Sukhoi PAK FA

[Lions Of Punjab]

DEFENCE MINISTRY IGNORES RUSSIA'S REQUESTS TO DISCUSS FIGHTER PROJECT


The program for India and Russia to jointly develop a Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA), long touted as the flagship of a time-tested defence relationship, has run into a stone wall. Documents available with Business Standard indicate India's defence ministry is cold-shouldering Russian requests to continue the negotiations on a "R&D Draft Contract", which will govern the partnership to develop a futuristic, fifth-generation fighter.

A letter from Russia's powerful export agency, Roso-boronexport, points India's defence ministry has not responded to Russian requests dated February 9 and March 3, which "suggested holding of the negotiations in February and March of 2015."

"(W)e have not received any data regarding readiness of the Indian side for the negotiations," the letter says. It goes on to request holding the next round of negotiations between April 6 and 9.

The letter refers to Project 79L, the code name for the FGFA project.

This is a precipitous fall from grace for a co-development project considered so strategic that an Inter Governmental Agreement (IGA) that New Delhi and Moscow signed in October 2007 exempts it from normal procurement rules. Indian defence planners have long held that co-developing the FGFA would help India build its own fifth-generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Following the IGA came a General Contract in December 2008, which stipulated details like work share and cost, and the conditions under which the FGFA could be sold to other countries. Under a Preliminary Design Contract (PDC) in December 2010, New Delhi and Moscow contributed $295 million each to finalise the fighter's basic configuration, systems and equipment.

With that completed in June 2013, the R&D Contract is now being negotiated. This would govern the actual design and development of the FGFA, and is estimated to cost $3-4 billion each. Meanwhile, the Indian Air Force (IAF) has turned cold to the FGFA proposal. Sources tell Business Standard this is because air marshals fear the FGFA undermines the rationale for buying the Rafale fighter from France, a $18-20 billion contract that is sputtering through so-far unsuccessful negotiations.

The first sign of the air force's eventual volte-face on the FGFA came in October 2012, when then IAF boss, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, announced the IAF would buy only 144 FGFAs instead of the 214 that were originally planned.

In December 24, 2013, top IAF officials alleged the FGFA would not meet Indian expectations. Business Standard reported that air marshals at a high-level defence ministry meeting (January 21, 2014, "Russia can't deliver on Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft: IAF") claimed the FGFA has "shortfalls"¦ in terms of performance and other technical features."

The IAF claimed the FGFA's current AL-41F1 engines were underpowered; the Russians were reluctant to share critical design information; and the fighter would eventually cost too much.

On January 15, 2014, at a MoD meeting to review progress on the FGFA, the deputy chief of air staff (DCAS), the IAF's top procurement official, said the FGFA's engine was unreliable, its radar inadequate, its stealth features badly engineered, India's work share too low, and the fighter's price would be exorbitant by the time it enters service.

Meanwhile, Sukhoi is flying and testing their version of the FGFA, which is termed the T-50, or the PAK-FA (Perspektivny Aviatsionny Kompleks Frontovoy Aviatsii, or "Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation"). Moscow has declared it would enter Russian Air Force service by 2017-18.

However, rumblings within the Russian defence industry suggest that all might not be well with the PAK-FA. On January 17, the influential Mikhail Pogosyan was relieved as United Aircraft Corporation (UAC) - an umbrella body that oversees Russia's aerospace establishment, including giants like Sukhoi, Irkut, RSC MIG, Ilyushin, Sokol Plant, Tupolev, UAC-Transport Aircraft, Aviastar-JV and VASO.

The Russian media has linked his departure with problems in developing the Sukhoi-35, a programme that is reportedly being scaled back. However, there is no word on cutting back the PAK-FA, a project personally backed by Putin.

Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project | Business Standard News

 

[myana]

^^ As PM is preparing his journey to France, these kind of defense articles which are downgrading the FGFA acquisition feels like fishy as everybody knows that India cannot afford Rafale and FGFA simultaneously and has to go with either of the one in immediate future.

 

[Alvaritus]

^^ As PM is preparing his journey to France, these kind of defense articles which are downgrading the FGFA acquisition feels like fishy as everybody knows that India cannot afford Rafale and FGFA simultaneously and has to go with either of the one in immediate future.

But can India just drop PAK-FA, i mean as of the MoU and all the signed papers... would not be a recession clause or another penalization????

That's without talking about all the money already spent in R&D, all that money would be lost to

 

[sgarg]

Business Standard newspaper seems to have unhindered access to MOD documents as per the quoted new item. In reality such a thing is impossible.

The article quotes dubious sources and strings a story based on incomplete information.

