Su-30 MKI

[Godless-Kafir]

If I was out to score brownie points on an Indian forum I wouldn't be critical of its equipment. However, I am one for the facts so faults need to be revealed. You are just mad I don't praise everything GoI buys from Russia and comes out of DRDO labs. Sorry bub, they are not known for quality so you will be waiting awhile.

Go back to the last comment and figure it out, You deliberately miss quoted the pilots statement and i corrected your facts, Now you claim you all for facts is a joke. Your not for facts your just for chest thumping everything French is superior and we all know that.

We as common people know nothing of DRDOs quality, so its better you stick to what we know.

 

[ace009]

@Armand, I still think your arguments against the MKI are weak at best and majorly faulty most times.
@GK - don't curse Armand - his criticism is still worth arguing about without personal attacks.

To all, my advice is, let's stay friends - since the Pakis (and maybe the Chinese) hackers try to shut us down, I am missing the DFI discussions a lot - let's not derail actual discussions with OT stuff.
My own OT rant over ...

It looks like the MKI will have three classes (at least in the near future) - ~40/50 (depends on the source) will be Super-30 standard (Like the F-15SE Silent Eagle), around 40 will be equipped with Brahmos/ Nirbhay for strike purposes (like the F-15E Strike Eagle) and the rest will be "regular" MKI standard (like F-15C/D). Different mixes for different purposes (the Super-30 for air support over enemy territory, the Brahmos carrying ones for obvious strike roles and the rest for air defense).
Any comments?

 

[p2prada]

Only one. All MKIs are to get super 30 upgrade.

 

[ace009]

Is there a source for this? All the reports say only 40-50 are due for Super-30 upgrade - and only 40-50 are due for Brahmos/ Nirbhay carriage. What am I missing?

 

[p2prada]

I will look for a source once I am back on my computer. But all will be upgraded.

This was always the plan. Upgrades will happen in blocks.

 

[plugwater]

Alexey Fedorov, chief of the Sukhoi-making Russian company, Irkut, said at the recently concluded biennial airshow -- MAKS-2011 -- in Zhukovsky near Moscow [ Images ], that the Sukhoi upgradation has two components, for which technical negotiations are on. One includes the modernisation of the aircraft to fit the BrahMos missile's air version on it, and the other is to upgrade the existing five Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons of the IAF.
Approximately, 100 Su-30MKI aircraft are divided into five squadrons, and the IAF plans to have about 270 of these aircraft in the long run.

:: Bharat-Rakshak.com - Indian Military News Headlines ::

 

[ace009]

Then it seems there are two versions - one for strike role carrying Brahmos/ Nirbhay and another for air-superiority with Super-30 upgrades.

 

[p2prada]

Not exactly. The Brahmos carrying MKIs are meant for sea denial roles similar to 2 of our Jaguar squadrons. However the MKIs will be as capable as other MKIs which cannot carry Brahmos in air to air.

More importantly, all MKIs that are yet to be built, after the upgrades are initiated, will have the ability to carry Brahmos. Just that 2 squadrons will be dedicated for the role.

It is yet to be seen how composites will be added to the existing MKIs as compared to the ones which are yet to be built and stealthy aspects can be added while production.

Most probably all MKIs current and future will carry Nirbhay as a default weapon.

 

[StealthSniper]

We really need to induct more MKI's faster, get MMRCA finished and get the LCA in full production very soon, because all I hear is how good our newer generation fighters are going to be (which they are) but at the end of the day our poor pilots are flying 30 year old planes which even North Korea don't deserve. Wake up India, wake up.

 

[Armand2REP]

Not exactly. The Brahmos carrying MKIs are meant for sea denial roles similar to 2 of our Jaguar squadrons. However the MKIs will be as capable as other MKIs which cannot carry Brahmos in air to air.

More importantly, all MKIs that are yet to be built, after the upgrades are initiated, will have the ability to carry Brahmos. Just that 2 squadrons will be dedicated for the role.

It is yet to be seen how composites will be added to the existing MKIs as compared to the ones which are yet to be built and stealthy aspects can be added while production.

Most probably all MKIs current and future will carry Nirbhay as a default weapon.

There isn't much certainty in any of what you are saying. Not even the contract for MKI carriage upgrade to carry Brahmos has been signed... unless I missed something the past month. If the purpose was to upgrade the entire fleet to carry Brahmos, their would have to be an air launched strike version which doesn't exist. I am still waiting to see the top-down attack it supposedly made months ago for Block III. Is there much point in adding stealth aspects? You going to cut down from 25^m2 to 12^m2... is that going to make a difference? Nirbhay... another dream weapon from DRDO.

