Sukhoi PAK FA

[Agnostic_Indian]

This deal for Pak-Fa is not good for India. We must not press ahead with it and shud concentrate on our AMCA.

why is it not good for India ? single handedly going for AMCA means greater delay than what we will see in Pafa.

 

[Decklander]

why is it not good for India ? single handedly going for AMCA means greater delay than what we will see in Pafa.

USD55 billion for what? A junk fighter with no support and no codes and crucial techs needed for boosting tech in India. We are just buying this ac in the name of joint production. Russians are fleecing us in the name of JV while they are making us pay for the complete development budget of this ac. They are still yrs away from a proper engine for this ac while we can develop AMCA with US help after they have agreed to form JVs with India.

 

[Compersion]

I like Americans they are good also would like to see more JVs with them. But it needs to be done with the history we have with Russia.

We wont backstab the Russians. Its difficult to get closer to Americans but possible with the new realities.

With reference to PAKFA if the deal is similar to what we did for Sukhoi-33 MoU (Memorandum of Understanding) with full technology transfer - i am up for it. From my understanding we were not involved too much initially in Su-33. But we took the SU-33 by its horns and made it better and developed a animal by the name of SU-33 MKI. Is that what the Russians are proposing. I am not sure.

To such a extent the Russia's Defense Ministry was impressed enough with the performance envelope of the variant to have ordered 30 Su-30SMs, a localized version of the Su-30MKI, for the Russian airforce.

Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia's Air Force | Features & Opinion | RIA Novosti

Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia's Air Force

We need to repeat (minimalistic approach) and better this with our Russian partners. We have strengths and can contribute to PAK-FA at the beginning development phase and we want to learn and develop more. We would like to give more such gifts to Russia (recent example are Su-33 MKI and even Mig-29K).

Our Russian partners would respond in kind if we told them that we are supporting them with USD 55 billion +. They will not harm us. If we are paying too much that can be debated. Where else can we get such terms and partnership for USD 55 billion +. Where else can Russia get a partnership that does not harm them. If Russia were to pick a ideal JV partner it would be India. The reality is we have not even come close in that in our American relationship (yet).

We take example of Vikramaditya we payed more but we got what we deserved and from a strategic partner. And it will help our IAC development. Like the Sukhoi-33 MKI (is the) will help in the AMCA. And PAKFA with help in AMCA.

 

[jmj_overlord]

I like Americans they are good also would like to see more JVs with them. But it needs to be done with the history we have with Russia.

We wont backstab the Russians. Its difficult to get closer to Americans but possible with the new realities.

With reference to PAKFA if the deal is similar to what we did for Sukhoi-33 MoU (Memorandum of Understanding) with full technology transfer - i am up for it. From my understanding we were not involved too much initially in Su-33. But we took the SU-33 by its horns and made it better and developed a animal by the name of SU-33 MKI. Is that what the Russians are proposing. I am not sure.

To such a extent the Russia's Defense Ministry was impressed enough with the performance envelope of the variant to have ordered 30 Su-30SMs, a localized version of the Su-30MKI, for the Russian airforce.

Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia's Air Force | Features & Opinion | RIA Novosti

Sukhoi Su-30SM: An Indian Gift to Russia's Air Force

We need to repeat (minimalistic approach) and better this with our Russian partners. We have strengths and can contribute to PAK-FA at the beginning development phase and we want to learn and develop more. We would like to give more such gifts to Russia (recent example are Su-33 MKI and even Mig-29K).

Our Russian partners would respond in kind if we told them that we are supporting them with USD 55 billion +. They will not harm us. If we are paying too much that can be debated. Where else can we get such terms and partnership for USD 55 billion +. Where else can Russia get a partnership that does not harm them. If Russia were to pick a ideal JV partner it would be India. The reality is we have not even come close in that in our American relationship (yet).

We take example of Vikramaditya we payed more but we got what we deserved and from a strategic partner. And it will help our IAC development. Like the Sukhoi-33 MKI (is the) will help in the AMCA. And PAKFA with help in AMCA.

su 33mki or su 30mki ?

 

[Compersion]

su 33mki or su 30mki ?

Su-30 MKI. :cool2:

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

USD55 billion for what? A junk fighter with no support and no codes and crucial techs needed for boosting tech in India. We are just buying this ac in the name of joint production. Russians are fleecing us in the name of JV while they are making us pay for the complete development budget of this ac. They are still yrs away from a proper engine for this ac while we can develop AMCA with US help after they have agreed to form JVs with India.

