Su-30 MKI

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mki

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Can any one please tell why indians are ordering sukhois which are twin seaters when their Russian counter parts are single seater?
Because of 2 Pilot configuration work load can be shared and pilots utilize their skills more efficiently.
Front pilot fly the plane and handle in dogfight and rear pilot (Weapon officer) engages BVR, A2G etc operations.
 

ace009

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For a large aircraft like the Su-30 MKI with multi-role capabilities and advanced avionics (or even for medium sized multi-role aircraft), two pilots are preferred for optimal performance. In the same category, F-15 is also a twin-seat fighter.
 

asianobserve

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For a large aircraft like the Su-30 MKI with multi-role capabilities and advanced avionics (or even for medium sized multi-role aircraft), two pilots are preferred for optimal performance. In the same category, F-15 is also a twin-seat fighter.
There are single seaters (F15C) and two seaters (F15E) variants. Two seater variants are geared towards multi-role tasks while single seaters are air superiority fighters. Obviously, the workload theory is correct. Multi-role missions demand more loads on the pilots as they have to watch for both air and land targets. The MKI is a very large aircraft so another pilot and added equipments for the second pilot isn't going to be much of a demand to the aircraft. Besides, since the two-seater variant is just as potent as the single seater in air-to-air mode then the IAF might as well stick with a single aircraft type to streamline logistics and maximize aircraft numbers for all kind of missions.

Just my thought on the matter.
 

Armand2REP

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The problem with that analysis is the lack of foresight in India's procurement policy. AMCA is a fantasy aircraft at this point, LCA is far from being a high production aircaft, MKI production is still running at a snails pace with one line, and PAK FA is having both engine and ECM design problems. Not to mention Novator is a no show and MiG-29Ks seem to be running into a wall. Even the Hawk kits are being torn apart slowing up acquisition. MMRCA seems to be fast tracked, but who knows after so much delay already. Really is too optimistic given all that is happening.
 

Immanuel

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The problem with that analysis is the lack of foresight in India's procurement policy. AMCA is a fantasy aircraft at this point, LCA is far from being a high production aircaft, MKI production is still running at a snails pace with one line, and PAK FA is having both engine and ECM design problems. Not to mention Novator is a no show and MiG-29Ks seem to be running into a wall. Even the Hawk kits are being torn apart slowing up acquisition. MMRCA seems to be fast tracked, but who knows after so much delay already. Really is too optimistic given all that is happening.
MKI production is still faster than the Rafale's production rate which is between 12 to 14 aircraft a year. This shitty and slow rate will probably cost them the MRCA. How the heck can rafale production be any fasterm the French are like the laziest ass***** in EU reguarly striking for 32 hrs working weeks.
 

Armand2REP

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MKI production is still faster than the Rafale's production rate which is between 12 to 14 aircraft a year. This shitty and slow rate will probably cost them the MRCA. How the heck can rafale production be any fasterm the French are like the laziest ass***** in EU reguarly striking for 32 hrs working weeks.
Rafale's production is at the slowest rate possible that can achieve efficiency levels... why? Because it is being kept open for export orders. The line has proven a capacity for 24 and can be ramped to 32 on short notice. MKI line is at max capacity so whoot whoot.
 

p2prada

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The problem with that analysis is the lack of foresight in India's procurement policy. AMCA is a fantasy aircraft at this point, LCA is far from being a high production aircaft, MKI production is still running at a snails pace with one line, and PAK FA is having both engine and ECM design problems. Not to mention Novator is a no show and MiG-29Ks seem to be running into a wall. Even the Hawk kits are being torn apart slowing up acquisition. MMRCA seems to be fast tracked, but who knows after so much delay already. Really is too optimistic given all that is happening.
28 MKIs were inducted last year and 26 MKIs a year before that. The MKI production is at the same rate as Rafale at 14/year, however with 2 production lines for MKI with one in India and one in Russia both doing 28/year. 105 MKIs were inducted as of 2009 as told in the Parliament. As of Feb/March the number stands at over 145. That's effectively 40 aircraft over the last 1.5 years. So, do the math. The recent contract for 42 MKI has not revealed where they will be produced, India or Russia. If HAL is chosen then production will end only in 2018. If Russia is chosen they can start by the end of the year because the last order of 40 MKIs given to Russia is nearing completion, so it is possible they will get the contract. Effectively 2 MKIs are being made for 1 Rafale every year or 3.5 EFs(50/year) are being made for 1 Rafale produced every year. The Chinese are probably doing even better and so are the Americans. This means Rafale is at the bottom of the heap. So, I don't know what you are complaining about.