 

[p2prada]

There isn't much certainty in any of what you are saying. Not even the contract for MKI carriage upgrade to carry Brahmos has been signed... unless I missed something the past month. If the purpose was to upgrade the entire fleet to carry Brahmos, their would have to be an air launched strike version which doesn't exist.

Yes. We will know for certain once official words are out.

If Sarkozy says the Rafale will get a laser based BMD in 2 years, will you believe him or will you believe some random Chinese guy saying it is not possible? Now consider where you stand?

It would be silly to believe it will not happen because all that has been posted has been mentioned by the highest officials from both Russia and India.

I am still waiting to see the top-down attack it supposedly made months ago for Block III.

Sorry sir. It seems we need to prove everything to you before we induct anything. There are a lot of videos that have not yet been seen. So, why discount something that has been officially verified by both the manufacturer as well as the user?

Is there much point in adding stealth aspects? You going to cut down from 25^m2 to 12^m2... is that going to make a difference? Nirbhay... another dream weapon from DRDO.

Your own Garud Pilots said the MKI had superior situational awareness to both Rafale and Mirage-2000. It is you who posted the article on DFI.

This figure of 25m^2 is actually for the old Su-27. The RCS figures for clean Su-35 is between 1-2m^2 as per official records. The MKI will be reduced to these figures eventually. A very recent article quotes a Russian pilot who says the MKI will be equal to the Su-35. Rumours say the actual RCS figures for clean MKI as of today is between 3-5m^2 depending on the source, and can be debatable. Considering the Rafale's RBE-2 and the M-2000s RDY-2 could pick up current MKIs only after the MKI has detected Rafale and M-2000 first, it only goes on to indicate the increased capability the upgrade offers. Unless of course you say your own pilots are liars.

 

[Armand2REP]

Yes. We will know for certain once official words are out.

If Sarkozy says the Rafale will get a laser based BMD in 2 years, will you believe him or will you believe some random Chinese guy saying it is not possible? Now consider where you stand?

You want to compare DGA timetables to DRDO? Now that is a

DGA delay is measured in months while DRDO is measured in decades. France knows how to make and keep realistic schedules. India does not...

It would be silly to believe it will not happen because all that has been posted has been mentioned by the highest officials from both Russia and India.

Not really... Super 30 is still undisclosed as well as the number to be upgraded.

Sorry sir. It seems we need to prove everything to you before we induct anything. There are a lot of videos that have not yet been seen. So, why discount something that has been officially verified by both the manufacturer as well as the user?

Don't you think you need to prove it to yourself? Look at your artillery situation... Shameful!

Your own Garud Pilots said the MKI had superior situational awareness to both Rafale and Mirage-2000. It is you who posted the article on DFI.

They never said that, they said it has a big honking radar that lights it up like a Christmas Tree.

This figure of 25m^2 is actually for the old Su-27. The RCS figures for clean Su-35 is between 1-2m^2 as per official records. The MKI will be reduced to these figures eventually. A very recent article quotes a Russian pilot who says the MKI will be equal to the Su-35. Rumours say the actual RCS figures for clean MKI as of today is between 3-5m^2 depending on the source, and can be debatable. Considering the Rafale's RBE-2 and the M-2000s RDY-2 could pick up current MKIs only after the MKI has detected Rafale and M-2000 first, it only goes on to indicate the increased capability the upgrade offers. Unless of course you say your own pilots are liars.

Nope, that figure is for MKI. Source = Ajay Shukla. RCS figures for Su-35 is 12m^2 which is why I stated it. 1-2m is in your dreams. MKI would need a rebuild to bring it to Su-35 standards. Rafale and RDY-2 can pick up an MKI at its extreme range... EASILY. That is why they kicked them at Garuda.

 

[p2prada]

You want to compare DGA timetables to DRDO? Now that is a

DGA delay is measured in months while DRDO is measured in decades. France knows how to make and keep realistic schedules. India does not...

All wrong information. It is not DRDO but HAL and Irkut. Irkut will be doing the upgrades while HAL will integrate them. Same old same old.

As for Brahmos, it will be done by Brahmos Aerospace which is independent of DRDO, HAL or Irkut.

Brahmos timetable has been very good.

Not really... Super 30 is still undisclosed as well as the number to be upgraded.

When Irkut director said the word all 270, does that ring any bells? All will be upgraded, including the ones in service.

