Su-30 MKI

[Armand2REP]

By early 2013, We will operate 40 with air variant brahmos. Rest all are speculation and nothing concrete !!

Not even that is concrete as India rejected Russia's offer to convert MKI to carry Brahmos.

 

[Galaxy]

Not even that is concrete as India rejected Russia's offer to convert MKI to carry Brahmos.

No, It's not. We will be operating MKI with Brahmos. 40 Tejas will be inducted within 18 months. 2 Air craft carrier with 45 MIG29 and 6 Naval tejas in maximum 3 years. Also, Most likely we will Buy 126 Eurofighter Typhoon soon.

 

[Armand2REP]

No, It's not. We will be operating MKI with Brahmos. 40 Tejas will be inducted within 18 months. 2 Air craft carrier with 45 MIG29 and 6 Naval tejas in maximum 3 years. Also, Most likely we will Buy 126 Eurofighter Typhoon soon.

Testing of the air launched version from trial aircraft will not even begin for 18 months, much less inducted. It is not even decided who will structurally reinforce MKI so they sit untouched.

India, Russia spar over BrahMos missile air version - Hindustan Times

 

[p2prada]

Russians are delivering MKI to you now?? Irkut deliveries should be over and turned over to HAL which are presently 14 per year.

We don't exactly know. If the 42 ordered go to Russia then I don't see their production line put on hold.

USAF has unequipped squadrons? Did you hear that from PRESSTV? Only India has a shortfall of over 200 aircraft and grows every year. Even Russia knows when they can't meet production to DOWNSIZE... not to GROW required levels.

Open source info, go ask Robert gates. USAF is downsizing and both USAF and USN have squadron shortfall. USAF has claimed the shortfall will be taken care off once the F-35 gets into full production. Both you and I know it has been delayed. However the USAF shortfall will be covered 5 years before IAF's. Bigger airforce, bigger budget. That's about it. But yeah, the USAF is downsizing.

So 1 MKI replaces 20 MiG-21? BS unless you are talking about Vietnam MiG-21s.

Nope. It is true. One MKI does the work of an entire squadron of Bisons. Heck a Bison can fly only for an hour whereas MKI does 4.5 hours and then 10 with IFR. Don't worry even one Rafale can do the work of a Bison Squadron.

You are short on capability considering the threats you face and you are far short compared to China.

Nope. The Chinese have major problems. Their Russian supplied Flankers are older than the 18 Flankers we are trying to get rid of. Their inhouse production of indigenous Flankers have a major engine hurdle to clear. Their radar is not as good as the MKIs either. The J-10A sucks, it is not so different from LCA Mk1 in it's issues. Their J-10B shows more promise but is still yet to be flight tested let alone start production. However it is not a match for the MKI. Their J-20 is as only possible by decade end by which time we may have completed half or 3/4th of our MRCA inductions. Other than that China flies those old Mig-21 clones which may not be a safe bet over the Himalayas.The Chinese made Flankers are currently China's biggest trump card and without a proven engine, it may not be able to change force equations. While India has to maintain superiority over PAF and parity over PLAAF, China has to maintain parity over Russia, South Korea, Japan, Taiwan and USN. Pretty big hurdle by any standards.

Novator is about as far along as Rafale hypersonic cruise missile... paper.

Nope. Not even close. They are possibly looking at 2012 for inductions.

MMRCA started in 2001, it is now 2011. It is the slowest major aircraft tender in the history of the world.

Not even close from the truth. It's like saying France has been working on Rafale since 1970 and managed inductions 30 years later in 2000.

MRCA RFP was sent only in 2007 for Rafale and you can write to Dassault about it if you want. In 4 years contract is to be signed, very very fast by any standards.

 

[pankaj nema]

@ Armand

Why are you so Anti Russia . Is it because France CANNOT develop A Fifth Generation Plane
or is it because Rafale is lagging in the MMRCA competition

BTW IAF has a VERY bright Future

FGFA ; MMRCA ; SU 30 MKI/ super Sukhois ; Upgraded MIG 29 ; Upgraded Mirage 2000 ; and OUR beloved LCA MK 2
WILL make our enemies go mad with JEALOUSY

 

[Anshu Attri]

What's "Super "about Super Sukhoi 30?

In MAKS 2011 international aviation show held in Moscow recently. President of Irkut Corporation of Russia Alexy Fedorov told reporters that Russia and India have reached agreement on the technical specification of the Super 30.

Under "Super 30" upgrade program, last batch of yet to be received Sukhoi su 30 MKI will be first upgraded to Super 30 standards. But details of upgrades have come in few and stretched in media reports .idrw.org with its sources have put together what upgrades Sukhoi 30 will be getting.