I would say that above Business Standard story is at best half-truths strung into a speculative story.

GOI rarely denies or condones such speculative stories publically. Defence deals are considered very sensitive in India and details are rarely made public. Even information released to Parliament is sketchy.

PAK-FA is not a replacement of Rafale. These two deals are happening in parallel. The reasons for delays if any are likely have no relationship with Rafale deal.

 

[arnabmit]

DEFENCE MINISTRY IGNORES RUSSIA'S REQUESTS TO DISCUSS FIGHTER PROJECT

...

Defence ministry ignores Russia's requests to discuss fighter project | Business Standard News

Business Standard newspaper seems to have unhindered access to MOD documents as per the quoted new item. In reality such a thing is impossible.

The article quotes dubious sources and strings a story based on incomplete information.

I would say that above Business Standard story is at best half-truths strung into a speculative story.

GOI rarely denies or condones such speculative stories publically. Defence deals are considered very sensitive in India and details are rarely made public. Even information released to Parliament is sketchy.

PAK-FA is not a replacement of Rafale. These two deals are happening in parallel. The reasons for delays if any are likely have no relationship with Rafale deal.

Look at who the author is. It is the self-confessed dalal of LM whose life begins and ends in pimping F-35. His only job is deriding indigenous/JV programs to promote imports from US.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Their are not many their who speaks for India only, not even 'Shiv Aroor', After joining journalism first thing they do to get popularity, they praise Indigenous system and organization, Once promoted to next level they switch their sides to the favorable lobby as per their own Interest ..

I believe, Only saruv`s jha is a better than the rest over Internet ..

Look at who the author is. It is the self-confessed dalal of LM whose life begins and ends in pimping F-35. His only job is deriding indigenous/JV programs to promote imports from US.

 

[arnabmit]

Their are not many their who speaks for India only, not even 'Shiv Aroor', After joining journalism first thing they do to get popularity, they praise Indigenous system and organization, Once promoted to next level they switch their sides to the favorable lobby as per their own Interest ..

I believe, Only saruv`s jha is a better than the rest over Internet ..

Not just Jha, there are a few others good defence journos as well. Like Nitin Gokhale, Anantha Krishnan, etc. Maybe even Jugal Purohit. After reading many articles by them it doesn't seem they are part of any lobby.

Shiv Aroor does not have much credibility. Trishul-Trident (Prasun K Sengupta) is his best friend after all.

 

[asianobserve]

Russian Defense Ministry to Slash Orders for New PAK FA Aircraft from 52 to 12

According to statements from the Defense Ministry, the Russian military has revised plans to buy 52 fifth-generation T-50 fighter jets under its Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA) program due to budget limitations. The initial purchase will now be limited to just 12 planes, after which the armed forces will decide on further acquisitions.

The Russian military may purchase a smaller number of fifth-generation T-50 fighter jets as part of its Prospective Airborne Complex of Frontline Aviation (PAK FA) program than originally planned in the State Armament Program until 2020, according to Deputy Defense Minister in charge of Armaments Yury Borisov.

The military will now buy only 12 fighters initially, and then, following operational testing and commissioning, will decide on how many aircraft of this type it can afford. The armed forces had previously made firm commitments to acquire 52 aircraft.

Production ready to begin

Borisov announced the possible reduction in the total purchases during a visit to the Komsomolsk-on-Amur Aircraft Plant. He stated that "the company is ready to start mass production of the fifth generation fighter starting in 2016." However, the deputy minister added, the Ministry of Defense reserves the right to revise the number of units purchased.

"Given the new economic conditions, the original plans may have to be adjusted," Borisov explained. "It is better to have the PAK FA kept as a reserve, and later move forward, while for now squeezing everything possible out of the 4+ generation fighters [the Su-30 and Su-35 – Kommersant]."
Yury Slyusar, president of the United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), said that the Ministry of Defense has coordinated this position with his company.

According to Kommersant's source in the military, the State Armament Program until 2020 called for the purchase of 52 T-50 fighter jets. "We even created a precise delivery schedule," said Kommersant's source. "In the period 2016-2018, the Russian Air Force was scheduled to receive eight fighter jets annually, and in the years 2019-2020 – 14 such aircraft each year."

New economic reality

These plans were actually feasible, he said, before the country became mired in economic difficulties. "We have now reached an understanding that, to begin with, we will sign a contract for a squadron of T-50s [12 aircraft – Kommersant]," said the source. "After that, we will decide how many of them we still need – and how many we can afford." The UAC declined to comment on this information.

