Su-30 MKI

[Galaxy]

PM to raise Su-30 MKI engine failure with Russia - Hindustan Times

 

[Galaxy]

[h=1]Flaws in Russian design or holes in HAL quality?[/h]http://newindianexpress.com/

 

[bhramos]

Indian Air Force Opts for More Su-30MKI, Despite Problems | Defense Update

 

[amitkriit]

Russia has duped us once again

 

[bhramos]

Russia has duped us once again

this is noting to do with Russia, may be its HAL Quality or we are stressing it to over flying hours...

 

[ace009]

Actually it might be a combination of the two. Russian engineering design is never meant to reach manufacturing perfection. Not to mention they never try to build something to last forever - they keep room for "improvement" in the next generation - depending upon what problems they encountered in the last war/ battle. The upside is lower development costs (or spread over a longer timeframe). The downside is there is always some significant deficiency waiting to be exposed.
Added to that any manufacturing level quality issues at HAL (which I will NOT be surprised to hear about), will be a recipe for disaster. HAL is still steeped in the public sector manufacturing "good enough" mindset - and not the private sector "six-sigma" type mindset.
Sadly most Indians have very little idea about manufacturing excellence and know next to nothing about manufacturing quality.

 

[agentperry]

Actually it might be a combination of the two. Russian engineering design is never meant to reach manufacturing perfection. Not to mention they never try to build something to last forever - they keep room for "improvement" in the next generation - depending upon what problems they encountered in the last war/ battle. The upside is lower development costs (or spread over a longer timeframe). The downside is there is always some significant deficiency waiting to be exposed.
Added to that any manufacturing level quality issues at HAL (which I will NOT be surprised to hear about), will be a recipe for disaster. HAL is still steeped in the public sector manufacturing "good enough" mindset - and not the private sector "six-sigma" type mindset.
Sadly most Indians have very little idea about manufacturing excellence and know next to nothing about manufacturing quality.

only 0.6% of the crash are attributed to manufacturing defects on hal's part and this comes from their biggest critic- the Indian air force

 

[p2prada]

Actually it might be a combination of the two. Russian engineering design is never meant to reach manufacturing perfection. Not to mention they never try to build something to last forever - they keep room for "improvement" in the next generation - depending upon what problems they encountered in the last war/ battle. The upside is lower development costs (or spread over a longer timeframe). The downside is there is always some significant deficiency waiting to be exposed.
Added to that any manufacturing level quality issues at HAL (which I will NOT be surprised to hear about), will be a recipe for disaster. HAL is still steeped in the public sector manufacturing "good enough" mindset - and not the private sector "six-sigma" type mindset.
Sadly most Indians have very little idea about manufacturing excellence and know next to nothing about manufacturing quality.

You are applying the Soviet mindset to the new Russian one. The Russian mindset now is quite like the American. Even they have been increasing quality dramatically.

The quality of manufacture in HAL is first class. No LCA crashes to date is a sign of that. But unintentional design issues can be a major obstacle. Look at the Americans, the F-22 has major problems with the OBOGS. The F-35, albeit still in development, is coming out with new issues by the day.

I had pointed this out 2 years ago when I had recently joined the forum. I said the MKI may have many problems which need to be fixed as manufacturing progresses. Once we start manufacturing our own aircraft we will have a greater knowledge of the said problems which may not be easily identifiable during R&D stage. It is coming to pass today.

There were no engine related crashes so far. However single engine failures have been reported. The problem needs to be fixed though, but may not be as serious as a design goof up.

 

[bhramos]

Su-30MKIs being manufactured under license at HAL

Credits:kunal

 

[Galaxy]

SUKHOI CRASH: Flaws in Russian design or holes in HAL's quality standards? | Crashed fighter was on a maiden 'air test' after servicing

SATURDAY, DECEMBER 17, 2011

Bangalore: The Sukhoi (Su-30 MKI) that crashed near Pune on December 13 was on its first air test (fly test) after it underwent the mandatory servicing. The aircraft had already completed 400 hours of flying and had to do undergo a second servicing (after every 200 hours) as per the Indian Air Force (IAF) norms. Sources with the investigation team tell Express that the fighter crashed after oscillating – a rare phenomenon if the platform was not under control. "The pilots couldn't control the aircraft and it crashed without any warning, clearly pointing towards system and quality issues," sources said.

This was the third crash of the elite Sukhoi jets of IAF, with the first one occurring on April 2009 following the pilots suspected to have inadvertently switched-off the fly-by-wire and the second one in November 2009, with fire being reported inside the aircraft.

Sources in Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) say that there were quality related issues with the basic design (Russian). "The issues with the design are known even to the IAF and you can't blame HAL alone. The current crash is suspected to be a fly-by-wire malfunction and we are investigating. The flight data recorder (FDR) along with some burnt parts of the aircraft have come to Nasik. We will decode the FDR to find the exact cause," sources said.

