Su-30 MKI

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K Factor

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AJSINGH,
Two seater plane tend to have lesser combat range than a single engine plane.
Why?
Simple because space for a fuel tant is lost.
Example : Internal fuel capacity
F-18E 6,530kg
F-18F 6,145kg
Err, I think you got confused while posting. Single engine plane can also be a two seater plane. :p

Also, usually 2 seater planes, IF they are not trainer aircraft tend to be in the medium to heavy class. Internal fuel capacity depends upon the design of the aircraft. Take for example Mig-29 and F-16. :wink:
 

AJSINGH

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well first when you desgin a twin seater aircraft , the fuel tanks are moved from the spine to the wings and towards the rear end of the aircraft ,it provides more space for fuel than the single seat aircraft . also internal fuel capacity is a property of specific aircraft degin . traditionally soviet russian built aircraft have more internal fuel capacity than the western counterparts
 

Dark Sorrow

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Err, I think you got confused while posting. Single engine plane can also be a two seater plane. :p

Also, usually 2 seater planes, IF they are not trainer aircraft tend to be in the medium to heavy class. Internal fuel capacity depends upon the design of the aircraft. Take for example Mig-29 and F-16. :wink:
Sorry it was a typo. I wish to say single seat plane rather than single engine plane.
 

Quickgun Murugan

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hi

i want to how will be su 30 on the enemy air space and close dog fight what will be the chance

tell me with the example of Pakistan and china

jai hind
SU30 MKI will be an elephant in the sky clearly visible in the radar and absolutely vulnerable to SAM's in enemy air-space.

Su 30's will be mostly not see any dog-fights due to its state of art avionics which can detect and kill enemy fighters long before the later can see this bird. However, in an actual dog-fight, I think it will boil down to pilot skills and training.
 

IBRIS

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IAF wants 50 more Sukhois to counter China, Pakistan

NEW DELHI: With both China and Pakistan bolstering their air combat fleets, IAF is now seeking another 50 Sukhoi-30MKI multi-role "air dominance"
fighters to cater for any contingency on both the eastern and western fronts. These 50 new Sukhois will in addition to the 230 of these twin-seater fighters already contracted from Russia in three deals worth upwards of $8.5 billion.

Having inducted 105 of the 230 Sukhois till now, IAF has already begun to base these jets in the North-East in a clear move to counter China's rapid modernisation of its armed forces. Incidentally, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has been directed to complete the manufacture of 140 of the 230 Sukhois under transfer of technology by 2015 at all costs.

India's "dissuasive deterrence" military posture against China, after all, revolves around the Sukhois as well as the 3,500km nuclear-capable Agni-III missile, which will be ready for operational deployment by 2011, and the 5,000km range Agni-V missile in the pipeline.

IAF chief Air Chief Marshal P V Naik confirmed to TOI on Thursday that his force was indeed "interested" in acquiring more Sukhois, which will be the mainstay of India's fighter fleet for the forseeable future, to further enhance its combat potential.

Bombarded by a spate of questions on the military equation vis-a-vis China on day the People's Liberation Army showcased its staggering military might to mark 60 years of communism, ACM Naik said IAF's acquisition of combat capabilities was not "country or adversary-specific". While exuding "confidence" that a repeat of the 1962 conflict was simply "not possible", the IAF chief said, "We need to develop certain capabilities which are required or will be required in the future in tune with India's aspirations."
IAF, after all, needs to project power as well as have "strategic reach" from Hormuz Strait near Persian Gulf right down to Malacca Strait, which India visualises as its primary area of geopolitical interest. In its quest to emerge as a "strategic aerospace force", IAF has embarked on a major modernisation drive, which ranges from Israeli AWACS and aerostat radars to American C-130J 'Super Hercules' aircraft.
IAF wants 50 more Sukhois to counter China, Pakistan - India - NEWS - The Times of India
 

StealthSniper

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Damn IBRIS you beat me to it lol. Finally we have more proof that we are going to get 50 new Sukhoi Su-30 MKI. I really hope we get these 50 new planes.
 

A.V.