Work on the PAK FA project started in 2002 and two years later a model of the aircraft was presented to Russian President Vladimir Putin. In 2010, Putin said that the first phase of the aircraft's development cost around 30 billion rubles ($530 million), and a similar amount would be required for the completion of the work. During all this period six flying prototypes of the PAK FA aircraft were created.

Borisov said on March 23 that the military still expects to receive four additional fighters before the end of 2015 for testing. In addition, he said that in 2015 the company would also deliver to the military 14 multi-role Su-35 and five Su-30M2 fighter jets.

Russian Defense Ministry to slash orders for new PAK FA aircraft from 52 to 12 | Defence blog

 

[lookieloo]

At this point, it would seem that the MoD is trying to find a way to kill the program (or at least let it die) without humiliating the Russians too much or upsetting voters who were expecting an FGFA "stealth fighter" prototype by 2014. Seeing as everyone here hates the F-35 (even as it racks up milestones and approaches IOC/full-rate-production), perhaps Japan would make a more reliable (read: less drunk-ass) partner for developing a "5th-gen" fighter.

 

[sob]

We have pumped in huge amount of money in this programme and unfortunately it is going the same way as INS Vikramaditya.

Uncle SAM has been flying stealth aircraft for a long time now, and the question to ask is whether the Russians have the requisite technology to make a stealth aircraft. Decades of neglect to R&D have taken their toll.

 

[sgarg]

Why such negativity on FGFA program? And what is India's investment on this program so far?? From whatever I have read, the FGFA program is yet to start formal development phase.

Most likely the program is in joint IAF/MOD review, where many changes may be made to previous plans.

India has no alternatives to FGFA. India's own AMCA is only in early design stage and no firm timelines are available for AMCA. In contrast PAK-FA is flying.

Lack of Russian air force orders did not stop India from buying Su-30. It is unlikely to stop future purchase of PAK-FA either. I think Indian decision making is slow and most likely this is the reason for no news on PAK-FA/FGFA rather than any negative development.

 

[indiandefencefan]

As for the govt. trying to kill the FGFA programme ....... not going to happen. The indian defence establish rarely takes quick decisions of which the FGFA is a classic example.

 

[NLD]

Lack of Russian air force orders did not stop India from buying Su-30. It is unlikely to stop future purchase of PAK-FA either.

Thats a good one Sir!!!

 

[archie]

At this point, it would seem that the MoD is trying to find a way to kill the program (or at least let it die) without humiliating the Russians too much or upsetting voters who were expecting an FGFA "stealth fighter" prototype by 2014. Seeing as everyone here hates the F-35 (even as it racks up milestones and approaches IOC/full-rate-production), perhaps Japan would make a more reliable (read: less drunk-ass) partner for developing a "5th-gen" fighter.

Russia's Defence is slashing orders cause of Rouble crash on the back of Steep decline of oil prices "which i would not be surprised was engineered by US and EU(Speculation)". FGFA or T-50 us an under devolepment product which is expected to excel in what it is designed to do .. and there is no way India would pull out at the moment probably on the back of reduced number from Russian defence forces India might take on faster procurment of the plane Russia vacated.. Rafel is what can be expected to be scrapped if any is expected

 

[lookieloo]

Russia's Defence is slashing orders cause of Rouble crash on the back of Steep decline of oil prices "which i would not be surprised was engineered by US and EU(Speculation)".

*Heh, heh* ...well, Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's and fragile-as-glass to boot... not that current economic measures against it are anywhere near what the west is capable of. Maybe Putin should have thought of that before acting-out like a pompous 1930's goosestepping a$$hole.

That said, given the PAK-FA's high profile up to this point, it's far more likely that there are serious technical shortcomings rather than mere budget issues forcing the production cut. Russia needs this plane now; and if it worked, price wouldn't be an issue, tight money or not.

As I said before, 12 planes are plenty for Putin to save face in Russia, and that's all that matters ("thanks for much money India").

 

[indiandefencefan]

*Heh, heh* ...well, Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's and fragile-as-glass to boot... not that current economic measures against it are anywhere near what the west is capable of. Maybe Putin should have thought of that before acting-out like a pompous 1930's goosestepping a$$hole.

That said, given the PAK-FA's high profile up to this point, it's far more likely that there are serious technical shortcomings rather than mere budget issues forcing the production cut. Russia needs this plane now; and if it worked, price wouldn't be an issue, tight money or not.

As I said before, 12 planes are plenty for Putin to save face in Russia, and that's all that matters ("thanks for much money India").

Given how much importance putin gives to military matters the PAK-FA will be back as soon as the russian economy stabilises.