AMCA is indeed on the drawing board and is planned for the future, not right now.

We have plenty of Hawks right now, even with the delivery issues.

PAKFA has no engine troubles and there is no ECM on PAKFA.

The Mig-29ks are doing fine, the accident in Russia was pilot error. He was flying too low and could not pull up in time.

Novator or I guess Vympel will be inducted in time as has been told by our highest authorities. So, it will happen.

MRCA will happen as contract signing is one of the biggest hurdles. Then comes all the bickering and blame game over the contract and then comes the aircraft deliveries and problems associated with it.
 

ace009

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I appreciate Armand's points - and P2prada's counters too.
I have just one question - given all the claimed speed that Dassault can manufacture Rafale, why does it take them 10 years to upgrade 43 Mirage2000s for IAF?
 

Armand2REP

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I appreciate Armand's points - and P2prada's counters too.
I have just one question - given all the claimed speed that Dassault can manufacture Rafale, why does it take them 10 years to upgrade 43 Mirage2000s for IAF?
Because India wants to upgrade them herself. It takes them that much longer to absorb the technology.
 

p2prada

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Because India wants to upgrade them herself. It takes them that much longer to absorb the technology.
It's not just that. It is something else, something that cannot be avoided in the modification, be it India or France. It is silly to think it would take that long when in 2008 Thales said one Mirage-2000 can be upgraded at the rate of one every month. The entire aircraft is set to be stripped down to nothing and rewired from scratch. That's a massive upgrade. This has very little to do with technology and more to do with the scale of work being undertaken. The timeline has doubled since Thales's first proposal in 2008. Instead of 1 aircraft/month, it will be 2 aircraft/month.

Anyway the resulting aircraft will be superior to the old Mirage-2000 and also the LCA Mk1. But this is to bring the Mirage-2000 to standards set in 1999.
 

Armand2REP

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28 MKIs were inducted last year and 26 MKIs a year before that. The MKI production is at the same rate as Rafale at 14/year, however with 2 production lines for MKI with one in India and one in Russia both doing 28/year. 105 MKIs were inducted as of 2009 as told in the Parliament. As of Feb/March the number stands at over 145. That's effectively 40 aircraft over the last 1.5 years. So, do the math. The recent contract for 42 MKI has not revealed where they will be produced, India or Russia. If HAL is chosen then production will end only in 2018. If Russia is chosen they can start by the end of the year because the last order of 40 MKIs given to Russia is nearing completion, so it is possible they will get the contract. Effectively 2 MKIs are being made for 1 Rafale every year or 3.5 EFs(50/year) are being made for 1 Rafale produced every year. The Chinese are probably doing even better and so are the Americans. This means Rafale is at the bottom of the heap. So, I don't know what you are complaining about.

AMCA is indeed on the drawing board and is planned for the future, not right now.

We have plenty of Hawks right now, even with the delivery issues.

PAKFA has no engine troubles and there is no ECM on PAKFA.

The Mig-29ks are doing fine, the accident in Russia was pilot error. He was flying too low and could not pull up in time.

Novator or I guess Vympel will be inducted in time as has been told by our highest authorities. So, it will happen.

MRCA will happen as contract signing is one of the biggest hurdles. Then comes all the bickering and blame game over the contract and then comes the aircraft deliveries and problems associated with it.
India has what... 140 MKI? That is hardly 28 produced per year since its induction in 2002. It is more like 14. When you have squadron shortfalls in the double digits, you better start acquiring faster. France doesn't need to order Rafale faster, we have enough M2000s to fill the fleet, we actually have too many aircraft in service as we are downsizing from 500 hi-lo fighters to 300 top end fighters. The production rate of Rafale is well thought out politically and industrially. India's production is not as it does not fill its gap.

There is no Novator.

