Su-30 MKI

[trackwhack]

It's good to watch a pro-French Frenchman and a Pro-Russian Indian duking it out ...

keep at it guys ..

all we are missing is a pro-American Indian to join the melee and pedal some F35. so drops in ace.

 

[ace009]

Are you kidding me? Me peddling the F-35 instead of the Su-30 MKI? All I have ever wanted the F-35 was for Strategic Forces (for which it has been developed) and the Indian Navy (again, so designed).
But you, Mr Indian who works for the richest Americans and hates USA, must pick a side too - or just sticking your nose in for a quick skirmish?

Man I seem to have picked fights with so many people -
Tshering, Trackwhack, P2Prada, Armand, DrSomnath just to mention a few ....


Maybe the Mods should ban me or something!

 

[Mad Indian]

Guys i have a doubt, If during the Garud exercises, the French came on top with rafales and Mirages and we dint, despite the non use of Spectra EW suit, how is that Su 30 Mki better than Rafale... just curious....!!!! some one please provide an answer...

 

[Mad Indian]

Are you kidding me? Me peddling the F-35 instead of the Su-30 MKI? All I have ever wanted the F-35 was for Strategic Forces (for which it has been developed) and the Indian Navy (again, so designed).
But you, Mr Indian who works for the richest Americans and hates USA, must pick a side too - or just sticking your nose in for a quick skirmish?

Man I seem to have picked fights with so many people -
Tshering, Trackwhack, P2Prada, Armand, DrSomnath just to mention a few ....


Maybe the Mods should ban me or something!

Dude, relax he is mentioning Jay Atl not you....

 

[Armand2REP]

Guys i have a doubt, If during the Garud exercises, the French came on top with rafales and Mirages and we dint, despite the non use of Spectra EW suit, how is that Su 30 Mki better than Rafale... just curious....!!!! some one please provide an answer...

It isn't... the Katrina is superior in every way.

 

[Mad Indian]

It isn't... the Katrina is superior in every way.

dont give a fan boy answer... India is gonna Use the MKI as the Air superiority fighter and Rafa as the A2G fighter.... You know that too!!!! So honest answer please

 

[ace009]

Read it again. He mentioned my name in there.
Kidding aside, Su-30 MKIs suite the mission profiles for IAF, longer patrols, working as a mini AWACS, huge weapons loadout etc. Rafales are better with q
uick reactions, lower RCS etc, so they will be used for SEAD and strikes.

Dude, relax he is mentioning Jay Atl not you....

 

[Mad Indian]

Read it again. He mentioned my name in there.
Kidding aside, Su-30 MKIs suite the mission profiles for IAF, longer patrols, working as a mini AWACS, huge weapons loadout etc. Rafales are better with q
uick reactions, lower RCS etc, so they will be used for SEAD and strikes.

oops....Sry

But you dint answer my question...!!!!!

I asked how come Rafas came on top in the A2A excercise in Garud with France against Mkis when we all claim Mki is the superior one vis a vis Rafa in A2A mode...

PS: i know Rafa is for Strike and SEAD and MKI for Air dominance... thats what pzzles me if in Garud exercise , French with Rafas and Mirages Came on top against ,IAF's SU 30 MKIs and Mirage 2000 ?????

 

[Armand2REP]

dont give a fan boy answer... India is gonna Use the MKI as the Air superiority fighter and Rafa as the A2G fighter.... You know that too!!!! So honest answer please

T/W at 50% fuel:
Su-30MKI = 1.07
Rafale = 1.20

Radar peak pwr:
N011M = 4-5 kW
RBE2 AA = 13-14 kW

Targets tracked/engaged
N011M = 15/4
RBE2 AA = 40/8

Low Probability of Intercept:
N011M = NO
RBE2 AA = YES

Hardpoints/Payload:
Su-30MKI = 12/8000kg
Rafale = 14/9500kg

Radar Cross Section:
Su-30MKI = 25m^2
Rafale = 0.3m^2

Integrated Solid State Defence Suite:
Su-30MKI = NO
Rafale = YES

Common data link:
Su-30MKI = NO
Rafale = YES

IRST:
Su-30MKI = 2nd gen
Rafale = 3rd gen

360 turn rate:
Su-30MKI = 23s
Rafale = 18s

Angle of Attack:
Su-30MKI = 80°
Rafale = 40°

Combat Radius:
Su-30MKI = 1500km
Rafale = 1825km

 

[asianobserve]

(cancelled)

 

[ace009]

Firstly, who said that the Rafale won against the MKI in Garud? Where did this come out in? Can you site the report? AFAIK, no one vs one dogfights are done in any air exercise. The simulated missions are more complex and more "mixed" - this is done by real professionals, not fanboys like us.

