22 fighter. Arguably the most accurate of the large CMMs in the world it is used to scan the form, location and physical size of thousands of bores on this wing skin. The data provided by this tool is used to make real-time manufacturing corrections.

- Laser-based inspection measurement systems (Metris USA Inc. Brighton, MI) Includes laser Radar and indoor GPS metrology systems and PC DIMMS software. These systems allow defect free inspection and precise assembly of machined components specifically joining the wing to the aircraft body.

The APG-77 is unique, it is elliptical. Each T/R module is the size of a finger nail, other advanced western AESA radars take 14 seconds to perform 120 deg six bar search pattern the APG-77 does it instantaneously. The elliptical shape of the APG-77 antenna provides a valuable clue to the low side lobe it presents many speculate it is around -70dB below the main beam, remember to qualify as a low probability of intercept (LPI) radar the main beam gain should be 55dB over the first side lobe. So the figure of -70dB is unimportant, the first side lobe is undoubtedly at least -55dB below the main beam.

The low side lobe performance of the APG-77 is achieved by the tapering the distribution of array elements on the antenna the smoother the taper from the center toward the extremity the lower the side lobe. If all T/R modules were made equal it would be easy to distribute array elements as described above – the phase error introduced as a result unachievable chip 'manufacturing tolerance' required to create identical T/R modules. The antenna array spacing should be precise to maximize power to the main beam; complex calibration is later required to achieve consistent performance. Further, all Russian AESA production radars antennas contain visibly uniformly spaced array elements, LPI and low side lobes have not known to be achieved in this manner.


The advantage of an LPI radar is the an enemy RWR will receive its first warning only when the AMRAAM seeker is locked on giving the enemy combatant a few seconds before intercept. All this is achieved by the APG-77's transmitting several low energy pulses that are discarded by enemy RWR as clutter. These low energy returns are then assembled by the Raptors signal processers and the threat positively identified this technique is called spread spectrum transmission. The APG-77's advanced signal processor is able to render an iSAR image of a moving target this capability is known to have been available only on dedicated air borne radars. The reason for this is the sheer processing power needed for complex calculation using the Doppler shift data was previously not possible on a small fighter jet sized aircraft it was the domain of larger dedicated AWACS platforms like E3 and IAF Phalcon.

I can talk about the precise construction needed for the F-22 radome and its effectiveness as a bandpass / bandstop filter for maintaining LO observability but that in itself is a complex subject.

I don't mean to sound like an arrogant American, I know the short comings of the Raptor. I am not enamored by it for me its just a machine. I am looking for credible facts to prove that I am wrong and that Russia does have the capability not just to build two prototype but the capability to sustain a PAK-FA production line to build 300 Raptor killers.

DBC... Resin polymerisation c\is activated by a chemical present in it which is called as the activator. The Polymer monomer ratio plays an every important part in the polymerisation. I am using composites for a very long time and the whole strength of the composite depends on the shape, size and the aamount and quality of the fillers present in the poly mer. The composite's polymerisation can be activated by heat, light and sometimes it can also be self cured (Curing = polymerisation reaction). The heat cured polymers have the highest rate of polymerisation reaction taking place and is also economically feasible. The electron Beam polymerisation has been used in dentistry for more than 2 decades while curing high strength filling materials but was found to be too costly and injurious to tissues. The autoclave is normally used as it is more economical.

http://www.ms.ornl.gov/PMC/pdf/janke2.pdf

The heat curing also offers a slow curing process and hence the porosity errors and the even ness of the material curing is far better than the EB and the visibile light cured compoisite. The EB and visible cured composite materials always tend to face porosity problems and so are the self initiated polymerisation reactions.

http://www.pageranknet.com/mechanic...ON-PROCESSES,Heat-Curing,Moisture-Curing.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poly(methyl_methacrylate)

This will help u understand the different types of polymerisation reactions that take place by different initiators.
 

arps

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Of course it is premature, but my question is to gauge demonstrated capability of the Russian industry to manufacture quality radars - what is this demonstrated capability? What have they achieved so far?
Low side lobe performance demand high manufacturing tolerances part of the reason why the APG-77 is so damned expensive, have the Russians demonstrated such in the past?
As u wanted to see the proof,Russians had proved that in fighter aircraft category they can kick US figters(f15,f16,f18) big time..Example(SU MKI, SU35)..even ur US pilots accepted they r better..And regarding the cost,as rightly pointed out, depends on where r u doing R&D.. So leaving aside all the other explanations, Russians have proved that to US pilots and they can do it again..So u can think PAK FA may kick F22 big time also.
 

sunnyv

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There is nothing for doubt to demonstrate the capability of Russians.
Since Discussion started on the all important Holy Sidelobe thing ,
BARS of MKI has first peak sidelobe of -(30-35) db and an average of -50db and IRBIS would only be better than this , that to when BARS was designed for shear performance and not for low probability of intercept .
Now where to compare - we take an example of Brand new block52F16 with APG68V9 radar which gives -35db as first sidelobe .

