Sukhoi PAK FA

[GromHellscream]

By the way in the real world Russia is about 12-15 years behind the US in fighter aircraft design, but about on par with China. Not really that bad given that pretty much all development was suspended in the 1990s due to a lack of financing.12 to 15 years in aircraft design is really a long long time.

What's your opinion about EU fighter producers?
Though western world are often referred as a unified concept, I am interested in the self estimation from yankees' view.

When speaking China, one and a half decade or so behind US is not too much beyond our own estimation and to some aspects, over optimistic.

 

[Austin]

AW&ST: Throttling Back

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/td110.jpg

 

[ersakthivel]

SOME INTERESTING INFO

COURTESY:EAGLE1

The 2020 induction estimate is too overoptimistic,even the IAF official in the interview has admitted it.
Will the russians give the all important ram stealth coat tech to hal? Or will HAL have to develop it also.

The HAL is yet to develop a fully functional turbo prop trainer, so any "DESIGN CHANGE",and"JV",claim is quite incredible as the aircraft is completely designed by the russians, what competence HAL has to change the design?

At best they will send a couple of prototypes to india in the name of test flights and ask DARE to fit the avionics like mission computers,rwr and some ecm in collabration with israelis or french,as any design changes on the airframe of FGFA will involve extensive wind tunnel testing and fly by wire software changes and flight control laws.

Will the hal implement serpentine air intake and hide the engine face fully?The IAF is very coy about the design changes to be done by hal,will IAF openly declare that HAL will implement serpentine intake and hide the engine face fully to improve it's stealth?

If it is done by HAl ,then there is some meaning in calling it as JV, and naming our version FGFA, otherwise it will be practically PAKFA by another name.

The HAL's competence in this area is a big zero. For LCA it is the ADA which developed the FCS, not the HAL. SO it is going to be just outright purchase,and glorified license production only.

The only purpose of calling it a JV is we have commited money in advance with out seeing the finished product, and how stealth it actually is and we are yet to know it's final costs.

If it is named as outright purchase the cost should be declared at the outset with specs. In the name of JV we are committed to buying the plane with unknown final RCs, and other specs, with no concrete production shedule.

How far the engine development effort has progressed. Will they finish the engine development in time.No one can hold the russians to any responsibilty on this count as they have not given any concrete engine specs in advance.The test bed that flew didnot have the new engine or had it been flying with the new engine?

Because from 1998 to 2011 the pakfa has just progressed to test bed for the technologies level flight only.How far the engine development has progressed?Considering the tortourous nature of the F-35 development will PAKFA finish all the remaining test flights and engine development within 7 years?

No specs of pakfa has been declared openly so tht it can be compared to the final product.why?

The IAF is busy slashing orders for FGFA. we can call it pakfa for all practical purpose, as there is no point in using two different names for the same product.

But according to ADA , the IAF is yet to send the revised ASR to AMCA program
When will they give the ASr and when will the AMCA start?

 

[average american]

What's your opinion about EU fighter producers?
Though western world are often referred as a unified concept, I am interested in the self estimation from yankees' view.

When speaking China, one and a half decade or so behind US is not too much beyond our own estimation and to some aspects, over optimistic.

EU is a good solid 4th Generation Fighter with sufficent support systems. What most people dont seem to appreciate is the F22 and F35 are revolutions in air warfare, you cant fight what you cant see. The Raptor will knock down the door -- taking out air defenses and radar sites -- and then the Joint Strike Fighter will launch strikes against ground targets. F-22 Raptor: A Revolution in Maintainability - YouTube

Though I expect the F22 and F35 by the early 2020s will be obsolete, there will be small much cheaper dedicated combat drones that will defeat F22 and F35.

There is more too the F22 and F35 then just their combat ability, theirs the stratgy of the F-22 and F-35 forceing all the other nations in the world to shift manpower, money, time, and planning in order to adapt to those two planes and what the USAF will do with them. By the time the world can deal with those two planes, we'll have incredible upgrades for them or a new aircraft that surpasses them. Any time you can force an potential enemy to indicision or to react rather then act you have a temendous advantage.