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GUYS the order of 50 more sukhois are already old news DFI was one of the first sites on the net which confirmed this almost a month ago
the new sukhois will be of block 3 standard with upgrades in weapons,radar and other key components also unofficial sources claim it will be manufactured at irkust plant in siberia, russia
 

AJSINGH

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SU30 MKI will be an elephant in the sky clearly visible in the radar and absolutely vulnerable to SAM's in enemy air-space.

Su 30's will be mostly not see any dog-fights due to its state of art avionics which can detect and kill enemy fighters long before the later can see this bird. However, in an actual dog-fight, I think it will boil down to pilot skills and training.
any aircraft will be like a sun on SAM radar unless it happens to be raptor or to some extent JSF . what we have to note here is that MKI wont go for offensive mission unluess gorund sam systems have been destroyed . supression of nemey air defence is the first task then comes air superiority.
plus a aircraft will have advantge if it has very high service celling. that mean it out of range from enemy sam radar
 

Quickgun Murugan

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any aircraft will be like a sun on SAM radar unless it happens to be raptor or to some extent JSF . what we have to note here is that MKI wont go for offensive mission unluess gorund sam systems have been destroyed . supression of nemey air defence is the first task then comes air superiority.
plus a aircraft will have advantge if it has very high service celling. that mean it out of range from enemy sam radar
So what in your view is our front line fighter? You cant expect our cruise missiles to take all mobile SAM targets do you? No matter what precaution is taken, Su30 will always be vulnerable to SAM's because it is impossible to detect and destroy every enemy air-defence systems.
 

AJSINGH

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So what in your view is our front line fighter? You cant expect our cruise missiles to take all mobile SAM targets do you? No matter what precaution is taken, Su30 will always be vulnerable to SAM's because it is impossible to detect and destroy every enemy air-defence systems.
yes fist line of offensive will be disabling sam systems , and how will we do that .
1- crusie missile launches from within our territory .
2-MKI flying very near to the border firing a2g missile targetting SAM system
3- mobile infantry which will advance forward to destroy the sam sites
4- IA artellry units tareting the sam sites

when majority fo sam sites are destroyed then the air superiority task will be given to MKI. like close support , destruction of enemy airfields

and it is very much possible to destory the enemy sam sites because of long range cruise missile as well as JDAMS

plus in few years IAF will be getting PAK FAGA . if its stealthy enough that aircraft would be used for first offensive action
 

ppgj

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vladimir,
let me know the status of Knirti SAP 14, supposedly the russian equivalent of american ALQ-99 used on the EA-18 growlers. also the link mentions india may have been offered. is the russian AF using it? how does it compare with american jammer?
am posting a link here-

Ares Homepage
 

wild goose

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India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia

NEW DELHI, October 9 (RIA Novosti) - India will discuss the modernization of the Russian-made Su-30MKI aircraft in service with its air force during an upcoming military-technical cooperation meeting in Moscow, the country's Defense Ministry said on Friday.

The Indian Air Force currently has 105 Su-30MKIs mainly deployed at airbases close to the Chinese border.

"The aircraft, contracted in 1996, are due for overhaul shortly and Russia has offered an upgrade of the aircraft with incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul," the ministry said in a statement.

The IAF originally ordered 50 Su-30MKI aircraft from Russia in 1996 and an additional 40 planes in 2007. India's Hindustani Aeronautics (HAL) was also contracted to build 140 aircraft in India between 2003 and 2017 under a licensed production agreement.

India previously said it was satisfied with the performance of Russian Su-30MKI fighters and has recently expressed interest in buying another 50 Su-30MKIs.

The 9th meeting of the Russia-India Inter-Governmental Commission on Military-Technical Cooperation will be held on October 14-15 in Moscow and will be chaired by Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov and his Indian counterpart A. K. Antony.

The main focus of discussions during the meeting will be the extension of the existing bilateral agreement on military-technical cooperation for another 10 years, from 2011 to 2020.

Russian-Indian intergovernmental commission sessions are held annually and alternate between New Delhi and Moscow.

