Sukhoi PAK FA

[smestarz]

were you never aware of it before


well the IAF wants the aircraft As soon as possible,especially since it is entering service in the russian airforce.
the aircraft is well and ready ,it make no sense to bring DRDO in and try to reinvent the wheel again,IT will take more time and money.let them focus on the AMCA

To be sure, IAF is like a brat which is stuck on Rafale for some reason, and it is trying in many ways to reject any more Russian planes PAKFA or FGFA or Tejas or even AMCA.
Recently air forces asked the govt to permit them to raise more squadrons, and just few years before the earlier ACM Browne did reduce the order of FGFA from 200+ to 144. Thus how does it work?

1. IAF wants planes. urgently
2. IAF wants Rafale 126 and the options of 63
3. Even though tejas is available, IAF is going to limit its purchase to 40 , so it does not want more tejas
4. Tejas 2 which was as per final specs for IAF. IAF wants only 40 planes
5. FGFA which is 5th Gen plane IAF reduced its nos from 200+ to 144
6. IAF asks Govt to allow it to raise more squadrons

so considering all the 5 above facts what does it tell you about intentions of IAF?
I am very sure that if order for Rafale is done IAF will be crying like baby to order 200 more Rafales.

India as per me is only country in the world to have highest nos of TWIN ENGINE PLANES .
Also compare with France, India has more twin engine planes as compared to single engine planes.

 

[sorcerer]

Current PAK FA prototypes and the Su-35S have "item 117S" (AL-41F1S) engines.

"Military parity." United Engine Company (APC) has been developing the engine for the second stage of the fifth generation fighter T-50 PAKFA so as to ensure that the beginning of flight tests with the new power plant in 2017, according to Lenta.ru referring to the statement of the General Director Vladislav Masalova UEC.


Masalov said that it will be the engines with the "primary resource", which in the future will ensure the achievement of the T-50 supersonic cruising speed. According to him, the main parameters of the engine will be 15-18% more efficient than currently used turbofan "article 117". This engine is a further development turbofans AL-41FS ("the product 117C"), the Su-35S and installed a prototype T-50.


The engine of the second stage is known as "article 30" (formerly erroneously referred to as "product 129"). In April 2011, the managing director of "Saturn" Ilya Fedorov said that the bench tests turbofans will begin in 2014. Traction engine should reach maximal 107 kN (11,000 kg), in the afterburner 176 kN (about 18,000 kg). In comparison, similar parameters turbofan F119-PW-100 American fighter F-22 are, respectively, 10,500 and 15,900 kg.

04.12.14 Т-50 с двигателями «изд. 30» совершит первый полет в 2017 году - Военный паритет

======

Associated News

HT to Militaryparitet.com for pointing to Lenta.ru on the status of work on PAK FA's advanced "second phase" engine.

Lenta (citing Interfaks) says a source close to ODK General Director Vladislav Masalov says a PAK FA with the "second phase" engine will fly in 2017.

He reportedly said the "second phase" engine will replace "item 117"³ and give PAK FA supercruise capability while being 15-18 percent more fuel efficient and cheaper to maintain.

Lenta notes the developmental engine is "item 30"³ not "item 129"³ as cited previously in Russian media.

The AL-41F1 is "item 117." Current PAK FA prototypes and the Su-35S have "item 117S" (AL-41F1S) engines.

Recall, in 2010, ODK along with NPO Saturn hoped the "second phase" engine would fly by 2015. However, OAK President Pogosyan was considerably less sanguine, saying that the advanced engine might come in 2019, or later.

https://russiandefpolicy.wordpress.com/tag/pak-fa/

 

[akshay m]

Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia

Faced with a dwindling fleet of fighter jets, India is pressing its military ally Russia for immediate delivery of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).

New Delhi has suggested to Moscow that the T-50 fighter jet (being built as an FGFA) can be supplied to the Indian Air Force (IAF) while the research to improve upon the aircraft can carry on simultaneously. The same formula of graded improvements was applied in the case of Sukhoi-30 MkI jets.

Top government sources told The Tribune that Russians have been insisting on a $ 11-billion R&D contract for the FGFA project. India, on its part, says since the plane is already flying, such a contract can be inked along with simultaneous deliveries of the plane to the IAF. Russia is yet to decide on India's request.