Don't you think you need to prove it to yourself? Look at your artillery situation... Shameful![/quotes]

Arms dealers got caught in rackets and some were blacklisted. What's that got to do with MKI or Brahmos.

They never said that, they said it has a big honking radar that lights it up like a Christmas Tree.

Check again. The Mirage-2000 actually says it and the article quotes it. The MKI detected first, but better tactics from ALA cut out that advantage. He openly says that IAF learnt radar isn't everything.

Nope, that figure is for MKI. Source = Ajay Shukla. RCS figures for Su-35 is 12m^2 which is why I stated it. 1-2m is in your dreams. MKI would need a rebuild to bring it to Su-35 standards. Rafale and RDY-2 can pick up an MKI at its extreme range... EASILY. That is why they kicked them at Garuda.

What an awesome source. I am a good source too in that case.

I would any day believe Sukhoi to Ajai Shukla. In Sukhois words the RCS could be anywhere between 0.5 to 2m^2 because they gave a dBSM value. Of course I am talking about a clean aircraft while Ajai may very well be talking about a MKI with full external stores.

RBE-2 and RDY-2 cannot pick up the MKI before the MKI can pick up the 2 simply because of Physics. The MKI has bigger antennas while Rafale and Mirage don't. You need a basic understanding of radars to know that RBE-2 and RDY-2 are useless at over 130Km range because the resolution will go beyond the dimensions of the MKI. The same way MKIs radar will be useless beyond 250 or 300Km for small targets because the resolution will be too big. Only big ships will be picked up at 300 to 400Km. Power delivered is also important because a lot of it will be lost by the time it reaches the MKI's max Bars detection range to the point where it may never reach the source. RBE-2 is nowhere close to Bars's 10KW transmitter and RDY-2 at 800W is negligible as compared to Bars.

It is a major misconception that any radar can pick up the MKI before the MKI can pick up the target because it has such a large RCS value.

 

[Immanuel]

Besides how the f*** can a RDY-2 and Rafale PESA detect a MKI, both of them have a max detection range of just over 100km, MKI even with its PESA has a detection range around 350km. Secondly, the MKi has never turned on the radar in international excercises. The MKI has always played in training mode and radar was always off AFAIK. Rafale is a junk fighter which no one wants to buy. Rafale was downlisted just to get the price of the EF down which is the clear winner of MRCA. Only way Rafale wins is through kickbacks and corrupt payments.

 

[p2prada]

The Bars training mode allows decent detection capabilities. A lot of the ECCM features and modes will be turned off. It is not necessary for the Bars to be turned off completely. However against potent adversaries like Rafale or EF the Bars at full mode will be difficult for them to beat.

Too many people underestimate the capabilities of Bars and Irbis simply because they don't know how radars work.

A lot has to do with radar physics. For eg: A group of 5 or 6 fighters close together will appear as only one fighter to the Rafale albeit with larger signatures. If the radar is able to identify the fighter, then he is able to estimate how many fighters may be in the detected range. There should be massive distance between 2 targets in order for the radar to detect and identify both.

However radars with smaller antennas like Rafale's RBE-2 which is half that of the Bars will have a large beamwidth. Large beamwidth does not allow excellent detection capabilities as compared to the smaller beamwidth on Bars. This makes the Bars ability to track targets more efficient than the RBE-2. Hence the MKI will always have superiority over the Rafale when it comes to situational awareness. It is the same with EF-2000 and MKI as well. However the EF can deliver excellent power as compared to Rafale, but then it is nowhere close to the Su-35.

After 2008, IAF may have believed the MRCA fighters will simply be superior to the MKI is many levels because the MKI is a decade older in configuration as compared to the MRCA fighters. Even today the tech the MRCA fighters carry is superior to MKI. But with the MKI upgrade looming ahead even a fully modified Rafale or EF-2000 with AESA will be behind the Super MKI. Even Boeing marketed the Super Hornet with the idea that the SH will be a good wingman to the pointman MKI.

JF-17(600-650mm) can hold a larger antenna array than the Rafale(550mm). But JF-17's radar(AESA or not) does not hold a candle to the Bars(950mm) let alone the possible AESA version of Bars. They are and will be dependent on the Erieye, Aerostats and ground radars in identifying targets for the JF-17. Aerostats and ground radars are static targets and can be taken out. If the R-37 lives up to it's expectations, then Erieye can be engaged beyond it's radar range.

EF is at 750mm, F-35 at 700mm, F-22 at 900mm and Su-35 at 900mm.