Junk fighter compared to what standards ? only f22 is better then pakfa today ?
US was reluctant to share 4.5 gen teach with India so forget about any 5 th gen teach, they denied to share f 35 tech with other co developing partners like UK,even if they share we will have to agree to their non sense agreements, risk of spying bugs, inspections etc. so I don't want India to become a vassal state of America.

 

[ersakthivel]

why is it not good for India ? single handedly going for AMCA means greater delay than what we will see in Pafa.

What was the ASR given by IAF to SUKHOI design team,

1. What RCS did IAF want and what was achieved?

Without knowing answers to this critical question we can not move forward on FGFA,

In case the J-20 has a far lesser RCS than the FGFA (possible since J-20 employs serpentine air intake which totally masks the engine blades from enemy radar, while FGFA employs a very crude radar blocker solution to mask the visible engine blades. ) then 55 billion dollars in this JV is a colossal waste of money.

It is clear from the reports till now that IAF is clearly not satisfied with the FGFA, if not IAF would have converted it's now axed double seat version order numbers to single seat version and would have given orders of close to 200 fighters.

Also we are yet to hear any news about it's new engines. Prototypes are flying with older engines not with the new dedicated engine.


Russians are satisfied and rushing ahead with the program with prototypes on older engines, same is not the case with the IAF. IAF wants a better fighter with some design expertise to be retained in India. It is good that IAF is showing some spine on it's demand. lets hope it continues.

if it is simply a less RCS version of Su-30 MKI then we better restrict our orders to 40 or 60 and allocate the money to a far smaller RCS platform AMCA with two uprated kaveri engines.

because ultimately IAF will not want to fight smaller RCS J-20 with a larger RCS FGFA, considering the fact that chinese will deploy a higher number of fighters as well..

Also it is clear we are not getting any useful R & D or sensitive tech via FGFA.SInce we are responsible for composites and Avionics , FGFA brings no design experience as well , since the airframe design was also freezed before India entered the program.

 

[AVERAGE INDIAN]

 

[gadeshi]

Junk fighter compared to what standards ? only f22 is better then pakfa today ?
US was reluctant to share 4.5 gen teach with India so forget about any 5 th gen teach, they denied to share f 35 tech with other co developing partners like UK,even if they share we will have to agree to their non sense agreements, risk of spying bugs, inspections etc. so I don't want India to become a vassal state of America.

Completely agreed with every word except for F-22 is better than PAK FA.

1 - We don't know what final PAK FA will be.
2 - Even nowadays T-50 is much better than F-22 in supersonic cruise/afterburning speed (1.85/2.35 M against 1,5/2 M), maneurability, subsonic and supersonic ranges, weight efficiency, engine specific thrust (11,1 for Item 117 against 10,1 for F-119), datalinks and global communications and control, better, more fresh and well designed radar system. The list can be extended more and more.

F-22 is better in RCS aspect. But RCS is not a single magic number of square meters. It is a complicated function of many variables. F-22 is apparently better (we don't know for sure until T-50-7 will appear at least) RCS in frontal and rear aspects. But all the other aspects are the same.

J-20 is not a real fighter at all. It is a technology demonstrator with an uncertain future, because it is too large and heavy (thus very inert) for a fighter, but have not enough internal space for a bomber. It have uncertain RCS due to canards and unparallel leeding edges. And the most important thing - it has no suitable engine and will not have it until year 2035 or later. So, J-20 is a lemon.

Low RCS is not a magic invisible hat. It just reduces detection range but doesn't make the plane invisible. Russians have mastered a passive Stealth objects detection during last 20 years. They don't treat Stealth capabilities as the main feature worth to sacrifice all the others for it. They have paid serious attention to it, but no more.

This way they have got a flexible, multi-functional and very performant design capable of long-range strike and intercept due to its flight envelope and big weapons carying capabilities.

Russians have made you the besr JV offer in the world! None of your foreign partners will make better one. Just remember the Rafale deal terms and compare it to FGFA ones.
Your country will get the possibility to customize T-50 to your needs and requirements just like Su-30MKI or even deeper. Noone will allow you to do so much.

Russia now have enough money to develop and produce anything it needs to. It doesn't need any kind of money contributors to T-50 or any other programs. So, they will decide who will enter a JV and on what terms.
But the present terms are unique on the market.

PS: Don't forget about another one important thing. T-50 is not a commercial venture. It is a cornerstone of Russian defence for next several decades. So don't be greedy, they will give you as much as possible without breaking the most sensitive secrets.

 

[Austin]

Completely agreed with every word except for F-22 is better than PAK FA.