 

[SATISH]

The 2020 induction estimate is too overoptimistic,even the IAF official in the interview has admitted it.
Will the russians give the all important ram stealth coat tech to hal? Or will HAL have to develop it also.

The HAL is yet to develop a fully functional turbo prop trainer, so any "DESIGN CHANGE",and"JV",claim is quite incredible as the aircraft is completely designed by the russians, what competence HAL has to change the design?

At best they will send a couple of prototypes to india in the name of test flights and ask DARE to fit the avionics like mission computers,rwr and some ecm in collabration with israelis or french,as any design changes on the airframe of FGFA will involve extensive wind tunnel testing and fly by wire software changes and flight control laws.

Will the hal implement serpentine air intake and hide the engine face fully?The IAF is very coy about the design changes to be done by hal,will IAF openly declare that HAL will implement serpentine intake and hide the engine face fully to improve it's stealth?

If it is done by HAl ,then there is some meaning in calling it as JV, and naming our version FGFA, otherwise it will be practically PAKFA by another name.

The HAL's competence in this area is a big zero. For LCA it is the ADA which developed the FCS, not the HAL. SO it is going to be just outright purchase,and glorified license production only.

The only purpose of calling it a JV is we have commited money in advance with out seeing the finished product, and how stealth it actually is and we are yet to know it's final costs.

If it is named as outright purchase the cost should be declared at the outset with specs. In the name of JV we are committed to buying the plane with unknown final RCs, and other specs, with no concrete production shedule.

How far the engine development effort has progressed. Will they finish the engine development in time.No one can hold the russians to any responsibilty on this count as they have not given any concrete engine specs in advance.The test bed that flew didnot have the new engine or had it been flying with the new engine?

Because from 1998 to 2011 the pakfa has just progressed to test bed for the technologies level flight only.How far the engine development has progressed?Considering the tortourous nature of the F-35 development will PAKFA finish all the remaining test flights and engine development within 7 years?

No specs of pakfa has been declared openly so tht it can be compared to the final product.why?

The IAF is busy slashing orders for FGFA. we can call it pakfa for all practical purpose, as there is no point in using two different names for the same product.

But according to ADA , the IAF is yet to send the revised ASR to AMCA program
When will they give the ASr and when will the AMCA start?

Well one has to be in Saturn facility for research in Pad-Moskva to know about it.

The revised ASR has already reached ADA and i posted the ADA website update about the ASQR over here.

We already have RAM coating paint since 2005.

And Russians were always better than Americans when it came to aerodynamics because they focused more on aerodynamic physics and to negate that Americans went for see first to kill first philosophy.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...a-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-hal-29.html

It has been posted in this site a long time back.

 

[Drsomnath999]

The 2020 induction estimate is too overoptimistic,even the IAF official in the interview has admitted it.

WELL leave it on time as we or IAF officials dont have crystall ball in which they could see the future.But yes that too over optimistic

Will the russians give the all important ram stealth coat tech to hal? Or will HAL have to develop it also.

ans: both ,Russians would give if not all but they have to give some ToT on stealth coating & HAL can also contribute something for sure.
Well russians have accomplished some good achievement on stealth RAM coating , which can be seen from Su 35 & Mig 29k which reduces RCS quite drastically .India is also not far behind but could chip in something innovative

The HAL is yet to develop a fully functional turbo prop trainer, so any "DESIGN CHANGE",and"JV",claim is quite incredible as the aircraft is completely designed by the russians, what competence HAL has to change the design?

well my personal POV is india would incorporate some minor changes in design dont expect any thing drastic until & unless they dont develop twin seater planes of it's own with JV with Sukoi designers.
I feel single seater is better than twin seater for stealth & aerodyanamic reason & also it would further delay devlopemnt & induction phase into IAF

Will the hal implement serpentine air intake and hide the engine face fully?The IAF is very coy about the design changes to be done by hal,will IAF openly declare that HAL will implement serpentine intake and hide the engine face fully to improve it's stealth?

well that would involve tremendous design changes if they do ,well as i had posted earlier in this thread that russians are developing composite/non metal engines blades which reflects far less radar than metal engines blades
For more info read this thread
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...allic-applications-fighter-engines-pakfa.html

