Su-30 MKI

[p2prada]

Thanks bro, composites ? how.Isn't that a part of the solid structure [don't know exactly].If then how the old aircrafts will have composite upgrades?

By removing the metal parts and replacing them with composites. This is planned to happen in 2014. MKI production will stop in 2015.

 

[ppgj]

p2p
in the interview(post #363) mr. balkrishnan talks about single crystal blade technology being made available to HAL. i think that is significant.
how much time approximately HAL/drdo will take it to absorb and use it for kaveri? any guess?

 

[ironman]

@ppgj

Did you miss this part?

Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here.

 

[ppgj]

@ppgj
Did you miss this part?

agree. but he mentions "The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time." that is why it becomes interesting. also tot of mki's is deep license which also spices up. though i am inclined to beleive in the negative, still it is a little confusing. also remember india and russia are moving to jointly develop pakfa. not just buyer-seller.

 

[p2prada]

p2p
in the interview(post #363) mr. balkrishnan talks about single crystal blade technology being made available to HAL. i think that is significant.
how much time approximately HAL/drdo will take it to absorb and use it for kaveri? any guess?

Different departments. HAL will make Al-31s while GTRE will develop Kaveri with help from Snecma. The Russian technology will not be absorbed for the development of the Kaveri. Rather, we will have to use the best options given by France.

 

[ppgj]

Different departments. HAL will make Al-31s while GTRE will develop Kaveri with help from Snecma. The Russian technology will not be absorbed for the development of the Kaveri. Rather, we will have to use the best options given by France.

agree they are different departments. but GTRE(part of drdo) and HAL have been working together for a long time. both being in public sector, they would be sharing info, knowledge with each other.
but anyway all this is dependant on the question whether russians have really given the engine technology to india(incl. single crystal blade).
as for snecma, IAF was against it? is that resolved?

 

[icecoolben]

Drdo already developed single crystal blades of kaveri, but has problems with putting it to production. May be russian expertise can be absorbed there. Kaveri is struggling because its core has not been able to handle the thermal stresses created at plasma states of fluid flow.No country in the world world at present wish to part with such sensitive technology.
since we already licence produce rd-33, think its best if we try to reverse engineer the kilminov rd-33 engines for use on kaveri.
The ej-200 engine if chosen for lca world also help as it would offer better tot that its american counter part.
The al-31f turbofans are quite larger than their counter parts. Eventually we would need to produce them locally, so its best we get as much technology by su-mki and fgfa programs.

 

[venom]

If Russians have SC blade tech WHY the hell is GRTE running be behind EADS,Boeing & Lm......?

 

[ironman]

I have a different opinion. Russian technology unfortunately not good enough as Western. If you compare the MTBO and total engine life of Russian engines with Western ones you can find it out easily..

 

[youngindian]

India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia

India will discuss the modernization of the Russian-made Su-30MKI aircraft in service with its air force during an upcoming military-technical cooperation meeting in Moscow, the country’s Defense Ministry said on Friday. The Indian Air Force currently has 105 Su-30MKIs mainly deployed at airbases close to the Chinese border.


“The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and Russia has offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul,” the ministry said in a statement. The IAF originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. India’s Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.

India previously said it was satisfied with the performance of Russian Su-30MKI fighters and has recently expressed interest in buying another 50 Su-30MKIs. The 9th meeting of the Russia-India Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation will be held on October 14-15 in Moscow and will be chaired by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his Indian counterpart A. K. Antony. The main focus of discussions during the meeting will be the extension of the existing bilateral agreement on military-technical cooperation for another 10 years, from 2011 to 2020.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia IDRW.ORG

 

[VayuSena1]

it is 229+50 remember the one that crashed ahmed?

I would like to point out something here. Though I am not aware about replacement plans in this case, under any new deal of the similar aircraft, the number of aircraft lost in attrition for the same model of aircraft are usually replaced with same quantity of aircraft. Therefore, most likely the lost aircraft would be replaced with an obvious nod from the Ministry.

As I said, this has been the trend in most air forces around the world and standard procedures. Now I cannot say what our Ministry has in its mind regarding the aircraft lost. Since target is 280 of Su-30 MKI, it is quite natural that the lost 1 aircraft would be added alongside the 50 additional fighters, making it to 51.

 

[A.V.]

sir whats the confirmation status of the 50 additional ones it seems to be in the pipeline but has any official news been circulated in the inner circles about the additional 50

 

[VayuSena1]

I would like to correct you there. It is touching 34 squadrons now courtesy the rapid induction of the Su-30 MKI. 32 was the dangerous low estimated but by the time we reach 32, the Tejas would start coming in since it is most likely that the older MiGs stationed in the southern commands would be phased out next year and the year following. It is the only logical way of replacing aircraft steadily without risking drastic fall of the numbers.

Personally I don't like the government's rather not-so-active enthusiasm in faster inductions but I can assure you that situation is not drastic. We have been much worse than this during the times of war and still have emerged victorious.

