Sukhoi PAK FA

p2prada

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Another stunt is the 120 D coated stealth missile.
Would like to see more information on that.

The USA exports a AIM-120C7 missiles for foreign military sales, what is interesting it contains a aircraft avoidance system for american aircraft.
Something that exists on every other missile.

The range of the 120 D is a hundred or more miles,
Yes.

and the new version can use IF, Radar, or Optical.
Would like to know what is IF. If you actually meant IR, I would like to know what's the difference between IR and Optical. Anyway, this is stuff from the 70s if you bring the Soviet Union into the picture. There is this missile called R-27 or as the Americans call it "Alamo." Read up about it.

Just so you know, the US(AIM-9X) took two decades before fielding a HOB(High Off Boresight) missile after the Soviet Union(R-73) did. During the cold war, it was the time of dog fights and the Soviet Union dominated it completely, to the utter dismay of the Americans, when they tested German Mig-29s against American Teens. All thanks to the HOB missile. Technology of the time did not allow a favourable condition for BVR missile use where seekers were extremely big and heavy at more than 35Kgs compared to less than 10Kg and much smaller sizes today.

80 percent of kills are now before the pilot even know they are detected, am sure that will increase. PK kill rate is now over 90 percent.
Pk rate has always been over 90% for new missiles. But that's for non-maneuvering targets. That's why the enemy must not be aware that the aggressor just shot a missile. That way he does not maneuver unnecessarily thereby decreasing the kill ratio.
 

J20!

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PAKFA is claimed to be a stealth plane. We just don't know how stealthy it is. All we know is it has AESA radar, stealth shaping, internal bays and canted tail fins.



Yes, it is very important to wait for further information before jumping to conclusions. The 4th prototype will be very important for the progress of the project.

The 360 deg radar capability on the FGFA alone will push it beyond the F-22. Had there been two pilots instead of one, heck we probably wouldn't even need AEWCs for battlespace management.
I don't think I agree with you there... 1st of all, not all 360 degrees of that AESA coverage will be long range, only the main AESA will have long range. Arrays carried in either the sting or the L-Band slats will never be big enough for long range coverage.

And considering that the F35's radar can already detect, track and jam the F22's radar operating in Low Probability of Intercept mode, its pretty clear that Electro Optical is the way to go for 360 degree coverage, because even in LPI, switching on your radar in 5th generation defended airspace is always going to be the equivalent of lighting a candle in the dark...

What we do know is F-22's most important criteria for low RCS comes from shaping while Sukhoi said their primary criteria for low RCS would be materials and RAM. So, you can say there will be a difference in how a low RCS will be achieved.
What I know is that the rule of thumb of achieving a VLO platform is 80% shaping and 20% materials... Unless you're sugesting that the materials on the PAK FA are superior to those on the F22...
 

uvbar

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i don't get the point of developing a aircraft under standards of fifth generation because
1. in one or two decades radars will develop enough to spot them
2.one f-22 is equal to 3 rafales in terms of cost
3.the raptor is indeed a widow maker

i think we should forget the branding name fifth genration
 

p2prada

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I don't think I agree with you there... 1st of all, not all 360 degrees of that AESA coverage will be long range, only the main AESA will have long range. Arrays carried in either the sting or the L-Band slats will never be big enough for long range coverage.
Long range or not completely depends on the size of the arrays and power delivered.

The nose radar on MKI provides 240 degrees coverage. The tail radar, if used will need to cover the remaining 120 degrees. Is it not possible?

The nose radar should be in the 900mm class. The tail radar does not have to be a 900mm class, it can be anywhere between 600-700mm. That's equivalent to Rafale or EF-2000's current radars. You think that is not enough? Add technological advances that can be made in the next 5 years, you can say the tail radar can very well engage targets at the same level as the Bars can today, definitely more.

The L band arrays in the wing have nothing to do with detecting the enemy. The radar alone has that capability at a much superior level. The wing tip arrays are for IFF needs. L band is not a particularly useful band for air combat. It is good for detection, but nothing else.

And considering that the F35's radar can already detect, track and jam the F22's radar operating in Low Probability of Intercept mode,
It is a natural advancement in technology that has been attained during the 7 year difference between F-22 in 2005 and today's F-35. Heck, you can say the RBE-2AA can be more capable than APG-77 in ECCM due to the age difference between the two. The Rafale's processing capability is above the F-22 and at the same level as the F-35. Also, let's not forget the American designers would already know the frequencies they use for their own radars. Success on their own systems does not qualify as a guaranteed performance parameter on enemy systems and vice versa.

its pretty clear that Electro Optical is the way to go for 360 degree coverage, because even in LPI, switching on your radar in 5th generation defended airspace is always going to be the equivalent of lighting a candle in the dark...
Electro-optical and ESM is always, always less accurate than a radar. Both are highly dependent on the enemy being able to emit when you want him to. Apart from that there may be a time lag between determining the accurate position of the enemy before he released a missile at you using more accurate information by the time you detected your enemy.

