Sukhoi PAK FA

ersakthivel

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FGFA – Quantum leap for Indian aerospace | Russia & India Report

quotes from the same author from the above site.

India will be able to develop advanced stealth aircraft on its own. Not even America's leading partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter programme, such as Turkey or the UK, have access to such red hot technology. Instead of being a sidekick, India will be a joint partner in a leading military project.


Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to HAL. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. India will soon have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019.
Up to 250 of these aircraft will be inducted at an estimated cost of $35 billion.
IAF estimates that the fighter will cost 100 million dollars.Hope this estimate comes true.
Then the price approaches close to that of rafale,but if it is capped even at this level INDIANs won't complain,because it will be much superior to F-35.
 
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ersakthivel

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South Asia Defence & Strategic Reveiw
According to the above site's post the

the PAKFA RCS is expected to be 0.3-0.4 square meters which is comparable to F-22 "Raptor" (Su-27 and F-15 around 12 sq m).

I hope this statement is not true.But the writeup is so detailed outlining the history of PAKFA program.But an RCS of 0.3 to 0.4 meters? How could it be for a stealth aircraft?Will indian version atleast will be more stealth?Will DRDO and HAL ensure that?

It says 25 pecent of weight and 75 percent of surface of FGFA will be composites.Seems to be on the lower side.Also Critical engine tech like single crystal blades will not be given as only the outter casings and other non core engine components will be made here.Fair ,because no one is going to part with critical tech whether it is JV or outright purchase.

So not much expertise will be transfered to AMCA engine program ,as design is already frozen before our participation.So no amount of transefr of tech to KORAPUT engine facility will give us the single crystal blade tech despite being 50:50 partners ,"RAW MATERIAL" (all important single crystal blades and BLISK will come under raw material definition , ofcourse.)will be supplied from RUssia and "MOULDING AND MACHINIG WORK" done in INDIA.The article says it is a huge concession from Russian side!!!!!!!!!(with not enough money and commitment needed to start the program without IAF bailing it out!!!!!!!!!!!!).

So despite the hallalooba over this JV thing we are once again welding torch cutters and screw driver mechanics to RUSSIANS with 50:50 partnership only in economic terms not tech terms.So it is just the same old MIg-21 days of glorious joint venture(license produce in old term) production ,it seems.


But will we be eligible for the profit that can accrue from the foriegn sales of T-50? or not?Since we are 50:50 partner who will buy equal number of FGFA as the russians do, it is only fair to expect that.But mum is the word in official circles regarding this!!!!!!

the sukhoi design was seleced by RUSSIA in 1998 itself.The only reason IAF is approached by SUKHOI design bereua was the urgent requirement of 300 million dollars needed to finalize the design R&D and a huge commitment in numbers from IAF in 2005..It got what it wanted on it's own terms it seems.

.So no worthwhile contribution to AMCA engine program can be expected from FGFA whether it is JV or purchase.Only GTRE and DRDO have to slam their heads together for this critical tech it seems.

However it may reduce the cost. But IAF should stock up on excess number of single crystal blades and other core items that will come from Russia to last for the lifetime of plane in case any emergency arises,even if it costs more.
 
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Defcon 1

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Re: ADA Tejas (LCA) - III

SP's Aviation, October 2012, IAF modernisation :

I am a little confused about the squadron strength. I thought 270 sukhois will mean 15 squadrons(considering 18 planes/sqdrn). Can anyone please clarify this for me?
 

p2prada

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Re: ADA Tejas (LCA) - III

I am a little confused about the squadron strength. I thought 270 sukhois will mean 15 squadrons(considering 18 planes/sqdrn). Can anyone please clarify this for me?
16 operational + 2 trainers + 1 reserve (upto 3 since trainers also double up as operational fighters or reserves). Then there will be aircraft reserved for TACDE. Beyond that there may be aircraft for defence R&D. So, at worst 13 squadrons, at best 14 squadrons.

No, FGFA (indian version of PAK FA) will enter production in 2022.
PAKFA is expected to start production in 2020, it is still too early to say anything about PAKFA without official confirmation from IAF. I think IAF is hoping for inductions to happen anytime between 2020-22.
 

ersakthivel

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Re: ADA Tejas (LCA) - III

If enough R&D is done by the time PAKFA is inducted in 2025 ,we could very well induct fully stealth TEJAS mk-III with higher power engine and internal bomb bays.Tejas is now more mature platform to takeup this upgrade.

Being physically smaller it will have a third of PAKFA,s RCS in stealth version.If there is a need we can even add another engine to tejas,rather than wasting time on another complete new platform called AMCA.It has much better fuselage wing body blending leaving enough space for internal bomb bay integeration.It has no peeping features like canards or complex tail fins now.