Secondly, even if such one vs one dogfight is held, the results from one or two face offs is never conclusive. Which is why no one will talk about it in the airforces.

As for the specs, few corrections for Armand ...

T/W at 50% fuel:
Su-30MKI = 1.1
Rafale = 1.20

Radar peak pwr:
N011M = 4-5 kW
RBE2 AA = 13-14 kW (where did you find that number? I thought that was for the RBE2 AESA, not the current RBE2 PESA radar)

Targets tracked/engaged
N011M = 15/4
RBE2 AA = 40/8

Low Probability of Intercept:
N011M = NO
RBE2 AA = YES

Hardpoints/Payload:
Su-30MKI = 12/8000kg
Rafale = 14/9500kg (hmmm - probably 10 A2A missiles for both- the hardpoints also carry the targeting pods, the spectra suite etc - right?)

Radar Cross Section:
Su-30MKI = 25m^2 - AFAIK it is 5 m^2
Rafale = 0.3m^2

Integrated Solid State Defence Suite:
Su-30MKI = NO
Rafale = YES

Common data link:
Su-30MKI = NO
Rafale = YES

IRST:
Su-30MKI = 2nd gen
Rafale = 3rd gen

360 turn rate:
Su-30MKI = 23s
Rafale = 18s

Angle of Attack:
Su-30MKI = 80°
Rafale = 40°

Combat Radius:
Su-30MKI = 1500km
Rafale = 1825km

You forgot to mention

speed - the MKI does have an edge here ... Mach 2 vs Mach 1.8

Service ceiling - the MKI flies about half a km higher.

Thrust vectoring - which MKI has and Rafale does not.

 

[p2prada]

It's good to watch a pro-French Frenchman and a Pro-Russian Indian duking it out ...

keep at it guys ..

I have never been Pro-Russian. I have never been Pro-American or Pro-French. I am and will always be Pro-Indian.

I criticize Indian, Russian, American and French weapons whenever required.

 

[p2prada]

Radar peak pwr:
N011M = 4-5 kW
RBE2 AA = 13-14 kW

Bars = 7KW(known), 10KW(unknown)
RBE = Not that much. It should be at the same power rating as the Bars.

Low Probability of Intercept:
N011M = NO
RBE2 AA = YES

I would just say superior and inferior instead of yes and no. All modern radars have programs to achieve LPI. Bars received an update only in 2008.

Common data link:
Su-30MKI = NO
Rafale = YES

This is 2012. So, yes for both.

360 turn rate:
Su-30MKI = 23s
Rafale = 18s

Don't think it is accurate.

Angle of Attack:
Su-30MKI = 80°
Rafale = 40°

Rafale = 45°
MKI = Unlimited.
Su-30 = 80°

Combat Radius:
Su-30MKI = 1500km
Rafale = 1825km

MKI advantage is it is internal.

Guys i have a doubt, If during the Garud exercises, the French came on top with rafales and Mirages and we dint, despite the non use of Spectra EW suit, how is that Su 30 Mki better than Rafale... just curious....!!!! some one please provide an answer...

The French exercise was scripted. It used French RoE with French techniques and French wingmen for both India and Singapore. It was a learning experience here. Specswise the Rafale is superior to the MKI because it is a much more modern aircraft. Other than that both versions have similar capability. Rafale, EF, F-15 and Su-30 have more or less similar capability in short and long ranges. The only drawback is that Rafale will have to sacrifice T/W for range(drop tanks) while MKI is less constrained. Without EW the MKI is a sitting duck with it's large RCS while the Rafale isn't.