.So a wise move by russians by that they dont require any S shaped air intake for which they would have to place the
engines close to each other like F22 & J20 in the rear fuselarge which if have happened would have made impossible to have another weapon bay in the rear fuselarge of pakfa

How far the engine development effort has progressed. Will they finish the engine development in time.No one can hold the russians to any responsibilty on this count as they have not given any concrete engine specs in advance.The test bed that flew didnot have the new engine or had it been flying with the new engine?

well my friend i think ur too over pessimistic .engine development is on track mate .U see to design a 5th gen jet engine with high thrust ,supercruise & with TVC is not an easy thing ,even the chinese are having a hell of a time .So be patient & wait for atleast 5th or 6th protype model of pak fa

The IAF is busy slashing orders for FGFA. we can call it pakfa for all practical purpose, as there is no point in using two different names for the same product

thats dumb opinion even if india is going to get the same PAK-FA model but obviously it is going to be customed made for india only with it's own specification & thats why it has to be called FGFA in indian made PAK-FA

But according to ADA , the IAF is yet to send the revised ASR to AMCA program

When will they give the ASr and when will the AMCA start?

well PAK-FA/ FGFA eventually would give the platform or learning experience to build a 5th gen fighter of it's own.Dont think designing a 5th gen fighter is a walk in the park job

 

[average american]

Russia concentrates on aerodynamics because of several reasons. 1. The obsolete concept of dog fighting. 2. It sells planes. 3. They dont have six generations of operational stealth planes experience to build truly stealth planes. 4. They dont have the billions it takes to invent, develope and test true stealth technology. What is truly going to be interesting is the behavior of enemy pilots in combat against stealth planes. Pilots are human beings, they dont want to die, how willing are they going to be going up against planes they cant see and could be anywhere in the sky. Are they going to run, eject from their aircraft as soon as they hear a threat receiver go off, be trigger happy and shoot down their own planes.

 

[average american]

I think India realizes the Sukhoi PAK FA and FGFA are in trouble, they just have too much invested in terms of money, training, pilots aircraft support, jobs, poltical capital especially,and bribes to pull the plug. Plus you have the fact that India just does not know what it should do.

 

[p2prada]

AMCA's design phase started a long time ago. I guess July. It will end in December 2013 if a regular timetable is followed. After that is the prototype building stage where 2 or 3 tech demonstrators or prototypes will be built over 4 years. So, with a 2017 first flight date we will see 9 years of flight testing. So, first IOC induction in 2024-25 followed by FOC in 2026-27. That is the current plan without looking at delays. Minimum 16 years.

PAKFA's plan is much more compressed. 2003/04-07 design phase. 2007-09 constructing prototypes. 2010 first flight, followed by 4-5 years of flight testing until induction. That's 12-13 years because the flight testing period is significantly lower. Since it is a heavy aircraft it can stay in the air for long periods of time, 4+ hours as compared to smaller aircraft like AMCA, 1 to 2 hours. While not for all tests, the extra air time helps reduce the number of total flights. Nevertheless, an aircraft like AMCA needs 4000 hours of flight tests according to ADA and PAKFA needs 5000 hours according to Sukhoi/HAL.

Similarly, FGFA's design phase has been happening since quite sometime. MoU was signed in 2005. Decision was made in 2008. Contract was signed for preliminary design in Dec, 2010 and finished in June or July this year. Design stage is supposedly in the process of starting or has started already. First flight in 2014 and induction date is still not clear. It all depends on when HAL plans to start manufacturing. So, that's anywhere between 2019 and 2022. Minimum 10 years.

 

[ersakthivel]

WELL leave it on time as we or IAF officials dont have crystall ball in which they could see the future.But yes that too over optimistic


ans: both ,Russians would give if not all but they have to give some ToT on stealth coating & HAL can also contribute something for sure.
Well russians have accomplished some good achievement on stealth RAM coating , which can be seen from Su 35 & Mig 29k which reduces RCS quite drastically .India is also not far behind but could chip in something innovative


well my personal POV is india would incorporate some minor changes in design dont expect any thing drastic until & unless they dont develop twin seater planes of it's own with JV with Sukoi designers.
I feel single seater is better than twin seater for stealth & aerodyanamic reason & also it would further delay devlopemnt & induction phase into IAF


well that would involve tremendous design changes if they do ,well as i had posted earlier in this thread that russians are developing composite/non metal engines blades which reflects far less radar than metal engines blades
For more info read this thread
http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...allic-applications-fighter-engines-pakfa.html