The russians too modified the SUKHOI FOR PAKFA.So a prudent approach is to evolve the tejas design to stealth in mk-III with another engine.The chinese too are doing the same with J-20.IAF top brass in once again sending ADA on a long deep R&D voyage in the name of AMCA.

SO PAKFA wont be any significant path breaking platform in IAF stables.Some very detailed write up claims an RCS of 0.3 sq met for PAKFA,with exposed compressor blades .Not great for a 5th gen.TEJAS in mk-III can do much beter than that at much cheaper cost than both RAFALE and PAKFA.
 
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average american

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When you think about it, the PAK-FA and T 50 will be nothing more then targets against the F22. The F35 will be in production for several years befor the T50 and 10 by the time the PAK FA is in production and even that is optimistic date for the PAK FA to be in production, by then the normal problems with a new generation of planes will be worked out, dozens of upgrades will have taken place. Lets take a look at how things are in the real world in the Russian Air Force.

As a result of attrition of old aircraft combined with a lack of new acquisitions, the Russian Air Force currently has fewer than 500 combat airplanes that are capable of flight. From 1994 to 2003, the Russian Air Force did not receive any new combat airplanes. From 2004 to 2009, the Russia Air Force received only three new combat airplanes — one Tu-160 strategic bomber and two Su-34 strike aircraft.

This contrasts with General Zelin's claims that by 2020 fully 70 percent of Russia's aircraft will be new or modernized. New types of aircraft have faced numerous production delays. Sukhoi's PAK FA, the next generation of Russian strike aircraft, is a good example. Design on this aircraft began in 2002, with a goal of beginning test flights of a prototype aircraft in 2007. In 2007, it was announced that there would be a delay, but three prototype aircraft would be constructed and flying by 2009. As I write this in late October 2009, official estimates indicate that one prototype may be ready for flight in 2010, though continuing problems with engine design may lead to further postponements.

The Su-34 strike aircraft has faced similar problems. The introduction of this new aircraft, originally designed in the 1980s, has been mired in delays. The first test flight of the prototype took place back in 1990, but due to lack of financing and construction problems the first unit did not actually enter service until August 2007. Since then, mass production of the aircraft has been continually pushed back and few have actually entered active service. Given this history of construction delays, the goal of having 70 Su-34s in the air force by 2015 and 200 by 2020 appears more and more unrealistic.

Most of the numerous modernization programs for existing aircraft that have been mentioned by air force officials over the years have either never happened or have been ineffective in improving the aircrafts' capabilities. For example, the recent modernization of SU-24, SU-25, and SU-27 aircraft was mostly focused on new electronics, while retaining old armaments developed largely in the 1970s and not really suitable for combat against more advanced opponents. Furthermore, new electronics may not help if the aircraft in which they are placed have a limited lifespan due to age and suffering from limited maintenance and exposure to the elements during the 1990s.

All of these problems with modernization and procurement are the result of a broken and decaying military industrial complex. In the 1990s, the physical plant of most Russian defense industry enterprises decayed as the result of a lack of financing. At the same time, most of the best-qualified specialists retired, were laid off, or left for other fields with better economic prospects. Because of the lack of qualified personnel, defense enterprises have had difficulty keeping to production timelines and the end products have often had significant defects. This has been a particular problem with advanced weapons and weapon platforms, such as aircraft and combat ships. (The most well-publicized example is the Bulava SLBM, which has repeatedly failed test launches due to substandard components.)

The end result is that, much like the Russian Navy, the Russian Air Force is facing the likelihood of further decay in its capabilities, to the extent that its commander in chief is raising the possibility that in the near future it will not be able to fulfill the missions delegated to it by the General Staff.

http://russiamil.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/upgrading-the-air-force/
 
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average american

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By the way in the real world Russia is about 12-15 years behind the US in fighter aircraft design, but about on par with China. Not really that bad given that pretty much all development was suspended in the 1990s due to a lack of financing.12 to 15 years in aircraft design is really a long long time.
 

average american

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F-22 Rival Revised
Next Article → ETHIOPIA: The Kenyan Alliance
October 23, 2012: India is revising the terms of its deal to work with Russia to build a rival for the American F-22/F-35 "5th generation" fighters. India is insisting on building more of the new T-50 (or PAK-FA) in India, and outfit Indian T-50s with Indian or Western electronics and other equipment. As part of this change, India will buy fewer T-50s built in Russia. That order has been cut from 200 to 144. Russia says the T-50 will now enter service in 2019, but India is willing to delay its version an additional year or more in order to modify the "T-50I" to Indian specifications.
Earlier this year it was revealed that the T-50 has been delayed two years. It will now, barring more delays, be ready for mass production in 2019. India was not happy about this. India is picking up half the $6 billion dollar development cost and feels they are not having enough say in how the project proceeds. A two year delay means rising costs and the Russians have not announced any budget changes yet. Moreover, the $6 billion only covers work on the basic aircraft. All the avionics will be extra, and India is unclear of how much extra. That's apparently the main reason why India is now going to supply its own electronics, something the Russians are not happy about and are unable to prevent. India has had serious (and expensive) problems with Russian development cost projections before. India originally planned to buy 250 of the new T-50s, for about $100 million each. That number fell to 200 and now 144. An increasing number of Indians now see the T-50 possibly following the same cost trajectory as the F-22.