Comparatively, the enemy has the option of using his radar when he wants to, ie, when he is in a position of strength. That luxury is not available to an aircraft using passive systems. Certain levels of detection is possible against stealth aircraft. But the information is never accurate and you never know when you are being spoofed until it is to late. You can call it a double edged sword. You may fall victim to your own device.

Anyway you can be sure PAKFA/FGFA will come with 360 degree electro-optical and ESM systems. Let's not forget that it is the Russians who started it. So, with FGFA we may have all that you said along with 360 degrees radar capability and you can also add backward firing missiles to the list along with anti missile systems capable of hardkills. Speculations, but not unrealistic. Backward firing missiles have been tested for the R-73 from what we know.

What I know is that the rule of thumb of achieving a VLO platform is 80% shaping and 20% materials... Unless you're sugesting that the materials on the PAK FA are superior to those on the F22...
Sorry, but that is pure speculation. There is no real information that exists in the open source that gives such an accurate "rule of thumb." It is simple, you want information you need to wait for it.

What is important to note is that the F-22's body is composed of Titanium and Carbon Composites. So, the F-22 is not using dielectric components (dielectric composites) on it's airframe. If PAKFA ends up using dielectric composites, then why not? The PAKFA airframe will be far superior to anything flying today. Apart from that RAM also plays a part.
 
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p2prada

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i don't get the point of developing a aircraft under standards of fifth generation because
1. in one or two decades radars will develop enough to spot them
Yes. Technology exists that can make a F-22 look like a Godzilla on radar. But that level of technology will take "decades" to be practically implemented on a large scale in a military environment. Until that day, the F-22 will rule the skies.

Moore's law is simple. Superior processing will take care clutter problems that exist today and can be predicted, just like you did. But we never know what kind of materials will be available tomorrow and this aspect is unpredictable.

2.one f-22 is equal to 3 rafales in terms of cost
With today's technology, that one F-22 will still take out a 100 Rafales. Cost vs Capability.

3.the raptor is indeed a widow maker
Perfectly right if you are talking about the enemy.

i think we should forget the branding name fifth genration
We should forget guns, tanks, aircraft and ships too. Heck let's go back to WW I aircraft. We can easily get millions of such aircraft with the money we are spending on the military today. :rolleyes:

Fifth generation is proven to be far more effective than fourth generation. Fact.

Anything lesser = death.

You progress, not regress.
 

average american

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We have been throwing every weapon and combination of weapons by the best in the business in the western world and if the F22 is operated properly, nothing can touch it. Even when opposing pilots can see it they cant get a lock on it and that happens only when the F22 pilots allows it to be seen. I cant predict the future so I dont know what can be developed that can counter the F22 but so far there is nothing.
 

ersakthivel

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Well its the sixth operational version of the same stunt developed for over 30 years. Another stunt is the 120 D coated stealth missile. The USA exports a AIM-120C7 missiles for foreign military sales, what is interesting it contains a aircraft avoidance system for american aircraft. The range of the 120 D is a hundred or more miles, and the new version can use IF, Radar, or Optical. 80 percent of kills are now before the pilot even know they are detected, am sure that will increase. PK kill rate is now over 90 percent.
All these kill rates are not for evasive action taking ,ew ,contemproary jammer tech equiped aircraft.it is a falsehood to believe that once F-22 pilot fires his BVrs all he has to do is to go home to his base and chill out and all the enemy pilots have to do is to go to heaven.The net is littered with well researched studies documenting the folly of this above approach.

The L band arrays of future can easily jam the link 16 emitters and spoof the receivers of the AIm-120 in future, SO how doesthe f-22 solve this mundane 4th gen problem to get fantastic 5th gen kill rates of 1:infinity, any answers?

Btw how does F-22 find all the fourth gens without switching on the X band radars , and how will they getaway with being fired upon by radar homing missiles?

The rule of radars whether they are LPI or not is they have to transmit their waves for 300 kms to have a detection range of 150 kms.All 4th gens will recieve this tracking signals 300 km away.Do you still think they will do nothing?

Although a single L band asea cannot give lock to BVrs like xbands of today ,in future many Ll band asea radars used in combination in 4th gen fighters will give lock to BVRs of 4th gen via triangulation method.Don't forget that it will be used in combination with IRSt tech of tomorrow and multile emitters and receiver tech of tomorrrow.