I certainly hope MRCA happens and soon whether we lose or not. I am really tired of checking the news for it year after year.
 

LETHALFORCE

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Belarus may buy outdated Su-30 fighters from Russia | Defense | RIA Novosti

Belarus may buy outdated Indian Su-30 fighters from Russia

Eighteen Su-30K fighter jets which were delivered by Russia to India in the 1990s could end up in service with the Belarusian air force, respected Russian business daily Kommersant said on Friday.

Russia and India agreed on the sale of advanced Su-30MKI fighters to the Indian air force in mid-1990s, but Moscow had not been able to deliver the aircraft until early 2000. The sides found a compromise - the first 18 fighter jets were delivered in downgraded version, Su-30K, on condition that they would be returned to Russia after being replaced with Su-30MKI.
According to Kommersant, the aircraft were formally returned to Russia's Irkut aircraft corporation, but never touched the Russian soil and ended up in Belarus.

The first 10 jets have been recently delivered to an aircraft plant in Baranovichi for a deep overhaul to the Su-30KN version, Kommersant cited a source close to Russian state arms exporter Rosoboronexport. The remaining eight are expected to arrive in November.

The source said Belarus was interested in buying the Su-30K because the country cannot afford new aircraft and the deal could be very cheap.

According to Russian experts, the current price for an outdated Su-30K after depreciation is about $10 million. An overhaul would require an additional $5 mln per plane.

"To buy a heavy fighter for $15 mln is a real bargain," Kommersant quoted Ruslan Pukhov, the head of the Russian Center for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, as saying.

Despite the certain loss from such a deal, Irkut may be forced to sell the Su-30Ks to Belarus because the Russian Defense Ministry will not spend the money on old aircraft, and other potential buyers - Syria and Sudan - are out of the picture for political reasons.
 

p2prada

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India has what... 140 MKI? That is hardly 28 produced per year since its induction in 2002. It is more like 14. When you have squadron shortfalls in the double digits, you better start acquiring faster.
The MKI production is perfect for us. The production was never ~28 since 2002, but since 2008-09. Production was as low as 10 in 2002. It was scaled up further when we upgraded to 14 and Russians opened their own production line to cater to our demands.

France doesn't need to order Rafale faster, we have enough M2000s to fill the fleet, we actually have too many aircraft in service as we are downsizing from 500 hi-lo fighters to 300 top end fighters. The production rate of Rafale is well thought out politically and industrially. India's production is not as it does not fill its gap.
That is the magic word. Downsizing. We aren't. We are doing exactly the opposite and will take time. The Americans even with their capability have squadron shortfalls even while downsizing. This is something all air forces face and not just India.

We are replacing low end fighters like Mig-21s with high end fighters like MKIs. Heck the last I heard one MKI does the work of an entire squadron of Mig-21s. So, we aren't short on capability. More numbers are coming, but looking at our enemies they are worse off than we are.

There is no Novator.
There is no PAKFA. There is no Vympel either. NeURON is fiction as well. Have heard only talk, no walk. Same with hypersonic cruise missile for Rafale. All talk.

I certainly hope MRCA happens and soon whether we lose or not. I am really tired of checking the news for it year after year.
Last report from chief said year end. This was the fastest full fledged comparative trials the world has ever witnessed. So, I am not unhappy.
 

Galaxy

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Super Sukhois to give India a generation leap

Super Sukhois to give India a generation leap


India is poised to get fifth generation aircraft sooner than expected. While an Indo-Russian programme to develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft is already under way, Russia has agreed to provide India with an advanced version of the Sukhoi-30MKI, which boasts of fifth generation capabilities and stealth features.

The Indian Air Force, which currently has over 100 Sukhoi MKIs, has placed an order with Russia for about 280-300 aircraft, which are likely to come in the form of the Super Sukhois.

This development is expected to provide India a considerable edge over Pakistan. In January 2011, China had agreed to deliver its J-20 fifth generation fighter – touted to be the world's most advanced fighter aircraft — to Pakistan.


The timeframe of the delivery of the Super Sukhois has not been specified,
but India plans to deploy four squadrons of the advanced aircraftin the northeastern sector by 2015.