And as far as putin acting like a "pompous 1930's goosestepping a$$hole" is concerned look back at what the US did in iraq. Invaded it like a pompous goose stepping a$$hole withought UN authorization and coould not even find any WMDs making a fool of themselves on the world stage.

 

[lookieloo]

...look back at what the US did in iraq...

Classic 3rd-world $hitheadism from what is no-doubt an avid RT viewer. If you must compare US action in Iraq to a historic period, perhaps "gunboat-diplomacy/colonialism from the 1890's" would better-suit. And FWIW, how many sanctions were levied on the US over our 2003 invasion of Iraq?

Bueller? Bueller?

Ignorance of mid-20th Century European history notwithstanding (Hitler and Mussolini weren't the only dictators in the area back then), the PAK-FA will most likely spend the balance of its operational career as a movie-prop/parade-ground showpiece. Simpletons such as yourself will almost certainly eat the YouTube videos up and harang the likes of me with "can the F-35 do this?" comments even as the FGFA program produces... wait for it... jack-$hit.

 

[archie]

*Heh, heh* ...well, Russia's economy is smaller than Italy's and fragile-as-glass to boot... not that current economic measures against it are anywhere near what the west is capable of. Maybe Putin should have thought of that before acting-out like a pompous 1930's goosestepping a$$hole.

That said, given the PAK-FA's high profile up to this point, it's far more likely that there are serious technical shortcomings rather than mere budget issues forcing the production cut. Russia needs this plane now; and if it worked, price wouldn't be an issue, tight money or not.

As I said before, 12 planes are plenty for Putin to save face in Russia, and that's all that matters ("thanks for much money India").

Well he Bigger Pompus goose is Iraqi Invasion coupled with atack on sirya leading to the growth of ISIS with i am speculating will bite the same pompus goose more than any one else... Russia is doing what it needs for itself.

BTW i was not talking of sactions which west did not dare to levy else UK conomy which was linked to heavy investmes from london whould have tanked the fragile UK EU economy(hich by the way is heavily dependent on russian gas)

I was talking of a speculative way in which the world orl markets was flooded with oil which led to the crash in oil prices which indirectly caused the rouble crash ..How Saudi contiued to pump oil into the markets and even after new king came into power the same "pomp groose" pres went to make sure oil still flooded the markets.. The whole picture looks more like an economic terrorism nothing more..

Crimea was always part of russia Check history not the one through the big brother Eyes but as a common man..and BTW people of crimea wanted to be with russia anyway but when did big brother actually look at what people wanted??

Either way.. FGFA will be a far more capable aircraft that F-35 thats for sure.if not we can always add more capability by means of avionics .. Base aerodynamics is way better that F35

 

[archie]

Bueller? Bueller?

Ignorance of mid-20th Century European history notwithstanding (Hitler and Mussolini weren't the only dictators in the area back then), the PAK-FA will most likely spend the balance of its operational career as a movie-prop/parade-ground showpiece. Simpletons such as yourself will almost certainly eat the YouTube videos up and harang the likes of me with "can the F-35 do this?" comments even as the FGFA program produces... wait for it... jack-$hit.

Well Ausi are contemplating buying elsewhere rather than F-35 So is japan .... Looks like history will show which one will be relagated to museum not to say F-22 is closed with no budget and F-35 eating all the budget .. FGFA is no where near F-22 or F35 in budget overrruns is concerened. Capability wise im sure there will be close if not exceeding it.

 

[lookieloo]

Well he Bigger Pompus goose is Iraqi Invasion coupled with atack on sirya leading to the growth of ISIS with i am speculating will bite the same pompus goose more than any one else... Russia is doing what it needs for itself.

BTW i was not talking of sactions which west did not dare to levy else UK conomy which was linked to heavy investmes from london whould have tanked the fragile UK EU economy(hich by the way is heavily dependent on russian gas)

I was talking of a speculative way in which the world orl markets was flooded with oil which led to the crash in oil prices which indirectly caused the rouble crash ..How Saudi contiued to pump oil into the markets and even after new king came into power the same "pomp groose" pres went to make sure oil still flooded the markets.. The whole picture looks more like an economic terrorism nothing more..

Crimea was always part of russia Check history not the one through the big brother Eyes but as a common man..and BTW people of crimea wanted to be with russia anyway but when did big brother actually look at what people wanted??

Either way.. FGFA will be a far more capable aircraft that F-35 thats for sure.if not we can always add more capability by means of avionics .. Base aerodynamics is way better that F35

Wow... tell us more about how awesome Russia and the PAK-FA are. Preferably in 6 or 7 paragraphs.