Avionics upgrade: Super Sukhoi 30 will get new cockpit layout with new upgraded avionics, onboard computers, electronic warfare systems ,which will also include active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar, replacing the older N-011M Bars radar with its passive electronic scanning antenna.

Radar planned for "Super Sukhoi 30 "will be Russian Phazotron Zhuk-AE Active Electronically Scanned Array AESA radars. The X-band radar can track 30 aerial targets in the track-while-scan mode and engage six targets simultaneously in attack mode. An alternative AESA is available for the Super 30 in the form of Tikhomirov's NIIP. Which was an experimental AESA revealed at MAKS 2009.

Weapons upgrade: Super 30 upgrade program will also enable Su-30MKI fighters to equip them with BrahMos missiles. But only first 42 aircrafts will be able to carry heaver BrahMos missiles under its belly, since it will require some strengthing of the airframe, even India's still to be tested Nirbhay and LRCM will be able to be carried by this 42 odd su 30's.

Another major upgrade in regards to weapons package will be that upgraded Super 30 will be able to integrate non-Russian weapons.

Stealth: To reduce Radar cross section of the Sukhoi 30 , Airframe will get several structural changes to the airframe to reduce its radar signature , airframe will also get special radar absorbing paint coat to further reduce its RCS.


All the above features will enable Su 30 to be most modern Sukhoi fighter aircraft until Su-50 aka FGFA enters Indian air force fleet .

 

[black eagle]

It all sounds good. But I am not too keen on the Zhuk-AE. I think it is limited in range....

 

[Armand2REP]

It all sounds good. But I am not too keen on the Zhuk-AE. I think it is limited in range....

Yeah, Zhuk AE was a total flop during technical trials in range and even acquiring the target. Russia AESA technology is not up to speed and India don't have time to wait. Better to just make an upscale RBE2-AA, with a nosecone that big you could have huge gain.

 

[Kunal Biswas]

Do you have the link ?

thnx..

 

[ace009]

Yeah, Zhuk AE was a total flop during technical trials in range and even acquiring the target. Russia AESA technology is not up to speed and India don't have time to wait. Better to just make an upscale RBE2-AA, with a nosecone that big you could have huge gain.

Can you name a source for this? I could not find any ...

 

[Armand2REP]

Can you name a source for this? I could not find any ...

The MiG-35's radar, the Zhuk-MAE active electronically scanned array (AESA), from Russia's Phazotron, failed to achieve the required acquisition and tracking ranges. And its Klimov RD-33MK engines also fell short of the Indian performance criteria.

Engines and radar to blame for MiG-35 failure in MMRCA contest

 

[ace009]

In that case I am not sure how the EF or the Rafale made the cut ...

EF radar (ELTA) meets the specs, but was not attached to the aircraft during testing. Rafale's RBE2 was clearly smaller than the competitors ...

T/R Modules required for IAF specs = 1000.
T/R modules of current radars ...

Rafale - RBE2 898
APG 63v2- 1500
APG 77 - 1500
APG 81 - 1200
APG 79 - 1100
Captor aesa- 1000 - 2000
Gripen NG aesa -
elta 2052 - >1500
zhuk ae - 680

So, what was the real story?

 

[plugwater]

It all sounds good. But I am not too keen on the Zhuk-AE. I think it is limited in range....

Some info about Zhuk-AE.

Zhuk ASE AESA - Scaling the Zhuk AE for the Flanker

One of the stated intentions of Phazotron is to scale up the Zhuk AE for the Flanker, in the manner of the Zhuk-27 and Zhuk-MSFE variants, using a 0.98 metre diameter aperture.

If we assume that such a scaled up design uses exactly the same quad module technology as the Zhuk AE does, and an enlarged cooling plate and mounting frame, then the achievable performance will scale with the aperture size. For the 0.98 m antenna outside diameter, assuming a similar unused area around the emitter array, the total usable aperture diameter will be around 0.8 metres, and the element count will sit at around 1160. If we assume tighter placement and a 1.1 metre antenna outside diameter, as used in the Pero PESA, then the total usable aperture diameter will be around 0.95 metres, and the element count will sit at around 1630, or about the same as the Zhuk-MSFE PESA design.

With a peak power rating of 10 Watts/channel the latter yields a peak power of the order of 16.3 kW which results in a radar which outperforms the N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-71 and APG-79 in raw power aperture performance. Such a radar could reach IOC around 2010 if it is funded properly, in step with the timelines for the NIIP Irbis E.

If Phazotron improve the TR channel power rating as they have stated an intent to do, then the results bear some careful consideration. Tabulating options yields some interesting results.