.So a wise move by russians by that they dont require any S shaped air intake for which they would have to place the
engines close to each other like F22 & J20 in the rear fuselarge which if have happened would have made impossible to have another weapon bay in the rear fuselarge of pakfa


well my friend i think ur too over pessimistic .engine development is on track mate .U see to design a 5th gen jet engine with high thrust ,supercruise & with TVC is not an easy thing ,even the chinese are having a hell of a time .So be patient & wait for atleast 5th or 6th protype model of pak fa


thats dumb opinion even if india is going to get the same PAK-FA model but obviously it is going to be customed made for india only with it's own specification & thats why it has to be called FGFA in indian made PAK-FA

What are the exact changes in indian FGFA.is it going to be avionics alone or anything else?

well PAK-FA/ FGFA eventually would give the platform or learning experience to build a 5th gen fighter of it's own.Dont think designing a 5th gen fighter is a walk in the park job

The problem is if you cannot give an ASR in 5 years and change tentative ASRs 3 times,when will the program start?
The IAF will accept whatever pakfa specs the russains will give.But when it comes to ADA ,it is not even finalising the ASR.

There must be a joint committee of eminent scientists and airwarfare experts, consulting among themselves and freezing the ASR once for all,considering the technological level of the county,so design must start someday.


That's what I meant.
Other people develop aircraft according to their tech limitation.
Look russian PAKFA won't be as stealthy and wont have as advanced avionics as F-22.If the russian airforce failed to admit it and insisted on same tech level of F-22,can PAKFA ever see the light of the day?

The chinese have unvieled two stealth models in 10 years.
Surely chinese J-20 will not be on the same level of F-22 or PAKFA.
If their airforce dilly dallied in finalizing ASr for 5 years insisting on higher powered engine, better avionics, would J-20 have flown?

What is the IAF doing.They are fighting with GTRE-SNECMA K-10 engine JV?
But they know china is designing 2 stealth aircrafts for the past 10 years, still no ASR is given.

I just wanted to know what is the reason behind it?Surely it is not top secret.
Either confusion or is it so hard?
We are changing 3 ASrs and 3 models in 3 years,if it is beyond the ability of IAF to finalize asr then they will seek expert help in doing that.

 

[ersakthivel]

AMCA's design phase started a long time ago. I guess July. It will end in December 2013 if a regular timetable is followed. After that is the prototype building stage where 2 or 3 tech demonstrators or prototypes will be built over 4 years. So, with a 2017 first flight date we will see 9 years of flight testing. So, first IOC induction in 2024-25 followed by FOC in 2026-27. That is the current plan without looking at delays. Minimum 16 years.

PAKFA's plan is much more compressed. 2003/04-07 design phase. 2007-09 constructing prototypes. 2010 first flight, followed by 4-5 years of flight testing until induction. That's 12-13 years because the flight testing period is significantly lower. Since it is a heavy aircraft it can stay in the air for long periods of time, 4+ hours as compared to smaller aircraft like AMCA, 1 to 2 hours. While not for all tests, the extra air time helps reduce the number of total flights. Nevertheless, an aircraft like AMCA needs 4000 hours of flight tests according to ADA and PAKFA needs 5000 hours according to Sukhoi/HAL.

Similarly, FGFA's design phase has been happening since quite sometime. MoU was signed in 2005. Decision was made in 2008. Contract was signed for preliminary design in Dec, 2010 and finished in June or July this year. Design stage is supposedly in the process of starting or has started already. First flight in 2014 and induction date is still not clear. It all depends on when HAL plans to start manufacturing. So, that's anywhere between 2019 and 2022. Minimum 10 years.

what is the final ASR of AMCA?

 

[ersakthivel]

Well one has to be in Saturn facility for research in Pad-Moskva to know about it.

The revised ASR has already reached ADA and i posted the ADA website update about the ASQR over here.

We already have RAM coating paint since 2005.