Bulk deliveries of the T-50 jet for Russian forces will commence in 2016. India wants Russia to deliver 144 jets. Russian go-ahead will give the IAF necessary number of planes to phase out ageing MiG-21s and MiG-27s. In a war scenario with China, an aircraft such as the T-50 would be ideal for missions deep into Tibet. Beijing has a very good border infrastructure that poses threat to India.

Indications of a breakthrough in the deadlock over FFGA deal had come at the just-concluded Aero-India. Both sides separately acknowledged they were close to finalising the T-50 deal for the PAK-FA (Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation) programme being run by Russia.

IAF Chief Air Chief Marshall Arup Raha had last week said: "The future belongs to fifth-generation fighters. Pending issues with Russia will be resolved soon and we will have a compressed timeline for deliveries".

From the Russian side, the state-owned United Aircraft Corporation's (UAC) president Yuri Slyusar had said: "The Russian and Indian parties have reached a consensus on the work share of each party".
Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia

then comes this

Saurav Jha "@SJha1618

New glide path - some Su-50 MKI, then full blown FGFA, then Russkis adopt FGFA. Then improved FGFA for both India & Russia post 2028.

Saurav Jha "@SJha1618

The matter is simple. Commence deliveries of the Su-50 to India concurrently with deliveries to the RuAF. And then send them to NE bases.


Saurav Jha "@SJha1618
Border infra, new EW systems, Agni-V, K-4, early Su-50 deliveries. The grounds for detente with China are being put in place.

 

[rohit b3]

Want immediate delivery of 5th-gen fighter: India to Russia


then comes this

So basically, more IMPORTS, rather than signing the Joint Development contract for the FGFA/PMF? Hope Russia denies.

 

[grampiguy]

So basically, more IMPORTS, rather than signing the Joint Development contract for the FGFA/PMF? Hope Russia denies.

Actually, this is what I was hoping MoD would go for because as of today, India doesn't have any experience of either handling, flying or manufacturing a stealth aircraft. Getting into research on FGFA without any background in it was going to be a serious problem. Hence, instead of going for a longer route of research and induction, this way IAF would get T-50s sooner to study them, train on them, develop manuals, tactics and strategies to use them in combat.It will also remove any suspicion in IAF's mind about whether its a new aircraft or a modified Sukhoi-30/35 !! It can later be reengined when the new engines arrive.

So its better to induct them now and let HAL acquire technologies to manufacture them. This will help in future local production of FGFA and even, AMCA will get a jumpstart. India also gets a fifth gen F-22-ski stealth fighter as a first air force in Asia.

 

[sgarg]

The answer is in two parts.
a) PAKFA is not the replacement for MiG-21 nor is rafale. The replacement is Tejas, single seat, air superirotiy and point defence plance.
The cost of flying and maintaining a fleet of PAKFA and RAFALE will drain IAF of its resources, but on other hand India can buy and use more than 4 times the numbers for Tejas because of its lower operating and buying costs.

b) Role. PAKFA is an air dominance plane, but if you are able to put pylons with heavy ratings, then it can be a bomb truck (not stealthy though) and be able to carry heavy strike, also it has internal bays just in case remember. PAKFA/FGFA will be the sword that strikes the enemy deep. The second line is Su-30 MKI, Tejas and combination of Su-30 MKI will be shield which will defend the air space from intrusion

The most important role however is air-superiority and air dominance considering that Chinese have more times the planes that India has and they can sustain a higher attrition rate. The odds will be more in favour of india with PAKFA than Rafale which is mostly technology of yesteryears. The Rafale line is closing and PAKFA line is going to start, is it not proof of that?

I am sure Tejas can do air defence. However PAKFA and Su-30 are better suited for this role as they can stay in the air far longer.
Tejas Mark-1 ideally supplements Jaguar as a strike fighter.

 

[sgarg]

Actually, this is what I was hoping MoD would go for because as of today, India doesn't have any experience of either handling, flying or manufacturing a stealth aircraft. Getting into research on FGFA without any background in it was going to be a serious problem. Hence, instead of going for a longer route of research and induction, this way IAF would get T-50s sooner to study them, train on them, develop manuals, tactics and strategies to use them in combat.It will also remove any suspicion in IAF's mind about whether its a new aircraft or a modified Sukhoi-30/35 !! It can later be reengined when the new engines arrive.

So its better to induct them now and let HAL acquire technologies to manufacture them. This will help in future local production of FGFA and even, AMCA will get a jumpstart. India also gets a fifth gen F-22-ski stealth fighter as a first air force in Asia.