Now compare the peak power of main beam of BARS and APG68 , which one is more powerful ????. Sidelobe are always equated by the Main-Beam's value
Its not bcoz radar tech is inferior of APG but bcoz BARS has 2-TWT tubes and bigger space in nose to accomodate that big radar . If BARS even being much more powerful than APG68 can give sidelobe readings similar to what F16 achieves with low-powered main beam , speaks the Robustness of TECH itself
 

plugwater

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Russian Stealth Fighter Test Flight

 
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sunnyv

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^^^^^^^^^^
No need to be comment on my Profession.

That Vayu Sena article is 6 years back , from then on Bars has gone many upgrades if you missed that . you will find everything just search a bit this forum.
Look at the difference btw AVG readings 48 and quoted 50 by me , you think those old data are true and esp when BARS has evolved thru 3 stages .
for your sake - F16 APG66 had just -25db as first sidelobe , i quote -30 to -35 , bcoz APG-66 has evolved to Apg68 . Same is the case with MKI
 

p2prada

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I was talking about Russian capabilities in general; you cannot engineer a sophisticated fifth generation Raptor killer from ether.
They have a flying prototype. Is that not enough?

Does the capability exist in terms of skilled manpower, funds, institutes and industrial base?
They have skilled manpower, funds are coming from 2 countries, institutes and industrial base is proven. They have the largest reserves of weapons systems in the world.

Like India, the best Russian minds are no longer in Russia; they've gone elsewhere in pursuit of a better life.
That is the silliest statement I ever heard. There are 20 million Indians living outside India. They are 1.2 Billion people living inside India. So, are you trying to say the smartest Indians are the ones living in the US while the dumbest ones stayed back in India. Same with Russia.

Those that remain are found in private or foreign institutes and not the state owned Объединённая Авиастроительная Корпорация – this shouldn't come as a surprise to you since the best and the brightest in India shun the DRDO just like their Russian counterparts.
It is not true. No matter how much money a company can give me there is no way I can work with the levels of technology the govt owned military complexes can provide. If you want to work with satellites, rockets, missiles, aircraft etc you don't work in Dell, you either work in ISRO or DRDO. There are plenty of people willing to work for large govt owned enterprises for considerably lesser pay because of their passion towards such technology.

A huge number of the best and the brightest in India prefer join the govt in large numbers.

When I talked about demonstrated capability, I was referring to evidence of Russian capability in the public domain be it civilian aerospace, the auto industry, energy or any other space where the Russians are so far ahead of their western counterparts that they are acknowledged world leaders?
Military technology.

Do the Russians make technologically superior automobiles?
Neither do the Israelis.

Post glasnost the Russian success rate has declined considerably; some attribute this to lack of funding others suspect that Soviets era launches were not as successful as originally claimed. Soviet records are still being catalogued but experts opine it's a combination of both factors.
It is lack of funding. When American space shuttles were crashing and blowing up every other day it was the Russians who were ferrying huge amounts of supplies and also astronauts to the ISS. Even today, if the Americans stop their launches the ISS will still be completed, albeit delayed. If the Russians stop their launches then the entire project will crumble.

In the ISS there is always a Russian rocket available in case something goes wrong. An American shuttle stays in orbit for 7 to 14 days while a Russian rocket stays in orbit for close to 200 days at a time.

Returning to the discussion on F-22, traditional aircraft materials such as aluminum and steel make up about 1/5 of the F-22's structure by weight. The high performance capabilities of the F-22 requires the significant use of titanium (42 % of all structural materials by weight) and composite materials (24 % by weight), which are both stronger and lighter weight than traditional materials, and offer better protection against corrosion. Titanium also offers higher temperature resistance.
Huh! Makes no sense. Both LCA and Eurofighter come with more composites by percentage than the F-22.