2 - Even nowadays T-50 is much better than F-22 in supersonic cruise/afterburning speed (1.85/2.35 M against 1,5/2 M), maneurability, subsonic and supersonic ranges, weight efficiency, engine specific thrust (11,1 for Item 117 against 10,1 for F-119), datalinks and global communications and control, better, more fresh and well designed radar system. The list can be extended more and more.

That data is not correct I must say.

F-119 Engine of F-22 has a T:W Ratio of ~ 8:1 , it has higher thrust compared to 117 engine but lower T:W Ratio that engine was developed somewhere in late 80's (Pratt & Whitney F119 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

117 Engine on current PAK-FA has T:W ratio of ~ 10.5:1 , i recollect a statement of its Chief Designer that mentioned 117 engine has 0.5 T ( 15T) more thrust compared to 117S ( 14.5 T) engine of Su-35 but was 150 kg lighter , compared to 117S engine it has 80 % new components. ( Saturn AL-31 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

F135 engine of F-35 series has a T:W ratio of ~ 11.5:1 .

I am not sure what is the goal in terms of T:W ratio for the new Id 30 engine but I would assume it will be similar to F135 series , considering its a clean slate design.

 

[Austin]

Inside the F-35's engines: powering the fifth generation - Airforce Technology

 

[Austin]

Russia now have enough money to develop and produce anything it needs to. It doesn't need any kind of money contributors to T-50 or any other programs. So, they will decide who will enter a JV and on what terms.
But the present terms are unique on the market..

Well thats not entirely true , though Russian defence budget is well funded this decade compared to past decade. Any JV helps its defence industry by infusion of technology and money and making product cost effective for India and Russia due to large orders.

Its mutually beneficial for Russia and India to co-operate and co-develop in an era where even US , European follow the same model.

The Brahmos JV has generated order worth $7 billion from Indian Defence Service alone and considering Russia has 49 % stake in it , it gains a lot from Indian order ....not to mention future export potential
BrahMos bags orders worth Rs 25,000 cr | Business Line

The range and depth of JV in making between two countries prove the point that decision making body at the highest level in both countries sees great benefit and potential for co-operation

 

[gadeshi]

Well thats not entirely true , though Russian defence budget is well funded this decade compared to past decade. Any JV helps its defence industry by infusion of technology and money and making product cost effective for India and Russia due to large orders.

Its mutually beneficial for Russia and India to co-operate and co-develop in an era where even US , European follow the same model.

The Brahmos JV has generated order worth $7 billion from Indian Defence Service alone and considering Russia has 49 % stake in it , it gains a lot from Indian order ....not to mention future export potential
BrahMos bags orders worth Rs 25,000 cr | Business Line

The range and depth of JV in making between two countries prove the point that decision making body at the highest level in both countries sees great benefit and potential for co-operation

Wise words about JVs. Agreed.

I've stated the rejection for sone Indian tensions about "we've paid for Russian PAK FA development, so we have all the rights".
PAK FA program has started in 2004 and India have rejected to participate, so all the technologies, parts and a plane itself is already designed without any Indian contribution.

However, Russians will allow wide access to PAK FA to Indian partners to make them possible to customise their version by the all ways possible to match Indian requirements. Is it to few for some Indian PAK FA criticists? Let them look at F-35 partnership where even UK (the most close partner) has wide but not complete access to the thech envelope. Look at the Rafale deal terms: do the French all of those openings and shares like Russians do?

About the engines: Yes, you're correct about Item 117 and F-119 specific thrust. Item 30 specific thrust expected to be more than 11.1:1. Specific thrust shows engine materials and design perfection and an ability to power-up havier planes with lighter engines.

About Russian budget:
GPV-2020 (National Weapons Programme-2020) includes full financing of PAK FA, PAK DA, S-500, new nuclear submarines and even new destroyers design and development projects. So Russia is self-sufficient country now.
However, all the JVs even for already done projects allow to return investments more quickly and with higher return rates than single-finance projects.

 

[Austin]

Yes I am quite sure when it comes to TOT , Russia can provide the best deal better than France , something India too knows it ...specially after MKI experience.

France and Russia are both reliable partners for India something that has been proven from decades of experience

Pogosyan mentioned during MAKS that India is a hard bargainer and makes most of what it wants.

Also India takes a long time to take a decision that can be seen from many deals we have made in past 2 decades , MMRCA is a prime example of it.

Time is both opportunity and money if right decision is not made at right time there will be impact felt on both front.

 

[gadeshi]

KNAAZ (KNAAPO) Insiders news:

T-50-5 is on the LIS now!!! The maiden flight is supposed to be in one of the nearest days!!!

A high MOD commission with vice-minister in charge has inspected the 01-05 and found the things very good.