The current cooperation program until 2010 comprises about 200 joint projects, including the modernization of the Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) for the Indian navy, the transfer of technology for the licensed assembly of T-90 tanks in India, the production of BrahMos missiles and the purchase of Smerch MLRS by India.

India set to discuss overhaul of Su-30 fighter jets with Russia | Top Russian news and analysis online | 'RIA Novosti' newswire
 

Arun

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So guys what kinda new tech we can expect with this upgrade programe.
Also does our MKI's have the OLS tech in it? which is offered in the new Mig-35 and I came across an article in wiki that India had co-developed an awacs killer with russia named Novator K-100

Here is the link
Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But i couldn't find any mentioning of this missile in other Su-30mki related site ?
 

Arun

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yes fist line of offensive will be disabling sam systems , and how will we do that .
1- crusie missile launches from within our territory .
2-MKI flying very near to the border firing a2g missile targetting SAM system
3- mobile infantry which will advance forward to destroy the sam sites
4- IA artellry units tareting the sam sites

when majority fo sam sites are destroyed then the air superiority task will be given to MKI. like close support , destruction of enemy airfields

and it is very much possible to destory the enemy sam sites because of long range cruise missile as well as JDAMS

plus in few years IAF will be getting PAK FAGA . if its stealthy enough that aircraft would be used for first offensive action
Bro you forgot the intelligence factor about the SAM sites across the border,which is necessary for every thing you mentioned above.We cant expect that the enemy will disclose the location of their SAM sites.

By this way also we cant completely naturalize the enemy air defense,so MKi's will be some what vulnerable
 

p2prada

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Bro you forgot the intelligence factor about the SAM sites across the border,which is necessary for every thing you mentioned above.We cant expect that the enemy will disclose the location of their SAM sites.

By this way also we cant completely naturalize the enemy air defense,so MKi's will be some what vulnerable
The Pakistanis don't have any good SAMs to actually hit the IAF assets. They lack long range SAMs, quick reaction SAMs etc. Their current inventory is set for replacement with no new deliveries planned.
 

p2prada

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So guys what kinda new tech we can expect with this upgrade programe.
Also does our MKI's have the OLS tech in it? which is offered in the new Mig-35 and I came across an article in wiki that India had co-developed an awacs killer with russia named Novator K-100

Here is the link
Novator K-100 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But i couldn't find any mentioning of this missile in other Su-30mki related site ?
MKIs do have OLS(OLS-30). The upgrade consists of composites, AESA(possibly, but new PESA Irbis guaranteed), new weapons and avionics.
 

Arun

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The Pakistanis don't have any good SAMs to actually hit the IAF assets. They lack long range SAMs, quick reaction SAMs etc. Their current inventory is set for replacement with no new deliveries planned.
Well I don't think that IAF will use MKI's against pak as front line fighters ,for that they already have MIG 29,mirage and the new MMRCA ac's.This can be seen from their latest ac deployment plan.

But what about china they got respectable air defense?
 

Arun

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MKIs do have OLS(OLS-30). The upgrade consists of composites, AESA(possibly, but new PESA Irbis guaranteed), new weapons and avionics.
Thanks bro, composites ? how.Isn't that a part of the solid structure [don't know exactly].If then how the old aircrafts will have composite upgrades?
 

ironman

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Some Interesting info about MKI..

FORCE October 2009
www.forceindia.net

General Manager, Aircraft Manufacturing Division, Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, Nasik, V. Balakrishnan

Can you give us an overview of the Su-30MKI manufacturing process in Nasik?

The contract for Su-30 was first signed in 1996 with Russia. Subsequently, there were talks about license production, which is when HAL came into the picture. HAL has been in dialogue with Russia since 1998. In 2000, the Inter-Government Agreement and general contract was signed. In December 2001, the bifurcation of responsibilities between the Indian and the Russian side took place, implying that both sides decided on the documents that would be given to us, which side would do how much tooling and testing and so on. HAL also decided on the minimum number of aircraft needed to be made by it to have a cost-effective production line. Various figures were discussed and till we finally agreed on an appropriate number. Consequently, in March 2002, HAL submitted its project report to the government.