While most people commented here that quality over quantity is essential, I would like to point out that this is more possible and viable strategy from NATO perspective rather than Asian strategy. Simply because Chinese are now having both quantity and quality. I know that they have a lot of vintage aircraft similar to the MIG-21s, however they as estimated by many think-tanks and people around, would be replaced by improvised versions of J-10 and FC-1 light combat aircraft.

Therefore China would easily retain its approx. 60+squadrons of fighters even if they slow their pace of induction while in order for us to reach a target of minimum 42 squadrons, we will have to induct fighters at almost twice the current speed of induction in time. This is of course my PERSONAL OPINION therefore please don't go around saying that a government source confirmed the slow pace of work. The last thing I would want is the government after my neck.

 

[macintosh]

Sir I agree with you. Also I would like to know a plausible reason from you for a question.
The question is :

Why don't IAF induct atleast 10 more squadron of Mig-21 Bisons ???. They seem to be good for shifting pilots from training mode to real world of air combats. They are potent and cheap. They got praised for their jammers and are an essential part of IAF. We have the capability to make them in India only. Also this will de-stress ADA and help to get some good time for the TEJAS's engine. They will certainly give an edge to IAF.

 

[Sridhar]

India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia

BY : RIA Novosti

India will discuss the modernization of the Russian-made Su-30MKI aircraft in service with its air force during an upcoming military-technical cooperation meeting in Moscow, the country’s Defense Ministry said on Friday. The Indian Air Force currently has 105 Su-30MKIs mainly deployed at airbases close to the Chinese border. “The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and Russia has offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul,” the ministry said in a statement. The IAF originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. India’s Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.
India previously said it was satisfied with the performance of Russian Su-30MKI fighters and has recently expressed interest in buying another 50 Su-30MKIs. The 9th meeting of the Russia-India Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation will be held on October 14-15 in Moscow and will be chaired by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his Indian counterpart A. K. Antony. The main focus of discussions during the meeting will be the extension of the existing bilateral agreement on military-technical cooperation for another 10 years, from 2011 to 2020.
Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow. The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.


India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia IDRW.ORG

 

[A.V.]

the confirmed upgrade for the new radars are here

'Bars's chief designer Tamerlan Bekirbayev says the capability for simultaneously detecting, tracking and engaging several aerial targets with one ground target already exists on the serial 'Bars' radars. During next step of upgrading :

- The air detection range will be more, than doubled!
- The number of tracked and egaged targets will be increased 1.5-2 times (from current 20 & 8 figures).
- The mapping performance in terms of target detection range and resolution will be doubled!
- The number of tracked ground targets will be doubled too.
- Some new operation modes will be added, particularly Meteo and Active Countermeasures modes.
- Interaction with other avionic systems (ECM, EO targeting) will be expanded.
- The range of weapon use will be extended.
- Formation mission capabilities will be enhanced.

After the completing this stage of upgrade, the next step will be equipping 'Bars' radar with AESA antenna. If so, it could be the first world AESA radar with additional gimbals mechanism. Even after AESA variant go for serial production, NIIP chiefs believe PESA radars will remain a low cost solution for many customers worldwide.




posting from IGOR,s blog
Defunct Humanity: MAKS-2009 - NIIP celebration

 

[A.V.]

vladimir,
let me know the status of Knirti SAP 14, supposedly the russian equivalent of american ALQ-99 used on the EA-18 growlers. also the link mentions india may have been offered. is the russian AF using it? how does it compare with american jammer?
am posting a link here-

Ares Homepage

some new variants were displayed on maks 2009 i will dig out igors pictures and see if a pic is available of the same but reports say that systems on display included a single-pod centreline SAP 14 and a twin-pod SAP 518 EW jammer from knirti currently its under user trials as per unofficial sources i need to look for more info on this

 

[Sridhar]

FORCE October 2009
www.forceindia.net

‘Outsourcing is a Reasonably New Area for Us’
General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan

Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.

What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?

Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?

As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?

They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

Does the radar come directly from Russia?

No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?

The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?

No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?

Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.
A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?

Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?

This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?

Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.

Courtesy : Austin of keypub

 

[StealthSniper]

I find it troublesome that the GPS system comes from Israel. I don't know for sure, but do you think that if we use a western system for our GPS that USA can know where are aircraft are at all times by using their satellites. If anyone can shed more light on this subject I appreciate it.

 

[jackprince]

GPS system is based on global navigation satellite system. So naturally if a a/c or other carrying a GPS receiver and US knows the GPS code of the reciever tey can monitor the movement. Currently this is the only most reliable navigation system available to anybody, since Russian GLONASS is in disarray.

But Russia, in collaboration with India, plans to repair GLONASS network by sendinf about 18 new satellites by 2011. I guess once GLONASS becomes operational, IAF or any other Indian service will change into GLONASS from GPS. Until that happens GPS is best system available and since US is NOT the enemy, it is not a matter to worry since most others use GPS anyway.