The T-50 prototype first flew two years ago and India will get its first flyable prototypes in two years. Russians and Indians have been doing a lot of tinkering with the design. While the T-50 is the stealthiest aircraft the Russians have, it is not nearly as stealthy as the F-22, or even the F-35 or B-2. The Russians are apparently going to emphasize maneuverability instead of stealth. India wants more stealth and would prefer a two-seat aircraft. There are also problems perfecting the engines for the T-50 and the defensive electronics. This puts the T-50 at a big disadvantage against the F-22 or F-35, which try to detect enemy aircraft at long distance, without being spotted, and then fire a radar guided missile (like AMRAAM). These problems are apparently the main reason for the two year delay.

The T-50 is a 34 ton fighter that is more maneuverable than the 33 ton Su-27, has much better electronics, and is stealthy. It can cruise at above the speed of sound. It also costs more than twice as much as the Su-27. Russia is promising a fighter with a life of 6,000 flight hours and engines good for 4,000 hours. Russia promises world-class avionics, plus a very pilot-friendly cockpit. The use of many thrusters and fly-by-wire will produce an aircraft even more maneuverable than earlier Su-30s (which have been extremely agile).

The T-50 is not meant to be a direct rival for the F-22 because the Russian aircraft is not as stealthy. But if the maneuverability and advanced electronics live up to the promises, the aircraft would be more than a match for every fighter out there except the F-22. If such a T-50 was sold for well under $100 million each there would be a lot of buyers. For the moment the T-50 and the Chinese J-20/30 are the only potential competitors for the F-22. Like the F-22 development expenses are increasing, and it looks like the T-50 will cost at least $120 million each (including a share of the development cost) but only if 500 or more are manufactured. Russia hopes to build as many as a thousand. Only 187 F-22s were built because of the high cost. American developers are now seeking to apply their stealth, and other technologies, to the development of combat UAVs. Thus by the time the T-50 enters service, in 7-10 years, it may already be made obsolete by cheaper, unmanned, stealthy fighters.
The latest American warplanes, the F-22 and F-35, are often called "5th generation" fighters. This leaves many wondering what the other generations were. The first generation of jet fighters was developed during and right after World War II (German Me-262, British Meteor, U.S. F-80, Russian MiG-15.) These aircraft were, even by the standards of the time, difficult to fly and unreliable (especially the engines). The 2nd generation (1950s) included more reliable, but still dangerous to operate, aircraft like the F-104 and MiG-21. The 3rd generation (1960s) included F-4 and MiG-23. The 4th generation (1970s) included F-16 and MiG-29. Each generation has been about twice as expensive (on average, in constant dollars) as the previous one. But each generation is also about twice as safe to fly and cheaper to operate. Naturally, each generation is more than twice as effective as the previous one. The Russians are still working on their 5th generation, although some of the derivatives of their Su-27 are at least generation 4.5. One of the reasons the Soviet Union collapsed was the realization that they could not afford to develop 5th generation warplanes to stay competitive with America. The Russians had a lot of interesting stuff on the drawing board and in development, but the bankruptcy of most of their military aviation industry during the 1990s has left them scrambling to put it back together ever since. At the moment, the Russians are thinking of making a run for the 6th generation warplanes, while will likely be unmanned and largely robotic.
 
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The Messiah

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By the way in the real world Russia is about 12-15 years behind the US in fighter aircraft design, but about on par with China. Not really that bad given that pretty much all development was suspended in the 1990s due to a lack of financing.12 to 15 years in aircraft design is really a long long time.
:pound: :pound:
 

ersakthivel

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Russia is far,far advanced than china, in engine tech and airframes,pity average american equates both.
right now it is not on par with US because of the financial crisis that plauged it from the 1990s. that is the real reason for the delay.
People expect anti-stealth detection techs to matures in 10 years time. So a little lesser stealth on PAKFA is not going to harm it's lethality that much.
There won't be any aerodynamic issues as it evolves from the agile SUKHOI design, while reducing the RCS which is the bane of SUKHOI design.
And the supposed edge of F-22 and F-35 is not gonna matter much as F-35 makers are recognizing this by including spectra like tech on F-35.If F-35 is fully stealth and non detectable why does it needs RAFLE's spectra like tech?