So it is not so hunky dory for F-22 perhps. May be in the nineties when it was designed it could rule the world. Not now, There is a saying,"TIME FLIES",even faster than F-22 perhaps.
 
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ersakthivel

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The nemesis of F-22 will be stealth UCAVs doing duty as the eyes and ears of future 4th gen fleet. Since they will detect F-22 before F-22 can detect them ,The position of F-22 wont remain unknown forever.

Stealth UCAvs will always have lesser signature than big F-22 they will track either passively or actively.o they will always find the F-22 before F-22 can find them.Their tech will improve in future to counter 5th gens
 

ersakthivel

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The kill distance of 120 kms or so is always for an enemy aircraft that heads on stright knowing that a missile has been fired.They say a F-35 can detect a ballistic missile launch 1000 kms away. SO in tomorrow MAWs develop to 200 kms range, all the 4th gen has to do is to simply turn around once a missile is fired and the fanca 150 km killrange shrinhs th 40 kms. Once they head to lower altitudes it will shrink to 15 kms. It is a law of physics unalterable by any 5th gen.

So if 4th gen knows a missile is fired upon it from 200 kms away ,5th gen has zero kill rate for 4th gens even in theory .If stealth uCAVS fly a hundred kms infront of 5th gen all these secret misslie launches without even the knowledge of enemy aircraft is pipedream only.
 

average american

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All these kill rates are not for evasive action taking ,ew ,contemproary jammer tech equiped aircraft.it is a falsehood to believe that once F-22 pilot fires his BVrs all he has to do is to go home to his base and chill out and all the enemy pilots have to do is to go to heaven.The net is littered with well researched studies documenting the folly of this above approach.

The L band arrays of future can easily jam the link 16 emitters and spoof the receivers of the AIm-120 in future, SO how doesthe f-22 solve this mundane 4th gen problem to get fantastic 5th gen kill rates of 1:infinity, any answers?

Btw how does F-22 find all the fourth gens without switching on the X band radars , and how will they getaway with being fired upon by radar homing missiles?

The rule of radars whether they are LPI or not is they have to transmit their waves for 300 kms to have a detection range of 150 kms.All 4th gens will recieve this tracking signals 300 km away.Do you still think they will do nothing?

Although a single L band asea cannot give lock to BVrs like xbands of today ,in future many Ll band asea radars used in combination in 4th gen fighters will give lock to BVRs of 4th gen via triangulation method.Don't forget that it will be used in combination with IRSt tech of tomorrow and multile emitters and receiver tech of tomorrrow.

So it is not so hunky dory for F-22 perhps. May be in the nineties when it was designed it could rule the world. Not now, There is a saying,"TIME FLIES",even faster than F-22 perhaps.
The F-22 has battled (virtually in war games) and has an AMAZING record of taking out many enemies without them ever knowing the F-22 was in the area. One aspect that the F-22 shares with the F-35 (besides the LPI radar) is it's automatic LPI/LPD datalinks. In other words, a F-22 that is 100+ miles away can be using it's radar and feeding it's tracks to the much closer F-22 who is not using his radar. The target "may" get a hint of the F-22 100 miles away, but he will likely never see the one who actually shoots a missile at him.
 

p2prada

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The F-22 has battled (virtually in war games) and has an AMAZING record of taking out many enemies without them ever knowing the F-22 was in the area. One aspect that the F-22 shares with the F-35 (besides the LPI radar) is it's automatic LPI/LPD datalinks. In other words, a F-22 that is 100+ miles away can be using it's radar and feeding it's tracks to the much closer F-22 who is not using his radar. The target "may" get a hint of the F-22 100 miles away, but he will likely never see the one who actually shoots a missile at him.
The F-35 shares nothing with the F-22. The F-35 is far more advanced and the next F-22 upgrade will bring it to F-35 standards when it comes to networking. As of today, the F-22 is restricted to a network of 4 F-22s.

Rafale and the SH are far better networked than the F-22.

The guy you replied to posted a whole lot of nonsense anyway.
 

Agnostic_Indian

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The F-35 shares nothing with the F-22. The F-35 is far more advanced and the next F-22 upgrade will bring it to F-35 standards when it comes to networking. As of today, the F-22 is restricted to a network of 4 F-22s.

Rafale and the SH are far better networked than the F-22.