Defective composites are unusable and must be discarded; the success of this procedure is dependent upon the quality of raw materials (fiber and resin), the process and efficiency of the machines used during the operation. A majority of the raw materials and tools are dual use technology and is aggressively export controlled.
Composites is quite old. So, why bring it up? LCA was built using composites in 1991.

The use of composites in previous Russian aerospace ventures is limited to a few components and there is no evidence to suggest that the raw materials and equipment needed to manufacture over three hundred airplanes with over 40% composite materials content can be achieved locally –
Russian industry no longer has the capability thanks to years of post perestroika neglect. Even at the peak of Soviet glory, Russian equipment was not renowned for build quality this is evidenced by the number of crashes due to technical failure of Russian hardware.
Hardly true. The software used to design composites on the Airbus aircrafts was Made In India by the ADA for the LCA program. Airbus bought it for their use only a few years ago. The Russian are equally good if not better.

I re-emphasize capability is not just limited to technical capability and know-how it is the ability of a nation's infrastructure to support a complex fifth generation fighter program simply because the manufacturing tolerance for a 5-generation fighter is much more stringent – a structural anomaly during the thermal curing process will weaken the air frame and compromise stealth.
You are badly mistaken about the Russian capabilities.

The process of cooking and the use of auto-clave for producing thermal-cured composites is by no means new this technology has been around for over forty years. Despite this some of the well known issues with thermal-curing such as resin timeout, auto-clave size limit and tooling cost of the auto-clave and associated test equipment is yet unresolved. The use of thermal-curing is perhaps cost justified for building two prototypes but will be cost prohibitive for building over three hundred airplanes needed by both Russia and India. This was recognized by DARPA several years ago that more sophisticated techniques were needed to reduce cost and eliminate wastage due to defects.
Yes. Europe and India have used composites to a very large extent. It is the F-22 which has lesser composites in comparison. India has plans of building much more than 300 LCAs with over 95% in composites. So all of this is just a hiccup.

I do not recall ever seeing a Russian fighter with a bubble canopy.[/B]
LCA has a bubble canopy.

Perhaps these techniques will be introduced later when the PAK-FA is ready for mass production but I'm not optimistic since the Russian industry has not demonstrated the capability to produce the raw materials, the tools or the precise testing equipment and software needed to produce composite materials for over 300 aircrafts.
So, it is you who are not optimistic. Or I should not believe the words of over 2000 scientists with Phds.

Next, the tooling requirement for cutting Titanium to manufacture components of the airframe is well known. For instance, 'bulkhead 270' the center piece of the F-35 takes precision software controlled machine tools 24 hrs X 7 days to cut from a block of titanium. Since this is a critical piece of the fuselage it is tested extensively using sophisticated metrology tools.

Here is a list of some of the metrology tools used in the F/22 and F/35 program:

- Gantry CMM (Carl Zeiss IMT)
Located at the Lockheed Martin (Bethedsa, MD) facility it is used to obtain highly accurate measurements of the components such as wing skins and subassemblies used in building the F/35 and F/22 fighter. Arguably the most accurate of the large CMMs in the world it is used to scan the form, location and physical size of thousands of bores on this wing skin. The data provided by this tool is used to make real-time manufacturing corrections.

- Laser-based inspection measurement systems (Metris USA Inc. Brighton, MI) Includes laser Radar and indoor GPS metrology systems and PC DIMMS software. These systems allow defect free inspection and precise assembly of machined components specifically joining the wing to the aircraft body.
Look. Just because American manufacturing differs from other countries does not mean yours is the best.

The APG-77 is unique, it is elliptical. Each T/R module is the size of a finger nail, other advanced western AESA radars take 14 seconds to perform 120 deg six bar search pattern the APG-77 does it instantaneously. The elliptical shape of the APG-77 antenna provides a valuable clue to the low side lobe it presents many speculate it is around -70dB below the main beam, remember to qualify as a low probability of intercept (LPI) radar the main beam gain should be 55dB over the first side lobe. So the figure of -70dB is unimportant, the first side lobe is undoubtedly at least -55dB below the main beam.
The low side lobe performance of the APG-77 is achieved by the tapering the distribution of array elements on the antenna the smoother the taper from the center toward the extremity the lower the side lobe. If all T/R modules were made equal it would be easy to distribute array elements as described above – the phase error introduced as a result unachievable chip 'manufacturing tolerance' required to create identical T/R modules. The antenna array spacing should be precise to maximize power to the main beam; complex calibration is later required to achieve consistent performance. Further, all Russian AESA production radars antennas contain visibly uniformly spaced array elements, LPI and low side lobes have not known to be achieved in this manner.