And Russians were always better than Americans when it came to aerodynamics because they focused more on aerodynamic physics and to negate that Americans went for see first to kill first philosophy.

http://defenceforumindia.com/forum/...a-advanced-medium-combat-aircraft-hal-29.html

It has been posted in this site a long time back.

he AMCA will be designed with a very small radar cross-section and will also feature serpentine shaped air-intakes, internal weapons and the use of composites and other materials.[6]
It will be a twin-engined design using the GTX Kaveri engine with thrust vectoring with the possibility of giving the aircraft supercruise capabilities.[2] Talks on a joint venture with France for development of Kaveri engine is on progress.[7] As part of the multidisciplinary design optimisation (MDO) currently on for the AMCA—wind-tunnel testing model of the MCA airframe was seen at Aero-India 2009.[8] —that design-based stealth features will include further optimised airframe shaping, edge matching, body conforming antennae and a low IR signature through nozzle design, engine bay cooling and work on reduced exhaust temperature.[9]
As well as advanced sensors the aircraft will be equipped with missiles like DRDO Astra and other advanced missiles, stand-off weapons and precision weapons.[6] The aircraft will have the capability to deploy Precision Guided Munitions. The aircraft will feature extended detection range and targeting range with the ability to release weapons at supersonic speeds. The aircraft's avionics suite will include AESA radar, IRST and appropriate electronic warfare systems and all aspect missile warning suite.[10]
By August 2011, the aircraft was in its preliminary design phase. As of July 2012, with aerodynamic design optimisation near complete, the AMCA's broad specifications are final. The aicraft will have a weight of 16-18 tonnes [16-18 tons with 2-tons of internal weapons and four-tonnes of internal fuel with a combat ceiling of 15-km, max speed of 1.8-Mach at 11-km.[9] The final design is expected to be shown to the air force by 2012, after which full scale development on the aircraft may start.[

is this the ASR or what is the final ASR?
If you have links are the specs please post.
thanks.

 

[average american]

If the PAK FA is truly a to be a 5th generation plane, then its going to be way to complicated for two countries to develope and build jointly, especially as out of 100 countreis the technology of Russia and India is ranked in the bottom half, even if it was in the top ten I doubt if it could even be done.

List of countries by research and development spending - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[p2prada]

We already have RAM coating paint since 2005.

Our Mig-21s have had RAM since 1998. I suppose you are talking about out own though, right?

And Russians were always better than Americans when it came to aerodynamics because they focused more on aerodynamic physics and to negate that Americans went for see first to kill first philosophy.

I don't think that's perfectly right. The Russians were always focused more on aerodynamics, but at the same time they wanted first look first kill capability too. The first requirement for the radar that would have gone on the Su-27 was better than APG-63 on F-15. It just did not happen. They had to reduce requirements drastically due to technological hurdles and settled for very less. The first plan was to have electronic scanning in elevation and mech scanning in azimuth. It was abandoned for a cassegrain array that was on the Mig-29A. They could not even achieve multitarget capability until N001V came out. It was unfortunate, but the Russians planned on fielding a very advanced aircraft as compared to the F-15.

OTOH the Mig-31s Zaslon achieved even sooner than what was required on the initial radar for Su-27. But they obviously couldn't put that on the Su-27. The smaller array and weight made things much more difficult.

It is just that their electronics, or should I say, radar wasn't as good. After the breakup they did not have the money to start a new 5th gen project until after a decade was over.

 

[Defcon 1]

AMCA's design phase started a long time ago. I guess July. It will end in December 2013 if a regular timetable is followed. After that is the prototype building stage where 2 or 3 tech demonstrators or prototypes will be built over 4 years. So, with a 2017 first flight date we will see 9 years of flight testing. So, first IOC induction in 2024-25 followed by FOC in 2026-27. That is the current plan without looking at delays. Minimum 16 years.

PAKFA's plan is much more compressed. 2003/04-07 design phase. 2007-09 constructing prototypes. 2010 first flight, followed by 4-5 years of flight testing until induction. That's 12-13 years because the flight testing period is significantly lower. Since it is a heavy aircraft it can stay in the air for long periods of time, 4+ hours as compared to smaller aircraft like AMCA, 1 to 2 hours. While not for all tests, the extra air time helps reduce the number of total flights. Nevertheless, an aircraft like AMCA needs 4000 hours of flight tests according to ADA and PAKFA needs 5000 hours according to Sukhoi/HAL.