​

Estimated detection range chart for variants of the Zhuk ASE AESA equipped with a range of Transmit Receive Module power ratings per channel. The detection range performance of the 10 and 12 Watt module equipped Zhuk ASE is similar to the Tikhomirov NIIP Irbis-E hybrid ESA in the Su-35BM/Su-35-1, and much superior to the N011M BARS. The performance of Zhuk ASE if equipped with modules rated above 15 Watts is superior to the Irbis E. Receiver noise figure and effective aperture area are assumed to be similar. N011M performance is based on parametric data and is better than NIIP cited figures (Author).

Notional Zhuk ASE Estimated Power Aperture: ~1630 TR channels; 0.95 meter aperture diameter; NF=3.5 dB
TR Channel Peak Power [W]	Radar Ave Power [kW]	Radar Peak Power [kW]	PA[SUB]PEAK[/SUB] [dBWm[SUP]2[/SUP]]
10.0	8.15	16.3	40.6
12.0	10.0	20.0	41.5
15.0	12.25	24.5	42.4
20.0	16.3	32.6	43.6
25.0	20.4	40.8	44.6

Notional Zhuk ASE: Radars/Fighters Power Aperture Comparison
TR Channel Peak Power [W]	Radars Outperformed by Zhuk ASE	Fighter Types Equipped
10.0	N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81	Su-30MK, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
12.0	N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81	Su-30MK, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
15.0	N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81	Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
20.0	N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81	Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF
25.0	N035 Irbis E, N011M BARS, APG-63(V)1, APG-70, APG-73, APG-79, APG-81	Su-30MK/35BM, F-15C/E, F/A-18A-G, JSF

Once Phazotron have engineered a Zhuk ASE with ~1630 TR Channels, then scaling up power aperture performance is only a matter of changing the TR Module design to use more powerful transistors, and improving the per module heat transfer performance in the AESA. Both of the latter represent fairly low risk incremental design changes.

Much of the imperative in the US to pursue high density tiled packaging was the result of a high demand for reduced AESA mass production costs, good structural mode RCS performance, and tight element spacing to maximise bandwidth, so as to expand the functions the AESAs could perform and to maximise LPI capability via frequency agility. It is not entirely clear that these would be compelling near term motives for Russia's industry - they will become such as work on the avionics for the PAK-FA accelerates.

There can be absolutely no doubt that Phazotron will aggressively market the Zhuk ASE as an upgrade package into the established Flanker market, which could be as large as 500 aircraft in China alone.


Phazotron Zhuk AE: Assessing Russia's First AESA

 

[Armand2REP]

In that case I am not sure how the EF or the Rafale made the cut ...

EF radar (ELTA) meets the specs, but was not attached to the aircraft during testing. Rafale's RBE2 was clearly smaller than the competitors ...

RBE2 AA clearly met the technical evaluations and was the only qualifier on a working aircraft. The EF prototype was actually smaller than the RBE2 AA fielded so our radar was the biggest one finalised. Since India is basing their decision on what they see and not what is promised in the future, it is a clear tick in the Rafale catagory. EF prototype is not made by ELTA but by Selex of Italy.

T/R Modules required for IAF specs = 1000.
T/R modules of current radars ...

Rafale - RBE2 898

Thales says it is more like 1000.

Thales's RBE2 AESA radar successfully completes new series of tests

APG 63v2- 1500
APG 77 - 1500
APG 81 - 1200
APG 79 - 1100
Captor aesa- 1000 - 2000
Gripen NG aesa -
elta 2052 - >1500
zhuk ae - 680

So, what was the real story?

The real story is the RBE2 AA has a peak power of 14kw, none of the others but the US models are. People get so caught up counting T/R modules they lose sight of what is important... power and processing. US and France are the only ones who make latest gen T/R modules for AESA radar, Russian modules are last gen and as we found out quite inferior. Selex is coming along in its AESA technology, but it is still 5 years behind Thales and dependent on our T/R modules. There are no customers for Captor-E that is still sitting in downscaled prototype on a helicopter, there is for RBE2 AA that is in full production. ELTA 2052 isn't an issue here, but it is along the lines of CAPTOR-E in its development status. Israel uses US T/R modules so that may pose an issue for somebody but they do have the expertise to get it done. It does seem to be lagging in development however.

 

[p2prada]

Yeah, Zhuk AE was a total flop during technical trials in range and even acquiring the target. Russia AESA technology is not up to speed and India don't have time to wait. Better to just make an upscale RBE2-AA, with a nosecone that big you could have huge gain.

You are being silly. The Russian AESA department came out with a prototype even before Thales did. Like I already said that Phazatron has various versions of the Zukh. The Mig-35 lost out due to range and not acquiring target. It is well known the Russian technology in airborne radars is ahead of France, so the failure in acquiring target crap is just that, crap.

As for Range, the Mig-35 engines have old power packs which means a useless power output. This automatically means the power radiated by the radar is less than it's counterparts like Rafale and EF. It is not that the Mig-35 is inferior, it is just that Rafale and EF are simply newer.