The guy you replied to posted a whole lot of nonsense anyway.
why is it restricted to 4 numbers only ? any link for the info ?
 

average american

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The reality of the advancements by the US in air technology is just difficult for most people to comphend. The T50 and PAK-FA are just more advanced designs of SU and Migs. The F22 and F35 are a revolution, the diffrance between night and day, the differance between the past and the future. Lockheed Martin F22 Raptor and F35 Lightning II - YouTube The F22 and F35 are not just designed to win an air battle but to dominate air space. This is an upgrade scheduled for 2014. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Link_16
 
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p2prada

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why is it restricted to 4 numbers only ? any link for the info ?
What the data link does...
F/A-22 Raptor tests intraflight datalink
"The IFDL is essentially an encrypted radio and wireless communications modem that allows Raptor pilots to covertly talk to and share information with each other without fear of being overheard by potential enemies," said Bret Luedke, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics Co.'s chief F/A-22 test pilot, one of two pilots involved in this IFDL test flight. "The IFDL helps preserve the aircraft's stealthiness without requiring pilots to maintain radio silence or to communicate via visual signals; IFDL is truly a step forward in aircraft interoperability." Part of the Communications, Navigation and Identification (CNI) suite provided by the Radio Systems division of Northrop Grumman Space Technology , the IFDL allows formations of Raptor pilots to share information provided by each other's on-board and off-board sensors such as target tracking information. This will help prevent weapons from being unnecessarily launched or dropped on targets already being engaged by another Raptor.
The reason is simple, they don't want many F-22s transmitting unnecessary signals which can compromise stealth. Even the MKI and EF-2000 had a link capable of networking with only 4 aircraft for similar reasons.

Back in 2009 there was a move to upgrade F-22's IFDL(Intra-flight data link) to the F-35's MADL(Multifunction Advanced data link), but plans were scuttled back in 2010. It was unnecessarily expensive. The F-22 can receive Link 16 information, but cannot transmit.

The reality of the advancements by the US in air technology is just difficult for most people to comphend. The T50 and PAK-FA are just more advanced designs of SU and Migs. The F22 and F35 are a revolution, the diffrance between night and day, the differance between the past and the future. Lockheed Martin F22 Raptor and F35 Lightning II - YouTube The F22 and F35 are not just designed to win an air battle but to dominate air space.
Now you are being plain silly. The only similarity the PAKFA bears to the Su-27 is it's bodylift design. Apart from that there is nothing on the PAKFA that makes it a Su-27.

You are trying to back a sedan into a wall repeatedly in order to turn it into a hatchback. World don't work that way.

The rest of what you said is mere speculation. There is a chance the FGFA will be far more advanced than the F-35, which is in turn more advanced than the F-22.

There was nothing great about the video you posted. Except stealth, you will find everything else in the Rafale. We are yet to see how advanced the Rafale F4 will turn out compared to F-35. If you look at the Norwegian air force study, except for stealth the Rafale was only 2% inferior to the F-35.

PAKFA is also being made to dominate the battlespace. It was the same when Su-27 came and it was more advanced than the F-15 in flight characteristics and electronics.

This is an upgrade scheduled for 2014. Link 16 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No it isn't. Link 16 is old technology. It is not good enough for the F-22. The F-22 may receive the MADL that's on the F-35.
 

average american

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Out of to 100 countries with technology rankings both India and Russia are in the bottom half, about the same as Mexico, I dont think any person that understands reality believe the Sukhoi PAK FA and FGFA will come close to compareing to the F22 and or F35. I expect its going to be about the same mess as the Admiral Gorshkov.
 

p2prada

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Out of to 100 countries with technology rankings both India and Russia are in the bottom half, about the same as Mexico, I dont think any person that understands reality believe the Sukhoi PAK FA and FGFA will come close to compareing to the F22 and or F35. I expect its going to be about the same mess as the Admiral Gorshkov.
Gee Ok. Bill Gates and Einstein came at the bottom of their schools too.

Only civilian research places India and Russia at the bottom. Military research is not calculated in it.

You can keep dreaming about Gorky after PAKFA has been phased out 40 or 50 years later.

Cheers.
 

average american

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Gee Ok. Bill Gates and Einstein came at the bottom of their schools too.

Only civilian research places India and Russia at the bottom. Military research is not calculated in it.

You can keep dreaming about Gorky after PAKFA has been phased out 40 or 50 years later.

Cheers.
You cant have one with out the other. Think about the fact the USA is operating a one ton vehicle on Mars right now, with all kinds of space age lasers and other technology. Threre is tremendous differance in the advanced technology in the F22 and F35 compared to the T10 and PAKFA.
 

p2prada

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You cant have one with out the other. Think about the fact the USA is operating a one ton vehicle on Mars right now, with all kinds of space age lasers and other technology. Threre is tremendous differance in the advanced technology in the F22 and F35 compared to the T10 and PAKFA.
You are clutching at strings here. We have Indian officials saying FGFA will be the most advanced aircraft and they said it after dumping the F-35 option in 2004.