The crashed fighter was manufactured at HAL's Nasik division, during 2009-10 period, as part of the phase-3 production (partial raw-material, partial Russian). Two Russian specialists are now part of the investigation team, with one looking into the fly-by-wire systems and another the test-flight parameters. "There's a lot of redundancy built in Sukhoi. There are four parallel wires and in case one fails there are three more that should have worked. Is it a question of the design flaw or HAL's quality standards?," sources ask.

HAL sources claim that they have made lot of improvements to the Su-30 MKI. "There were problems with the pipeline and looms (electrical harnes). Thirty (30) Sukhois were grounded a few months back due to defects in the assembly done by the Russians. They admitted the mistakes and identified 12 aircraft out of the 30 for rectification," sources said. The recent crash cost the nation Rs 250-crore. HAL's main profits come from Nasik Division.

42 ADDITIONAL ORDERS LIKELY: Amidst the question marks over quality issues, both from Russian and HAL side, India is all set to place an order for additional 42 Su-30MKIs. This is in addition to the initial order of 50 (which came from Russsia), plus the 180 (140 + 40) being done in various phases. "The additional order of 42 will be taken up for production from next year onwards. These may not be the upgraded versions (Super Sukhois). A final decision will be taken soon (upgraded or not) soon," sources said. So far, the IAF has taken deliveries of 103 Sukhois built under license by HAL.

Currently India is also holding talks with Russia for the upgradation of the existing fleet. "The plan is to upgrade 100 aircraft. A team is already in Russia and we are sorting out software and radar-related issues," source said.

Tarmak007 -- A bold blog on Indian defence: SUKHOI CRASH: Flaws in Russian design or holes in HAL's quality standards? | Crashed fighter was on a maiden 'air test' after servicing |

 

[plugwater]

WTF!! Fugly!!!

 

[p2prada]

WTF!! Fugly!!!

F-22 assembly line:

Check assembly lines for other fighters, they are a lot cleaner. Even Russian assembly lines.

 

[plugwater]

F-22 assembly line:

Check assembly lines for other fighters, they are a lot cleaner. Even Russian assembly lines.

Even Bajaj scooter assembly line beats Hal in cleanliness. Pathetic!!

 

[agentperry]

the comparison between su-30 mki production line and f-22 production line clearly shows that while latter is actually a production line but former is a serial production line.
in a hanger there was only one su-30 being assembled and rest of the space was occupied by junk or i dont know what it was. while f-22 production line had planes coming one after another in a line and being given treatment by designated staff.
a pure assembly line purely according to the assembly line of henry ford...

moreover the standing fans in hal production line shows that the plane is made in different hangers and then transported in between the facility where specialized work is done. this shows that facility is poorly designed or its not even a facility but a makeshift facotry in which anything can be assembled depending upon the govt orders. you want su-30 to be made here? ok, fine. few changes in machinery, few changes in layout and there you go.

in case of f-22 there is a dedicated assembly line in which pieces goes inside and a f-22 comes out

 

[Galaxy]

[h=1]Defence diary: Week on, Sukhois take to skies again[/h]

 

[Twinblade]

Check assembly lines for other fighters, they are a lot cleaner. Even Russian assembly lines.

Assembly line can do without "looking" clean and beautiful, but HAL assembly line will get low points on HSE regulations test. Low levels of housekeeping, cluttered workspace, haphazard layout live wires in a non demarcated area, oh boy they are going to fail on so many counts.

 

[p2prada]

Assembly line can do without "looking" clean and beautiful, but HAL assembly line will get low points on HSE regulations test. Low levels of housekeeping, cluttered workspace, haphazard layout live wires in a non demarcated area, oh boy they are going to fail on so many counts.

Check out the T-90 assembly line, you will kill yourself.

Productivity increases if the employees are happy. The cleaner the place the more you put your back into work. It's a strange but effective way of increasing productivity.

 

[Singh]

Check out the T-90 assembly line, you will kill yourself.

Productivity increases if the employees are happy. The cleaner the place the more you put your back into work. It's a strange but effective way of increasing productivity.

actually there is a phenomenon (forgetting the name) in HR. If you make changes to the work environment, the productivity automatically increases. It could be brightening the lights in winters, or turning down the thermostat in summers.

However, unless we don't go the corporate route, our public sector defence units will continue to suck.

 

[nitesh]

What are we cursing? That they haven't prepared themselves for a photo shoot.

 

[p2prada]

actually there is a phenomenon (forgetting the name) in HR. If you make changes to the work environment, the productivity automatically increases. It could be brightening the lights in winters, or turning down the thermostat in summers.

However, unless we don't go the corporate route, our public sector defence units will continue to suck.

Yeah. But they don't have anybody training them in modern HR and management principles.

As long as they deliver, nobody will care.