What is meant by establishing the Su-30MKI production line?

Five HAL factories were nominated for the Su-30MKI production. In Nasik, we make the airframe structure and all electrical items and various assemblies made elsewhere are brought here for final integration of the aircraft.After this, flight-testing is done here before the aircraft is given to the customer. At the Koraput HAL plant, we make the AL-31FP engines for the aircraft. In Hyderabad, HAL makes the radar and radio equipment. In Lucknow, all systems are made, which includes mechanical and electrical instruments (looms), as well as pumps and oxygen systems. The Navigational and Attack Complex, Korwa, HAL makes all navigational systems, which includes optical laser systems. Hence, the Nasik factory with the strength of about 5,500 people does the design and manufacturing. In addition, there are about 30 Russian consultants. The Nasik HAL comprises three divisions: the Aircraft Manufacturing Division (AMD), the Aircraft Overhauling Division (AOD) and Aircraft Upgrades Research and Development Centre (AURDC).

What is meant by designing Su-30MKI here?

As the aircraft is the licensed-production, we have to maintain the documentation including designs, drawing and specifications. Liaison work is also important as both sides have to agree on the exact specification of parts which are being made here.

Does the raw material for Su-30MKI come from Russia?

Yes, the kits come from Russia which includes 100 per cent raw material, casing and forgings, standard parts and bought-out ready material like bearings, connectors, switches, circuit-breakers and so on. These parts, though small are not economical enough to be made here. While in the earlier Russian aircraft, we were making nuts and bolts here, in the case of Su-30MKI, the Russians insisted that everything come from there, including readymade articles for which license has not been transferred. These include undercarriage and the ejection seats. This decision is based on cost-effective analysis and time frames. But there are still nearly 40,000 parts like brackets, panels and major structural frames, spars, longerons, wings, control surfaces and fins that are made here.

Where exactly are the Russians assisting in the project?

They come in at various stages of the project. For example, they help during the testing of the fuel pumps, radars and the final flight testing. Su-30MKI has seven profiles for system testing where the Russians are involved intimately. Painting of the aircraft done at the flight hangar is another critical area. They are also there during the final assembly of the aircraft as well in the earlier stages when sub-assemblies are manufactured. In short, the Russians are there in a supervisory capacity at each stage, for transfer of technology. This is part of the license agreement and is called ‘defence of their technology processes’. This means that it is their responsibility to ensure that all the licensed items that they have transferred to us can be produced here to the required specifications.

Does the radar come directly from Russia?

No, initially N011 radar of Su-30MKI used to come from Russia, but once the license was transferred to HAL, it is now being manufactured in Hyderabad. Like the aircraft, the manufacture of the radar is also a phased process.

Can you explain the phases in which the aircraft is being manufactured?

The whole process of the aircraft manufacture is in four phases. In phase I (2004-2005) the aircraft was manufactured and tested in Russia before being flown to India. It was again tested here in Nasik and then painted before the aircraft was handed over to the Indian Air Force. In phase II (2005-2006) 100 per cent of the kits came from Russia. In Nasik AMD, it meant the kits for the entire fuselage, wings and the pipelines. Assembling the kits here took nine months before the aircraft rolled out of the production line. Phase III of the process involved making all items from raw materials except the fuselage. The materials manufactured here included the empennage, canards, wings and the air intake. These were manufactured under Russian supervision and the process took 30 months. The fuselage that came from Russia was in three parts: F1, F2 and F3 or the front, centre and rear fuselage. These parts were assembled here. Phase IV, which has just begun, will take a total of 36 months and will involve making the entire fuselage from the Russian supplied raw material. Indian manufacturers for raw material, like Midhani, can make some of the raw material to required specifications. Present contract for the Su-30MKI aircraft mentions raw material to be delivered by Russia and we will stick to the license agreement terms. Indigenous material will be used for making spares.

As the phases become time-consuming, will this affect the aircraft production rate?