Continue living in your Gorky dream. :lol:
 

average american

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The F35 has never been offered to India. I also doubt if you are naive enough to believe what India Officals are saying. Number 1 they are probably being bribed and they are not going to have a job if they tell you the PAKFA is a failure. India is being conned into being a cash cow to keep a lot of Russians employed.
 

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IAF decides on 144 Fifth Generation Fighters


New Delhi. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has decided the number of Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFAs) at 144, down from an earlier estimate of about 200.

Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne told India Strategic in an interview on IAF's 80th Anniversary that all these aircraft would be single seaters, the same which the Russian Air Force will have but some components like onboard computers and systems would be different as in the case of SU 30 MKIs.
Now designated PMF, or Perspective Multirole Fighter by Russia, the Indian aircraft would be made in India with Russian assistance, he said adding that discussions with the Russian Government are already on.
India's HAL, which will manufacture the Indian version of the aircraft, has already earmarked US$ six billion for initial expenses in joint development with Russia's United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), which will provide the super cruise engines and certain stealth technologies.
India and Russia had signed an agreement in this regard 21 Dec 2011, to set up a 50:50 joint venture on the lines of BrahMos Aerospace and share development work. HAL will be aided by DRDO.
Indian scientists are keen to pool in Research and Development (R&D) effort, and the agreement calls for joint development, particularly in design, guidance systems and onboard software. That means India will also have a proprietary share on Intellectual Property Rights (IPR).
The exact costing is yet to be worked out but inclusive of the development costs, the figure could be around USD 30 billion, according to HAL sources.
Notably, a figure of 200-plus of two-seater version for India was considered earlier with possible induction from 2017 with an initial lot from Russia. Development in that time frame however is not happening.
To cut down on the development costs and the timelines, IAF has plans to begin their induction from 2020 onwards, Air Chief Marshal Browne said.
Discussions with Russia are on to sign the first R&D phase, and the first prototype is likely to be delivered to India in 2014 followed by two more in 2017 and 2019. The series production then "will only be ordered based on the final configuration and performance of the third prototype."
The Air Chief observed that Speed, Reach, and Precision are the keywords for IAF's Transformation that is going on now.
He observed that various acquisition programmes of the Indian Air Force were going on as normal and so were the upgrade programmes. IAF had already spent around Rs 150,000 crores (approx $ 30 billion) in the last five years and that there was adequate budgetry support to execute its transformation programmes by 2027, when all the 42 combat squadrons sanctioned by the Government will be operational.
He reiterated that he expected the deal for 126 French Rafale Medium Multirole Combat Aircraft (MRCAs) to be finalised by March 2013. There are virtually daily meetings between the aircraft partners, Dassault, Thales and engine maker Snecma on the one side and IAF, HAL and Ministry of Defence representatives on the other.
On the legacy aircraft, he said that while the Soviet vintage IL 76 and AN 32 transport aircraft were already under upgrades to give them an extended life of 10 to 15 years, the tender to upgrade IAF's 100 odd Jaguar aircraft with new engines was about to be issued – likely by October end – to the US Honeywell.
IAF tenders for Combat, Heavy Lift helicopters and Midair Refuelers have already been opened over three weeks beginning mid-September. While the combat helicopter deal has gone to Boeing Apache AH-64D, because Russia withdrew its Mi 28 helicopter, the winner in the other two would be decided on the basis of lifecycle costs. Calculations were being done now, and it should take a couple of months in each case to declare the winner.
Ministry sources told India Strategic that the selection process sometimes got delayed as vendors either give incomplete answers or left some columns blank. As disputes over interpretation can arise, it is better to get clarifications right in the beginning.
Notably, all the aircraft deals with Soviet Union/ Russia so far have been on government to government basis, including for the FGFA. This is the first time that Russian aircraft – Mi 26 heavy lift vs. Boeing CH 47F Chinook, and Il 78 against Airbus MRTT – are pitted in global competitions in India, involving mandatory offsets. If the Russians win, they will have to do what is required by the DPP (Defence Procurement Policy) and invest 30 percent of the deal back in Indian defence industry.
The FGFA programme began in 2006 and MTA in 2007, and both these, as well as for the Indian Navy's 45 Mig 29 shipboard fighters, are exempt from offsets. The Mig 29 programme is part of the Gorshkov aircraft carrier's acquisition programme, signed well before the DPP came in place.
 

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