In this scenario even eurofighters and rafales and tejas will remain contemproary.

if cued by EW crafts PAKFAs and RAFAles and all other 4th gens can give a good account of themselves against stealth.

But indians have to install the latest avonics on it, and watch for it's final cost.I have a nagging suspicion that reason for the reduced order of 144 is related to cost ,only time will tell.

So all this talks of obsolete platforms is irrelevant now, as all manned fighters are going to be detected by unmanned UCAVs first.
But these stealth unmanned UCAvs too will be detected in future.
 
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SajeevJino

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When you think about it, the PAK-FA and T 50 will be nothing more then targets against the F22. The F35 will be in production for several years befor the T50 and 10 by the time the PAK FA is in production and even that is optimistic date for the PAK FA to be in production, by then the normal problems with a new generation of planes will be worked out, dozens of upgrades will have taken place. Lets take a look at how things are in the real world in the Russian Air Force.

As a result of attrition of old aircraft combined with a lack of new acquisitions, the Russian Air Force currently has fewer than 500 combat airplanes that are capable of flight. From 1994 to 2003, the Russian Air Force did not receive any new combat airplanes. From 2004 to 2009, the Russia Air Force received only three new combat airplanes — one Tu-160 strategic bomber and two Su-34 strike aircraft.

This contrasts with General Zelin's claims that by 2020 fully 70 percent of Russia's aircraft will be new or modernized. New types of aircraft have faced numerous production delays. Sukhoi's PAK FA, the next generation of Russian strike aircraft, is a good example. Design on this aircraft began in 2002, with a goal of beginning test flights of a prototype aircraft in 2007. In 2007, it was announced that there would be a delay, but three prototype aircraft would be constructed and flying by 2009. As I write this in late October 2009, official estimates indicate that one prototype may be ready for flight in 2010, though continuing problems with engine design may lead to further postponements.

The Su-34 strike aircraft has faced similar problems. The introduction of this new aircraft, originally designed in the 1980s, has been mired in delays. The first test flight of the prototype took place back in 1990, but due to lack of financing and construction problems the first unit did not actually enter service until August 2007. Since then, mass production of the aircraft has been continually pushed back and few have actually entered active service. Given this history of construction delays, the goal of having 70 Su-34s in the air force by 2015 and 200 by 2020 appears more and more unrealistic.

Most of the numerous modernization programs for existing aircraft that have been mentioned by air force officials over the years have either never happened or have been ineffective in improving the aircrafts' capabilities. For example, the recent modernization of SU-24, SU-25, and SU-27 aircraft was mostly focused on new electronics, while retaining old armaments developed largely in the 1970s and not really suitable for combat against more advanced opponents. Furthermore, new electronics may not help if the aircraft in which they are placed have a limited lifespan due to age and suffering from limited maintenance and exposure to the elements during the 1990s.

All of these problems with modernization and procurement are the result of a broken and decaying military industrial complex. In the 1990s, the physical plant of most Russian defense industry enterprises decayed as the result of a lack of financing. At the same time, most of the best-qualified specialists retired, were laid off, or left for other fields with better economic prospects. Because of the lack of qualified personnel, defense enterprises have had difficulty keeping to production timelines and the end products have often had significant defects. This has been a particular problem with advanced weapons and weapon platforms, such as aircraft and combat ships. (The most well-publicized example is the Bulava SLBM, which has repeatedly failed test launches due to substandard components.)
l]

If your Fighters fly near Russian Soii...The Russian SSBN is comes near your waters...If you try to strike with your F22 ...Nerpa Gives Deeper strike in US soil....


F 22 and PAK FA another Cold war
 

average american

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If your Fighters fly near Russian Soii...The Russian SSBN is comes near your waters...If you try to strike with your F22 ...Nerpa Gives Deeper strike in US soil....


F 22 and PAK FA another Cold war
Russia has 500 combat airplanes that are capable of flight, nothing that compares to the quality, support and pilots of US, the US Air Force and US Navy has over 3000. It would be up to Russia if they wanted a nuclear war, but Russia is a minor military power now days.

Total Aircraft

USA 18,234

Russia 2,749

http://www.globalfirepower.com/
 
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opesys

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By the way in the real world Russia is about 12-15 years behind the US in fighter aircraft design, but about on par with China. Not really that bad given that pretty much all development was suspended in the 1990s due to a lack of financing.12 to 15 years in aircraft design is really a long long time.
What happened when you were in Russia ? Did a Russian girl said no to you :D :troll:
 

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