No, this will not happen. For example, phase III which we entered in March this year was actually started in 2006. We are certain to meet our commitment of giving 140 aircraft to the customer by March 2015.

What are the technical highpoints of Su-30MKI?

Su-30MKI is a 4.5 generation aircraft with a twin engine and twin cockpit. This ensures that redundancy is taken care of. It has 12 weapon stations, which is a large number. It has a state of art engine with thrust vectoring capability. This makes the aircraft highly unstable with immense manoeuvre-capabilities. It has a high fuel-carrying capability and can undertake air to air refuelling. Its fuel tank design is special and is self-sealing. This means that if a bullet hits the wing, the fuel will come out of the tank slowly, instead of gushing out as is the case in other aircraft. The aircraft engine has single crystal blades which are capable of withstanding very high temperatures. Considering that the aircraft is huge and has to operate in hot conditions, and its twin engines have the 11,500kg thrust each, the single crystal blades ensure that the thrust remains optimum. The Russians have given this technology to us for the first time. Another thing about the aircraft is the extensive use of titanium for machining, forming, welding and chemical milling. Titanium is both light and strong as compared with aluminium used in the earlier Russian aircraft. Absorption of the Titanium technology is a complex process. Most of the work on titanium is done at high temperature to stabilise the metal and this process is called isothermal forming. There is a need for special tools and jigs for the cutting, welding and machining of titanium.

Another unique feature of this aircraft manufacture is its rotables. It has sturdy locks, made of titanium, which are very complex. For example, when the undercarriage of the aircraft comes down, it is held firmly by down-locks which are manufactured here. Similarly, there are certain hydro-pneumatic valves which are complicated and are made here. The spars (members that hold heavy loads like wings) in this aircraft are huge and are complex structures to make.
A very interesting aspect of this aircraft-building is that nearly 25 per cent of the aircraft components have been outsourced by us. About 10,000 parts of the aircraft are being made by Indian companies and are being supplied to HAL Nasik. We give them the raw material and the designs, after which we inspect their products before accepting them. In a matter of speaking, we ensure quality control of the outsourced components. This helps us to concentrate on the assembly aspect of the parts here at AMD, which is a very critical process. As mentioned earlier, both we and the Russians, ensure the quality control of the manufacturing here.

Considering that the aircraft uses a lot of titanium, does this affect its stealth capabilities?


Stealth is a different issue altogether. This involves two things. First, the rays that come to the aircraft should get deflected so as not to send the signal back to the source. This is achieved by the geometry of the aircraft which ensures maximum deflection and hence stealth. The other issue is about the aircraft radar itself that should not emit unnecessary signals. Both these issues have been taken care of adequately in this aircraft.

What is the reason that in a given time frame, more aircraft can be made in Russia than at HAL?


This depends upon the number of machinery, jigs and fixtures that one has. The other aspect is about technology absorption. Considering that the Russians have been making aircraft of various kinds for so many years, their infrastructure, facilities and technology absorption processes are better than what can be achieved at HAL. For example, if the Russians are making about 1,400 aircraft and HAL is to make much lesser number in 100s, the disparity in infrastructure between the two places will be glaring. Moreover, given their experience, they have more partners to outsource work. As much as 70 per cent of their aircraft components would be outsourced in comparison to about 25 per cent that HAL is doing for the Su-30MKI. Earlier, HAL used to make 100 per cent components for the MiGs. Thus, outsourcing is a reasonably new area for us.

Which other companies are contributing components to Su-30MKI?

Thales of France has given the multi-functional display and stand-by instruments like the visual omni-range instrument landing system. The GPS in the aircraft comes from Israel. The radar warning receiver has been designed by DARE in Bangalore and is being produced by BEL. These systems are being sent to Korwa HAL from where we receive them.
 

p2prada

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Well I don't think that IAF will use MKI's against pak as front line fighters ,for that they already have MIG 29,mirage and the new MMRCA ac's.This can be seen from their latest ac deployment plan.

But what about china they got respectable air defense?
ACM made it clear the MKI is not adversary specific. MKIs will be used against all enemies, and if possible, the Naxals too.
 
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