If we wait for an upscale RBE-2AA then it will take 5 years before it can be fielded for testing. So, it won't happen.

 

[Neil]

Do you have the link ?

thnx..

What's "Super "about Super Sukhoi 30? | idrw.org

 

[Sancho]

I think there are some confusions about the upgrade and the order of 42 new once, caused by many wrong media reports, but this article gives a good hint on what this all is about:

Important points:

- reduction of RCS, AESA radar (possibly upgraded BARS), new cockpit features, Brahmos capability confirmed

- the upgrade is not only meant for the newly ordered and some older fighters but for all MKIs

- that means all MKIs will get Brahmos capability, not just some special strike squads like some earlier report claimed, because the upgrade includes structural changes of (at least) the centerline hardpoints to carry the missile. The mid/long term aim is to develop a lighter Brahmos version (already under development), that makes MKI capable of carrying up to 3 and FGFA 2 missiles in anti ship, or deep strike roles

- other upgrades that are likely, or mentioned in other reports are, overhauling of the older airframes, upraded IRST and new set of sensors and jammers of the EWS

- rumored upgrades are L-Band arrays, integration of Indian, or western weapons, new engine or upgrade of the current version



Not really on topic, but since there is already a discussion about it...

...the Zhuk AE was fielded in the MMRCA trials (most likely in Russia), but so far there are several different version available. The early version had less T/R modules than RBE 2 and did not offered much radar range, which was the reason why Phazotron offered a bigger version with around 1000 modules, which was said to offer 200Km detection range. That would have made it very comparable to the EF, or F18SH range estimations, but during the development it was reported that the radar was too heavy, which caused changes again.
Imo, they were able to provide some improvements, but Phazotron definitely needs more time (and most likely money) to finish the development and IAF seems to have not much hope that it would have been, capable or available in time. Similar things was reported about the Gripen NG radar, which is also under development only and seems to have technical issues, that were confirmed in the Indian and Brazilian evaluations.
So it might not be the just one problem like range, but also weight issues, or the development stage of the radar, which caused lower ratings of the Mig and Gripen.
The only strange point is, that the EF AESA development is as premature, lacks fundings, or even a real tech demonstrator and still IAF shortlisted it, with the note by the former IAF chief, that the radar don't have to be ready now, but when IAF gets the fighter.
However, that shows that althouh AESA radar is a general requirement in MMRCA, it is not a prime one, otherwise the proven and highly capable APG 79 of the F18SH would have pushed it into the final stage.

For those who are interested, here are some offical specbords of Zhuk AE:

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

(the early version with a diameter of 575mm and a detection range of 130Km)


https://picasaweb.google.com/110614958773855914651/AeroIndia2011#5571669691433921218

(latest from Aero India and if you zoom in you can see that it now has a diameter of 688mm and a range of 160Km)

 

[Armand2REP]

You are being silly. The Russian AESA department came out with a prototype even before Thales did. Like I already said that Phazatron has various versions of the Zukh. The Mig-35 lost out due to range and not acquiring target. It is well known the Russian technology in airborne radars is ahead of France, so the failure in acquiring target crap is just that, crap.

Who is being silly? France brought its current AESA to the technical evaluation and breezed through it. Russia brought its current AESA and failed miserably proving their tech is crap. So the Russian AESA is just that... crap.

As for Range, the Mig-35 engines have old power packs which means a useless power output. This automatically means the power radiated by the radar is less than it's counterparts like Rafale and EF. It is not that the Mig-35 is inferior, it is just that Rafale and EF are simply newer.

No, the MiG-35 is inferior which is why it lost.

If we wait for an upscale RBE-2AA then it will take 5 years before it can be fielded for testing. So, it won't happen.

More like 3 years as that is the time it takes for Thales to modify them for other applications.

 

[ace009]

Hmm - this is what I could find about the NIIP AESA -

PICTURE: Russia unveils AESA radar for PAK FA fighter

Defunct Humanity: Tikhomirov's NIIP AESA radar for PAK FA

Assessing the Tikhomirov NIIP L-Band Active Electronically Steered Array

 

[plugwater]

that means all MKIs will get Brahmos capability, not just some special strike squads like some earlier report claimed, because the upgrade includes structural changes of (at least) the centerline hardpoints to carry the missile. The mid/long term aim is to develop a lighter Brahmos version (already under development), that makes MKI capable of carrying up to 3 and FGFA 2 missiles in anti ship, or deep strike roles

No mate, All Su-30 will be upgraded to super Su standard but the capability to launch Brahmos will be given to only 40 ACs.

Mk1 will carry only one Brahmos and no idea bout FGFA, i doubt it ll have enough space to hold brahmos in its weapon bay so FGFA can only carry brahmos in non stealth mode.

Mock up of su-30 with brahmos.