The advantage of an LPI radar is the an enemy RWR will receive its first warning only when the AMRAAM seeker is locked on giving the enemy combatant a few seconds before intercept. All this is achieved by the APG-77's transmitting several low energy pulses that are discarded by enemy RWR as clutter. These low energy returns are then assembled by the Raptors signal processers and the threat positively identified this technique is called spread spectrum transmission. The APG-77's advanced signal processor is able to render an iSAR image of a moving target this capability is known to have been available only on dedicated air borne radars. The reason for this is the sheer processing power needed for complex calculation using the Doppler shift data was previously not possible on a small fighter jet sized aircraft it was the domain of larger dedicated AWACS platforms like E3 and IAF Phalcon.

I can talk about the precise construction needed for the F-22 radome and its effectiveness as a bandpass / bandstop filter for maintaining LO observability but that in itself is a complex subject.
The F-22 is a completed design. We need to wait atleast 5 years maybe 10 to know more about the PAKFA.

I don't mean to sound like an arrogant American, I know the short comings of the Raptor. I am not enamored by it for me its just a machine. I am looking for credible facts to prove that I am wrong and that Russia does have the capability not just to build two prototype but the capability to sustain a PAK-FA production line to build 300 Raptor killers.
That's where India comes into the picture. We have plans of building 500 for ourselves and possibly 500 for export and these are just initial projections.

Russia will start working on a F-35 equivalent too.
 
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A.V.

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came across this new pakfa video quite nice close ups
 
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ahmedsid

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The New PAKFA Video Rocks!! I mean, who can say this is not a Fully Stealth Configured Prototype?? I am sure once its fully done up, and up for Service in IAF and RUAF, its gonna kick ass!!!! Its looks magnificent, and I am running out of words!
 

death.by.chocolate

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It is not true. No matter how much money a company can give me there is no way I can work with the levels of technology the govt owned military complexes can provide. If you want to work with satellites, rockets, missiles, aircraft etc you don't work in Dell, you either work in ISRO or DRDO. There are plenty of people willing to work for large govt owned enterprises for considerably lesser pay because of their passion towards such technology.

A huge number of the best and the brightest in India prefer join the govt in large numbers.
Here is a 2008 sample of placement from IIT(Roorkee) India's premiere technical institute.
I can provide data from 2009 for Roorkee and other IIT campus in India an insignificant portion of IIT
graduates work for the DRDO or ISRO most end up in private local or multinational firms. Once again you make outrageous claims.



LCA is 40% composites?how many LCA's has India built so far 4??Building four prototypes is easy - mass producing 400 is a huge challenge.
Here is some perspective HAL's capacity to license produce Su 30 MKI's is 10 to 14 annually.
 
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nrj

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Here is a 2008 sample of placement from IIT(Roorkee) India's premiere technical institute.
I can provide data from 2009 for Roorkee and other IIT campus in India an insignificant portion of IIT graduates work for the DRDO or ISRO most end up in private local or multinational firms. Once again you make outrageous claims.
There are way more premier engineering institutes in India apart from IITs. Not necessarily every engineer who got placed in some private company joins it & work there for rest of his life. Many engineers gather experience from other companies to qualify themselves for R&D defense firms. We are already experiencing Reverse-Braindrain.

There are many research passionate engineers in India who can sideline money & facilities.
I'm a young engineer myself & know situation here better. Enthusiasm to join state owned defense firms is quite high. For most of them the problem is the required qualification. Those technology lovers find their place eventually.

There is no lack of talented human power in this part of the world. When bigger projects with demand of larger human capital will be granted, talent will be sourced accordingly.

Migration rate was always there. But just because, talented engineers are fleeing to private firms, it didn't stop DRDO & India to develop world class arms.

LCA is 40% composites?how many LCA's has India built so far 4??Building four prototypes is easy - mass producing 400 is a huge challenge.
Here is some perspective HAL's capacity to license produce Su 30 MKI's is 10 to 14 annually.
HAL's capacity is based on the requirement of Armed forces & approval from MOD. HAL producing lesser number of fighter doesn't mean they can't increase their production rate.

We have a planned approach towards production. We are never waging war so to need large number of production lines. When the GOI/MOD orders will come up, production lines will be setup & required numbers will be delivered.

For production numbers, Demand & GOI orders are the variables not the capacity.

PAK FA numbers will be met accordingly. Unless capability is determined, official claims on numbers are not made in this nation.
 
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