The Super Sukhoi has come about after India decided to get rid of some of its outdated combat jets and replace them with superior ones. As part of that, India decided to return 18 Sukhoi-30K aircraft to Russia and replace them with the advanced Sukhoi-30MKI, which is being christened as "Super Sukhoi" that boasts of fifth generation features.


The 18 Sukhoi-30Ks were part of the first production batch.

According to a US-based Defense Update report, Russia, the manufacturer of the aircraft, has agreed to replace the aircraft by production versions of the advanced Su-30MKI (the Super Sukhoi), in a 'buyback' transaction as the Su-30K were found to have downgraded avionics as compared with the advanced Su-30MKI aircraft.


Further, the aircraft, of which 10 have already been sent back (the remaining eight by November), would be inducted into the Belarusian Air Force.


The Super Sukhoi, apart from having a new cockpit, has upgraded radars and will also be equipped with the BrahMos supersonic cruise missile.


Commenting on the decision to return the older aircraft, Air Commodore (Retd) Jasjit Singh, director, New Delhi-based Centre for Air Power Studies (CAPS), told DNA that India had been asking for the Sukhoi-30K to be replaced for sometime now and that the decision to go in for the upgraded version of the aircraft is a step in the right direction.


"The Sukhoi-30K were manufactured and delivered to India in the mid-1990s and it is an aging aircraft. The IAF may have found it to be cost-effective to send back the aircraft instead of upgrading it on par with the latest model. Besides the upgrades would have taken three-four years, which is not logical with a fleet of aircraft which has already completed half its lifespan," said Singh.


Super Sukhois to give India a generation leap - India - DNA

 

black eagle

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Super Sukhois to give India a generation leap




This development is expected to provide India a considerable edge over Pakistan. In January 2011, China had agreed to deliver its J-20 fifth generation fighter –
touted to be the world's most advanced fighter aircraft — to
Another example of great Indian journalism. I just wonder when will these guys catch up on their reading...
 

Armand2REP

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The MKI production is perfect for us. The production was never ~28 since 2002, but since 2008-09. Production was as low as 10 in 2002. It was scaled up further when we upgraded to 14 and Russians opened their own production line to cater to our demands
Russians are delivering MKI to you now?? Irkut deliveries should be over and turned over to HAL which are presently 14 per year.

That is the magic word. Downsizing. We aren't. We are doing exactly the opposite and will take time. The Americans even with their capability have squadron shortfalls even while downsizing. This is something all air forces face and not just India.
USAF has unequipped squadrons? Did you hear that from PRESSTV? Only India has a shortfall of over 200 aircraft and grows every year. Even Russia knows when they can't meet production to DOWNSIZE... not to GROW required levels.

We are replacing low end fighters like Mig-21s with high end fighters like MKIs. Heck the last I heard one MKI does the work of an entire squadron of Mig-21s. So, we aren't short on capability. More numbers are coming, but looking at our enemies they are worse off than we are.
So 1 MKI replaces 20 MiG-21? BS unless you are talking about Vietnam MiG-21s. :laugh:

You are short on capability considering the threats you face and you are far short compared to China.

There is no PAKFA. There is no Vympel either. NeURON is fiction as well. Have heard only talk, no walk. Same with hypersonic cruise missile for Rafale. All talk.
Novator is about as far along as Rafale hypersonic cruise missile... paper.

Last report from chief said year end. This was the fastest full fledged comparative trials the world has ever witnessed. So, I am not unhappy.
MMRCA started in 2001, it is now 2011. It is the slowest major aircraft tender in the history of the world.
 

Armand2REP

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India decided to return 18 Sukhoi-30K aircraft to Russia and replace them with the advanced Sukhoi-30MKI, which is being christened as "Super Sukhoi" that boasts of fifth generation features.
In January 2011, China had agreed to deliver its J-20 fifth generation fighter – touted to be the world's most advanced fighter aircraft — to
Does this guy have a clue what he is talking about?
 

Galaxy

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Full of errors. But I can't edit before posting. :lol:

How many MKI HAL is delivering per year ? Anyone knows ??

By early 2013, We will operate 40 with air variant brahmos. Rest all are speculation and nothing concrete !!
 
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