The Super MKI will take the lead.

 

[SPIEZ]

T/W at 50% fuel:
Su-30MKI = 1.07
Rafale = 1.20

Radar peak pwr:
N011M = 4-5 kW
RBE2 AA = 13-14 kW

I have a doubt here. The power rating cannot be used as example for efficiency of the the Radars.

Think of it, the Rafale works @ 13~14KW, where it can do according to your stats cab

Targets tracked/engaged
N011M = 15/4
RBE2 AA = 40/8

but the MKI radar can do less with very much lesser power. Also consider this if the detection range(I don't know what other parameters are considered) for both the radars is the same, thanitis the problem with the S/W and not the radar itself. Therefore if the radar is updated on the MKI, it will be able to do the same @ lower power making it more efficient.

I hope you are getting what I m saying.

 

[ace009]

I have never been Pro-Russian. I have never been Pro-American or Pro-French. I am and will always be Pro-Indian.

I criticize Indian, Russian, American and French weapons whenever required.

Where and when did you criticize Russians?

The Bars rada is supposed to be oneof the best PESA radars out there. RBE 2 is a good radar too. I wonder how they match up in combat cenarios. Any actual data?

 

[Vladimir79]

I have a doubt here. The power rating cannot be used as example for efficiency of the the Radars.

Think of it, the Rafale works @ 13~14KW, where it can do according to your stats cab

The RBE2 AA is rated at 10kW, 13w*T/R modules. It was guessed at 13kW when people thought it had 1000 modules, but it was less. The N011M is 5kW so the Rafale AFAR is twice as powerful. The T/W at 50% fuel is correct. Rafale is a much lighter aircraft.

but the MKI radar can do less with very much lesser power. Also consider this if the detection range(I don't know what other parameters are considered) for both the radars is the same, thanitis the problem with the S/W and not the radar itself. Therefore if the radar is updated on the MKI, it will be able to do the same @ lower power making it more efficient.

You are ignoring the difference between a single tasked PESA to a multi-tasking AFAR radar. The pilot has to switch modes on a PESA one at a time while AFAR radars have enough power and modules to run all tasks at once. The higher scanning rate is worlds apart in situational awareness and accuracy.

 

[SPIEZ]

The RBE2 AA is rated at 10kW, 13w*T/R modules. It was guessed at 13kW when people thought it had 1000 modules, but it was less. The N011M is 5kW so the Rafale AFAR is twice as powerful. The T/W at 50% fuel is correct. Rafale is a much lighter aircraft.

You are ignoring the difference between a single tasked PESA to a multi-tasking AFAR radar. The pilot has to switch modes on a PESA one at a time while AFAR radars have enough power and modules to run all tasks at once. The higher scanning rate is worlds apart in situational awareness and accuracy.

Further elaboration on the radars please.

 

[Vladimir79]

I have never been Pro-Russian. I have never been Pro-American or Pro-French. I am and will always be Pro-Indian.

You are as pro-Russian as they come, more than me.

 

[sayareakd]

any idea if Su 30 MKI can be upgraded with Al-41FU super cruise engine.

In 2004 an Su-27M/Su-35 Flanker E was flown with the prototype AL-41F1, a derated variant of the baseline AL-41F, intended to increase the performance of the Flanker across all flgiht regimes, and enhance dry supersonic thrust

Su-27M flies with power upgrade

 

[Vladimir79]

Further elaboration on the radars please.

PESA radars only have one transmit element and phase shifters, there are no active elements so the power is routed into one task. AFAR radars have a thousand smaller active elements which can be multi-tasked. If you are in MKI you can scan the sky, but nothing else while doing it. You have to switch to ground, or to sea. You lose your other pictures while you switch losing SA of the battle-space. A 1000 module AFAR radar can do all three at once, put 500 modules into air, 250 into ground and 250 into sea. They require different frequencies and pulse rates which is why a PESA can only do one at a time. I am not sure if A/A covers weather mapping but if it doesn't, it will really screw up a PESA SA. It means the Rafale can do all missions at once while MKI has to task fighters to certain modes to get a complete picture. That is why MKI is only tasked to air superiority, it is too many resources to cover the whole spectrum.