Similarly, FGFA's design phase has been happening since quite sometime. MoU was signed in 2005. Decision was made in 2008. Contract was signed for preliminary design in Dec, 2010 and finished in June or July this year. Design stage is supposedly in the process of starting or has started already. First flight in 2014 and induction date is still not clear. It all depends on when HAL plans to start manufacturing. So, that's anywhere between 2019 and 2022. Minimum 10 years.

AMCA's feasibility study started at around this time last year. It was supposed to go on for 18 months. Do you have any source saying that its design phase has already started.

 

[ersakthivel]

If the empty weight is 16 to 18 tons ,Do we have the engine tech to give it better TWR than F-35.
F-35 has empty weight of 13 tons.It's engine produce 190 Kn thrust.
If AMCA has 16 to 18 tons empty weight it should have atleast 260 kns of thrust to be counted as contemproary of F-35.
Question is do we have any realistic time frame for developing a single engine with 130 kn thrust with same thrust to weight ratio of the F-35 engine?
If this parameter is not met then there will be trouble.
Even F-35 is called massively underpowered with Thrust to weight ratio of 1.06.
Surely for a 16 to 18 ton AMCA to have a thrust to weight ratio of F-35 means how much engine thrust needed?

 

[ersakthivel]

AMCA's feasibility study started at around this time last year. It was supposed to go on for 18 months. Do you have any source saying that its design phase has already started.

final ASr has been given only on 2011 august.So there is no way much of the design work can be completed by now.You are right.

 

[ersakthivel]

AMCA's feasibility study started at around this time last year. It was supposed to go on for 18 months. Do you have any source saying that its design phase has already started.

final ASr has been given only on 2011 august.So there is no way much of the design work can be completed by now.You are right.

If there has been any design work fdone for the past three years it would have been irrelevant now considering the final asr is for 16 to 18 tons.
First a 25 ton empty weight figure was floating around.
Then 20 ton figure.
Then 16 to 18 ton figure.
Do you know the final ASR,If you have please post.
As it is I cannot find it in any site.
What is the engine thrust figure for AMCA?
The grapewine is things like this has not been finalized till now.

 

[ersakthivel]

Russia concentrates on aerodynamics because of several reasons. 1. The obsolete concept of dog fighting. 2. It sells planes. 3. They dont have six generations of operational stealth planes experience to build truly stealth planes. 4. They dont have the billions it takes to invent, develope and test true stealth technology. What is truly going to be interesting is the behavior of enemy pilots in combat against stealth planes. Pilots are human beings, they dont want to die, how willing are they going to be going up against planes they cant see and could be anywhere in the sky. Are they going to run, eject from their aircraft as soon as they hear a threat receiver go off, be trigger happy and shoot down their own planes.

If no x band radar BVR lock can be obtained on the 5th gens,then what is the point of having superior tech in avionics?
Ultimately it seems however advanced your avionics ,you cannot get a lock on the enemy 5th gen.
What is your thoughts on this.
Then only dog fights are possible it seems.
Even for that ,a defending 5th gen has to find enemy 5th gen while wandering at random,Is it real?
Then don't you see russian adherence to superior kinematics and dogfighting skills coming to the centerstage again?

 

[ersakthivel]

Kolkata varsity in DRDO collab - Times Of India

So finally there is a talk of developing 130 kn engine for AMCA.
Is it realistically possible?

Or should we restrict ourself to F-35 weight calss of 13 tons ,based on aerodynamics of TEJAS ,and develop it with 2X90 kn engines,which is quite realistic considering the proposed JV with SNECMA.

Which will be surely achievable in a decade and will be far more equal enough with atleast F-35 like specs.
or atleast we can develop it as tejas MK-III as a fall back,in case we fail to achieve 130 kn engine thrust.

Aince chinese are developing 3 5th gen prototypes at the same time, it ia much more prudent for us to have af all back in case
if delays are encountered in the development of 130 kn engines.

Sure it can have a much better specs than F-35 if it doesnot have to lug a MTOW of 20 + tons.