There will be import of PAKFA, as HAL cannot turn out this class of aircraft before 2022. The current thinking is to get the plane earlier. Talks have started with Russia.
I expect couple of squadron coming directly from Russia just like it happened in case of Su-30.

 

[akshay m]

Russians have started working on a new engine for their 5th generation stealth fighter

The Russians have started the test and design works, aim of which is to provide the Russian 5th Generation fighter with a relevant power-plant.
If there is one field in which the Russians seem to fall behind in aircraft development – it is definitely the propulsion systems for the new jets.

Currently, prototypes of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii—Future Tactical Air System) which is the Russian 5th Generation fighter design, use the Saturn AL-41F1 engines, which are a series production model used by the Russian 4.5 generation fighters, such as Sukhoi Su-35.

We must remember that childhood of T-50 PAK-FA has been quite troublesome and engines have already been cause of some quite embarrassing incidents in the near past.

The current engine should not be mistaken with the NPO Saturn AL-41F engine, which has been designed for the Multi-Role Frontline Fighter, also known as MiG-1.44. The engine used by the PAK-FA prototypes is actually an updated variant of the AL-31F power-plant.

According to altair.com.pl, NPO Saturn corporation representatives recently announced that the prototype of the second engine is expected to be ready for flight testing in 2015. The new engine, shall be ready for the series production by 2020, with the first prototype being completed by 2016, and flight tests planned to happen in 2017.

At least such statements were made during the Aero India 2015 expo by Vladislav Masalov, who is the chief of the ODK company working on the jet propulsion systems.

In the meanwhile, numerous media outlets report that Russia and India are going to sign a contract, regarding the future development of a 5th Generation Fighter in 2015. According to IHS Jane's, Yuri Slyusar, who is the CEO of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), stated that the parties are at the final stage of negotiations. The preliminary agreement has already been signed. The program is to involve the UAC company on the side of Russia and the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited company for India. Slyusar confirmed the fact that the new generation engine testing program is under way.

It is yet unclear, when we may expect the PAK-FA or the Indian fused design to be introduced into service in the front-line units though.http://theaviationist.com/2015/02/26/pak-fa-new-engine-study/

 

[rohit b3]

Actually, this is what I was hoping MoD would go for because as of today, India doesn't have any experience of either handling, flying or manufacturing a stealth aircraft. Getting into research on FGFA without any background in it was going to be a serious problem. Hence, instead of going for a longer route of research and induction, this way IAF would get T-50s sooner to study them, train on them, develop manuals, tactics and strategies to use them in combat.It will also remove any suspicion in IAF's mind about whether its a new aircraft or a modified Sukhoi-30/35 !! It can later be reengined when the new engines arrive.

So its better to induct them now and let HAL acquire technologies to manufacture them. This will help in future local production of FGFA and even, AMCA will get a jumpstart. India also gets a fifth gen F-22-ski stealth fighter as a first air force in Asia.

The article says IAF wants 144 Pak FAs. A squadron or two is okaay...to train/study or quick deployment. But why all 144? Thats stupid. If India wants to become a superpower, they need to ban imports. Or make a policy of not importing more than 25% of their requirements.

 

[akshay m]

self delete

 

[akshay m]

found this in one of the russian forums
they say that this could be the reason why there isn't flat nozzles on the PAK-FA.
Round nozzles that reduce IR-signature without getting rid of 3-D vectoring. but i do not know russian


are there anybody on this forum whocan translate

 

[akshay m]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

^^ No thanks ..

what i actually want from them is this this for the AMCA

found this in one of the russian forums
they say that this be the reason why their isn't flat nozzles on the PAK-FA.
Round nozzles that reduce IR-signature without getting rid of 3-D vectoring.

 

[karn]

Re: ADA LCA Tejas - IV

Russias expertise can be helpful in gallium nitride chips which are a generation over gallium arsenide.

 

[Lions Of Punjab]

Rafale deadlock gives thrust to Russian 5th-gen jet project

Faced with continuing deadlock in the mega deal to acquire 126 French Rafale fighters, India is now pressing the throttle to seal the even bigger project with Russia for the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA).

India has told Russia it wants deliveries of the FGFA to begin in 36 months after the main contract is inkedThe final FGFA design contract has been hanging fire since India and Russia completed their initial work under the $295 million preliminary design contract signed in December 2010. India will overall spend around $25 billion on the FGFA project if it goes ahead with its plan to induct 127 such fighters, as earlier reported by TOI.