 

[Armand2REP]

Well, Bars used at the last Garuda were not in training mode as BVRAAMs were used to their full capability. Kind of defeats that claim.

 

[p2prada]

Well, Bars used at the last Garuda were not in training mode as BVRAAMs were used to their full capability. Kind of defeats that claim.

Any proof regarding that? I already told you, if the Bars was used fully then IAF would let us know.

BVRAAMs were simulated and MKIs fired BVRAAMs in exercises since CI-2004. It is really easy. An escort fighter like the Mirage-2000(in Garud) or Tornados(in our exercises with Britain) would pick up targets and let the MKI pilot know target has been acquired. The MKI pilot then announces a BVR lock. That's a BVR kill. Exercises are funny you see. It's a point based system.

BVRAAMs were simulated in Red Flag in a similar fashion using voice commands from AWACS. This was in 2008 and you very well know we had fratricides. It is not possible without BVR.

The only ones who have seen the Bars in action are Indian pilots and a slight chance Singapore also. But Singapore and Malaysia(who have MKM) have their little quarrels and perhaps no chance of that either.

Russia in general and also IAF in practice has not yet authorized the pilots to use the Bars fully.

Comparatively in Garud EW was not used, ECCM was not simulated, capabilities of Bars and Spectra not shown and it was mainly scenarios that the ALA was accustomed to. Remember this was the first time MKIs were used in offensive and defensive roles in the same mission profile. So, this was more of a learning experience in new practices for both India and Singapore. The exercise was meant to showcase French prowess and we were fighting under French rules with French strengths. I had already told you exercises are mostly designed to favour the host's rules of engagement which can be significantly different from participating air force's RoE.

There is no doubt the French Air force is better trained, but the MKI is simply a better plane.

 

[Pandora]

What are Irkut's immediate production plans?



The Su-30MKI family of fighters will be the backbone of our production programme in the medium term. In addition, this year we will start exporting Yak-130 military trainer aircraft. The leadership of Algeria's Air Force has verified that the planes fully meet their requirements. Algerian pilots are currently training in Russia. The aircraft deliveries will begin in 2011. Negotiations with other foreign customers have also been running smoothly. Russia's Ministry of Industry and Trade named the Irkut Corporation the best aircraft exporter in 2008, 2009, and 2010. We hope to retain this title in the coming years. The Irkutsk Aviation Plant will continue to produce components for Airbus A320. Going forward, we will focus our efforts on the MS-21 programme.



How is Irkut handling state defence orders?



We are working with the Sukhoi Design Bureau on an upgraded version of the Su-30MKI that will meet the requirements of Russia's Air Force. Two units should be ready for testing later this year. Once the announced specifications are confirmed, a contract with the Ministry of Defence will be discussed. In addition, Irkut is in talks with the Ministry of Defence to supply the new Yak-130 combat trainer aircraft, including to the Russian Air Force's aerobatics display team. Both projects – the Su-30SM and the Yak-130 – have been included in the state armaments programme till 2020.



Is there anything special about working with India on the Su-30 production programme?



Of course. The Su-30MKI is the first plane whose exterior was jointly developed by Russian and Indian specialists on a parity basis. At the design stage, the customer requested that it include advanced Western-produced systems. As head implementer of the programme, Irkut, along with the Sukhoi Design Bureau, was able to resolve many technical and organisational issues involved in this integration. One of India's foremost requirements was technology transfer and the participation of their industry in the plane's manufacturing. We met these requirements together with India's HAL Corporation.



What breakthroughs do you envisage in the field of military aircraft in the near future?



We have two key areas for development in the military segment. First of all, there's the expansion of capabilities in the Su-30MKI family. Together with the Sukhoi Design Bureau, we are working on a programme to upgrade planes previously supplied to India. The plane will be equipped with a new radar system, and other avionics components will be upgraded. In addition, work is underway to arm the Su-30MKI with Russian-Indian BrahMos supersonic missiles. The plane will be equipped with a "long arm" to destroy any type of sea targets. Combining the Su-30MKI with BrahMos will elevate our competitive position in the global market because our Western competitors have nothing similar to offer.


http://indrus.in/articles/2011/09/12/ms-21_set_to_change_global_aviation_skyline_12972.html

 

[LETHALFORCE]

TRISHUL: Su-30MKI's Russia-Origin Weapons Package

Su-30MKI's Russia-Origin Weapons Package

 

[ALBY]

Can any one please tell why indians are ordering sukhois which are twin seaters when their Russian counter parts are single seater?