01-05 is the first prototype with the full avionics and weapons installed according to Stage 1.
There are the following hardware installed:

1 - Side-looking AESA arrays
2 - Onboard cannon
3 - All the weapons hardpoints including the ones in main and fast weapons bays
4 - A full fire-control and datalinking hardware complex.

01-05 will participate in weapons testing in Achtubinsk accompanied by Su-35, which has started weapons tests a few months earlier.

There are also 2 more prototypes on the assembly line: 01-06 and 01-07.
01-06 is not a flyable plane, but the land-testing airframe for RCS and strength tests (hello stealth polish works and 2.35M supercruise).
01-07 will have significant external differences from the first 6 prototypes. It is believed that it will be the first prototype with all the RCS reduction measures applied and having strengthened body to withstand high full and cruise speeds.

01-07 will be a specimen for LRIP and first production Stage 1 aircrafts.

 

[p2prada]

@gadeshi

What is LIS?

Also are you talking about Mach 2.35 max speed or cruising speed?

 

[gadeshi]

@p2prada:
LIS - Liotno-Ispytatelnaya Stantsiya - Flight Test Station.

Insiders are speaking about M 2.35 cruise speed, as T-50 will also substitute MiG-31 in AD squadrons.
This number is indirectly proven by Sukhoi statements in the news. However, the most probably this cruise speed is expected from T-50M (Phase 2) fighter powered by Item 30 engines.

 

[rvjpheonix]

@p2prada:
LIS - Liotno-Ispytatelnaya Stantsiya - Flight Test Station.

Insiders are speaking about M 2.35 cruise speed, as T-50 will also substitute MiG-31 in AD squadrons.
This number is indirectly proven by Sukhoi statements in the news. However, the most probably this cruise speed is expected from T-50M (Phase 2) fighter powered by Item 30 engines.

what further RCS reduction methods can be expected especially on the rear section? Has any headway been made in the much fabled plasma stealth tech? What will be done in phase 2 of the program?. Just love the way the Russians are going about this program

 

[gadeshi]

As T-50 is only a prototype, there were no necessity to apply all the RCS reduction measures like special joints fillers, dielectric paint, dielectric "scotch tape" on the in-flight opnening hatches (as we can see on F-35), OLS dielectric housing, radar blockers and so on.

First 5 prototypes are for aerodynamics, strength, weapons and equipment testing, they simply don't need those all stuff. It actually even interfere the process as first prototypes are need to be several times assembled-disassembled, receive some structural or other sensitive changes and so on.

As 01-7 will be a specimen for the first LRIP, all the RCS reducing measures will be applied.

 

[Neil]

Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project (Pak-Fa)


Russia is still hoping to sell the Su-35s or similar aircraft to Brazil outside the framework of that tender, sweetening the deal with the new proposal.



"During the talks in Brazil, we are ready to offer our partners deliveries of ready-for-sale advanced aircraft like the Su-35, but also joint development of a next-generation [combat] aircraft of the T-50 type," the delegation source said.

The T-50 or PAK-FA, which will make up the core of Russia's future fighter fleet, is a multirole warplane featuring "stealth" technology," super-manoeuvrability, super-cruise capability, and advanced avionics including an active electronically scanned array radar, according to its designer Sukhoi.

In late April, President Vladimir Putin said the first T-50 would enter service with Russia's armed forces in 2016.

Russia and India are already developing a derivative of T-50 for the Indian Air Force. According to executives from India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL), that will build the plane, the two sides completed the preliminary design of the aircraft, tentatively dubbed FGFA, earlier this year and are now negotiating a detailed design contract.

The F-X2 tender is Brazil's second attempt to find a replacement for its ageing Northrop F-5 and Dassault Mirage fighters. An earlier tender, F-X, was cancelled in 2005 due to lack of funding.

Three contenders officially remain in the running – the Swedish SAAB Gripen NG, French Dassault Rafale and US Boeing FA-18E/F Super Hornet. According to Defense Industry Daily, the FA-18E/F was close to winning the deal last month, but revelations that the United States National Security Agency had spied on the Brazilian presidential office put the deal on hold. Brazil's Poder Aero magazine, citing local officials, says Brazil's President Dilma Rousseff decided late last month to postpone the tender until 2015, after next year's elections.

A Russian delegation led by Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, will visit Brazil and Peru on October 14-17 to promote sales of Russian weaponry to those countries. It includes Alexander Fomin, head of the Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSMTC) and Anatoly Isaikin, head of the arms exports monopoly Rosobornexport.


Russia to Offer Brazil Stake in Future Advanced Fighter Project (Pak-Fa) | idrw.org