All this has gained urgency since India feels French aviation major Dassault is being needlessly intransigent over the pricing mechanism in the final negotiations for the over $20 billion MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft) project. Under it, the first 18 Rafale fighters were to be delivered off-the-shelf, with the remaining 108 being produced in India.

"But Dassault's costing for the 108 Rafales to be built by HAL has undergone a major hike. It amounts to changing the price line that led to Rafale's selection over Eurofighter Typhoon as the L-1 (lowest bidder) in the MMRCA competition," said the source.

"The MoD simply cannot sign the contract if the L-1 price is altered. Dassault should relent and stick to its commercial bid submitted in response to the original RFP (request for proposal)," he added.

Both sides are furiously working to break the deadlock since India wants to take a final call on the MMRCA project before Prime Minister Narendra Modi visits France in early-April, as earlier reported by TOI., instead of the 94 months envisaged earlier, top defence sources said.

With this "accelerated delivery timeframe" becoming the main objective, India is ready to forego the earlier plan for a 50:50 design and work-share agreement with Russia on its under-development FGFA called PAK-FA or Sukhoi T-50.

India is also no longer insisting that all the single-seat stealth fighters required by IAF be built in India by defence PSU Hindustan Aeronautics at its Ozar facility. "We have agreed to a lesser work-share for a realistic contract, with the initial lot of the FGFA being imported and the rest being made here under technology transfer," said a source.

"Like for the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI fighters (majority of the 272 Sukhois contracted for $12 billion are being made by HAL), the curve in technology absorption will also be steep in the FGFA project," he added.

Faced with a sharp decline in the number of fighter squadrons in IAF, India wants to fast-track the FGFA project under which its "perspective multi-role fighter" will be based on PAK-FA but tweaked to its requirements.

Rafale deadlock gives thrust to Russian 5th-gen jet project | idrw.org

 

[Jatt.Hindustan]

The article says IAF wants 144 Pak FAs. A squadron or two is okaay...to train/study or quick deployment. But why all 144? Thats stupid. If India wants to become a superpower, they need to ban imports. Or make a policy of not importing more than 25% of their requirements.

Because Pak FA is such a step up it doesn't matter. We are saving 20bil+ from nixing the rafale deal (over 10 years) so what does it matter. Better to move to 5th gen now when even USA is only 180/2500 planes into 5th gen. We would be ahead of them/whole game in few years, as f35 is dud.

We can import those and continue to make more FGFA and add new engines to T-50 + Make more Super Sukhois.

It is how India did the tank program, where it bought kits to upgrade t-72s started manufacturing few 100 of those each year byitself, + started making/buying load of bhimsa (t-90) tanks.

Goal is to have self-sufficient military, not to 'not import' just because.

If you can save 4-5 years by importing while you study and build your industrial base it is fine.

India is growing rapidly and by strengthening rupee back to 40USD our imports and oil sales will grow cheaper.

--
The goal is to have autonomy, as in you can piss off/attack/defend vs anyone without sanctions affecting your ability to pursue your NATIONAL interests.

Does it matter how we arrive there? Importing by itself is not bad..

But importing expensive junk from the West just because Congress gadars have hard on for white appeasement is bad.

--
Rafale is 2-3x cost of T-50, which is not much more than either Tejas or Su-30mki it is a bargain to get a 5th gen at that price while you upgrade engine, and FGFA later.

Fact is, ATM China, Pak, and USA are facing massive internal problems which they will try to direct outward at India.

Without a 5th gen fighter i.e world class airforce we are extremely vulnerable.

--
We are in a similar position to Serbia in 98/99

Remember that the B-2 Stealth bomber at 2billion a peice was finished in 97 and America was using within 1-2 years.

That is all I have to say about them, if they are not attacking us in some way it's because they can't.

That means we should not stand still and let them.
--
In simulations an F-22 can kill 30-50 4/4.5 gen fighters in BVR (beyond visual range) combat. Obv it only carries 4 missles internally (vs 6 for the Sukhoi Pak FA) so it is a large bargain for us to get a fighter which in real combat could kill up to 6 rafale without even dinging up on the enemy rafale pilot's radar.

Same with the apache deal, we are getting 100s of Helos from Russia, F the apache. We should nix the deal Indians have been propping up the west for 50 years, through inventions like USB, HDTV, Fiber optic etc.

It is time we benefitted our own civilization instead of others, as we have been since 1857.

Btw, Sikhs did not help the melech in 1857 only Patiala did (which also helped them in 1839, 1848 etc. in Anglo Sikh Wars).

Rest of states stayed neutral or fought against them, like Kaithal.

VJKVJF||

 

[akshay m]

India turns to FGFA as Rafale deal falters

Bengaluru, Mar 9, 2015,


India is now exploring as an alternative the stealth fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) from Russia as negotiations on Rafale fighter jet deal have run into rough weather recently, leading to delay in finalisation of the contract for supply of 126 fighter planes.

The main issue concerns the pricing, which is basically the production cost in India, and Dassault's reluctance to stand guarantee for the 108 fighters to be built by state-run HAL. Rafale was selected for the deal in 2012 but the final contract is yet to be signed.

French Defence Minister Jean-Yves Le Drian held talks in Febraury with his Indian counterpart Manohar Parrikar to salvage the multi-billion Rafale contract even as a deadlock continues to hold up the deal.

The IAF which currently operates 34 fighter squadrons as opposed to the required 44 squadrons is in urgent need of new aircrafts to replace it's aging fleet of Mig-21 and Mig-27.

A source quoted in Times of India said, "We have agreed to a lesser work-share for a realistic contract, with the initial lot of the FGFA being imported and the rest being made here under technology transfer."

The FGFA is the biggest ever bilateral Indo-Russian defence cooperation project. The preliminary design agreement on FGFA was signed in 2010 between HAL and Russian Sukhoi Design Bureau to build the jet for use by both countries with India investing 50 per cent of the cost of the multi-billion dollar programme.

The aircraft is based on the Russian Air Force's Sukhoi T-50 PAK-FA platform and the Indian version is expected to carry more advanced features. The project is seen as giving a boost to India's indigenous capabilities to develop advanced fighter aircraft.

Demonstration flights of the FGFA were watched by ex Secretary Defence Production R K Singh and ex IAF Chief, Air Chief Marshal P V Naik back in 2011.

The fifth generation fighter is expected to be delivered from 2017 onwards with the IAF expected to induct over 300 aircraft in the next two decades.India turns to FGFA as Rafale deal falters

if the news is true ,
300 FGFA's to be ordered means Rafale deal is dead.

but lets wait for further confirmation.

 

[Blackwater]

India seals $25bn Russia deal for 127 war planes


The development came following a deadlock over an identical arms deal with France for the purchase of its fourth-generation Rafale jet fighters, prompting the Indian military to hasten an even larger venture with Russia on the joint development and procurement of an equal quantity of the 5th-generation aircraft, The Times of India reported Monday citing unnamed sources.

According to the report, India will also make concessions to accelerate the delivery of the war planes in a bid to take delivery of the first ones out of the production line in 36 months rather than of the previously envisaged 94 months.

However, the report adds, the FGFA contract will not substitute the outgoing Rafale deal, as New Delhi will likely replace it by purchasing a matching quantity of the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI fighters, which are already being manufactured in India.

"As for the Russian Sukhoi-30MKI fighters the curve in technology absorption will also be steep in the FGFA project," said the source at India's Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Aerospace and Defense Company.

The majority of the 272 Sukhois contracted for $12 billion are being produced by HAL, the report notes.

This is while India's Defense Ministry is currently making efforts to resolve the stalemate with Dassault prior to Prime Minister Narendra Modi's upcoming state visit to France in early April.

Meanwhile, the initial contract signed with Moscow implied a 50:50 design and production deal to develop an Indian version of Russia's Sukhoi T-50 (PAK-FA) 5G fighter jets.

The $295-million preliminary design contract was signed in December 2010, the report said, calling for the production of a two-seat version of the PAK-FA and preconditioned that all single-pilot jetfighters must be assembled in India at HAL's Ozar facility.

"We have agreed to a lesser work-share for a realistic contract, with the initial lot of the FGFA being imported and the rest being made here under technology transfer," the HAL source added as quoted in the report.

PressTV-India to spend $25bn on Russian 5G jets

 

[akshay m]

 

[sgarg]

I think the news of a deal is little premature, but MOD is definitely looking for a way out of Rafale logjam.

The FGFA looks more attractive now due to heavy escalation in Rafale's costs. The main issue is delivery timeline of FGFA.

I think at least two squadrons will come from Russian factories and early units will be same as Russian Airforce version.

 

[akshay m]