Small arms and Light Weapons

[SwordOfDarkness]

Kya update tha

AK203 finalized, with non collapsing, but folding stock, the nice selection lever with finger hold, top and bottom rails but only rail attachment points for side ones.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I don't know from where you got the 50% more weight figure of 7.62 NATO round compared with 7.62 AK round.

The bulk production NATO round (M80) weighs 147 gr, while the AK round (M43) weighs 123 gr. Thus the M80 weighs just about 19.51% more compare to the M43.

A 7.62×51 M80 cartridge has a 147 grain bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps. This gives it a muzzle energy of 2,559 ft lbs. The 7.62×39 M43 cartridge often has a 123 grain bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of about 2,350 fps. This gives it a substantially lower muzzle energy of 1,508 ft lbs. That makes the 7.62×51 about 40 percent more powerful in terms of kinetic energy.

Will reply in points.

No, you are wrong about the figures. The figure for "rounds" that you gave is for the bullet weights - The actual weight of rounds is 392 grains for M80. Weight of 7.62x39 ranges between 150 and 180 grains.

We dont ship bullets to troops, we ship rounds.

Bullets are these :-

These are rounds:-

part 2)

Yes, 762 by 51 has more energy, and more velocity. However, it is unnecessary for most situations. Like I said, the US found that out the hard way. The long range part of it is only useful in MG and DMR roles, in todays world the only reason to use it is against troops with high availability of armour. Thats why 762x51 has been given to more troops along china border than pak border.

I would have ideally preferred we dont switch as of now, and wait to see if 6.8 becomes standard among nato, and then switch to it. It is the best compromise here, but I think our govt is playing it a bit safe to make sure we dont end up with unusable rifles in the end if this doesnt work out.

 

[ManhattanProject]

Will reply in points.

No, you are wrong about the figures. The figure for "rounds" that you gave is for the bullet weights - The actual weight of rounds is 392 grains for M80. Weight of 7.62x39 ranges between 150 and 180 grains.

We dont ship bullets to troops, we ship rounds.

Bullets are these :-

View attachment 178311


These are rounds:-


View attachment 178314


part 2)

Yes, 762 by 51 has more energy, and more velocity. However, it is unnecessary for most situations. Like I said, the US found that out the hard way. The long range part of it is only useful in MG and DMR roles, in todays world the only reason to use it is against troops with high availability of armour. Thats why 762x51 has been given to more troops along china border than pak border.

I would have ideally preferred we dont switch as of now, and wait to see if 6.8 becomes standard among nato, and then switch to it. It is the best compromise here, but I think our govt is playing it a bit safe to make sure we dont end up with unusable rifles in the end if this doesnt work out.

We could always just swap the barrels on the sigs and adopt the 6.8 round.
And yes but not the high pressure version, that will probably crack bolts.

 

[Spadex]

Now I would like to present you the real problem with our procurement system...lack of common sense.

If today Russia decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 74s and 12s. If today France decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 416s and FAMAS. If today...you get the idea.

So when we are already ready to replace all our INSAS, our MAGs, our Sterlings then why shouldn't we go for a 6.X caliber?
Why instead of doing this front line hit-to-kill, second line hit-to-whatever we simply adopt a new intermediate calibre with different barrel lengths?

Our sig can be modify to fire your "6.X" rounds it' a multi calibre system after all. Just saying

 

[Aditya Ballal]

 

[Whitecollar]

INSAS and TAR firing

 

[The Shrike]

I wonder what lessons our gernols are taking from the current Ukrainian conflict. Although both sides are wearing body armour (of various qualities), haven't seen too many battle rifles (except DMR roles) in action. Ak-74 and derivatives seem to dominate on both sides with M-4 and other 5.56 carbines also making it to some Ukrainian units. All doing a reasonably good job of killing the enemy. Engagement range in most cases is reportedly <100m, and #1 priority for soliders appears to be ammo availability.

 

[Whitecollar]

Now I would like to present you the real problem with our procurement system...lack of common sense.

If today Russia decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 74s and 12s. If today France decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 416s and FAMAS. If today...you get the idea.

So when we are already ready to replace all our INSAS, our MAGs, our Sterlings then why shouldn't we go for a 6.X caliber?
Why instead of doing this front line hit-to-kill, second line hit-to-whatever we simply adopt a new intermediate calibre with different barrel lengths?

Ahem Ahem

 

[Aditya Ballal]

Ahem Ahem
View attachment 178378

It’s most recent iteration in the ARDE Display at Defexpo-2022.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Our sig can be modify to fire your "6.X" rounds it' a multi calibre system after all. Just saying

Ok done...so we now have successfully modified our 72k (or 150k) 7.62x51mm Sig Sauer 716i to fire a 7.62x51mm based 6.X caliber round.

But what about those 700000 AK-203?
Those can't be modified to fire a 7.62x51mm based 6.X caliber round.

So now we'll develope a 7.62x39mm based 6.X calibre round.

Logistical flustercuck successfully preserved

 

[Lonewarrior]

Ahem Ahem
View attachment 178378

It's overkill
Even ordering those 7L AK-203 in 6.5 Grendel instead of 7.62x39mm would have been more than enough.

 

[Johny_Baba]

Our sig can be modify to fire your "6.X" rounds it' a multi calibre system after all. Just saying

yeah sure like our gernails and ((people with vested interests)) would let a chance to IMPOOORT annuda weapon away, besides these are same people that are relucting so much to even spend on proper optics and thinking they'll spend for newer barrels + bolts in that calibre for each rifle...

 

[The Shrike]

BTW noob question - is there any disadvantage in using long strock operating mechanism is a 7.62x51 battle rifle, especially w.r.t recoil and accuracy? TIA.

 

[Lonewarrior]

BTW noob question - is there any disadvantage in using long strock operating mechanism is a 7.62x51 battle rifle, especially w.r.t recoil and accuracy? TIA.

Short Answer : No
Long Answer : Absolutely not

 

[Love Charger]

Short Answer : No
Long Answer : Absolutely not

Please elaborate. Answer for 20 marks

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

Ahem Ahem
View attachment 178378

Velocity is criminally low, this isnt the same round as the US military one.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

I wonder what lessons our gernols are taking from the current Ukrainian conflict. Although both sides are wearing body armour (of various qualities), haven't seen too many battle rifles (except DMR roles) in action. Ak-74 and derivatives seem to dominate on both sides with M-4 and other 5.56 carbines also making it to some Ukrainian units. All doing a reasonably good job of killing the enemy. Engagement range in most cases is reportedly <100m, and #1 priority for soliders appears to be ammo availability.

I agree with this. Most members here overstate the requirement for penetrating power. Volume of fire is much more important, even now. US is switching to 6.8 for the far future, when they want a radical change of tactics to marksmanship. If it works, they will have an army of snipers. If it doesnt work, they will have just a bunch of troops sitting with no ammo.

This move could be a product of the afghanistan war too, where US troops were frequently out of range of the talibs sitting on hiltops and firing down on them. It is a tradeoff, whether it is worth or not only time will tell.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

BTW noob question - is there any disadvantage in using long strock operating mechanism is a 7.62x51 battle rifle, especially w.r.t recoil and accuracy? TIA.

As long as well made, well designed, no issues. Almost certainly it will be more accurate than the capability of the shooter.

 

[Kuldeepm952]

I have a strong inkling that adoption of AK will go something like this, rfi refloated again and again for 7.62nato rifle, failure to choose each time and then ultimately AK will sooner or later become the defacto rifle of not only backline troops but also frontline troops. If this happens you'll have a situation where section lmg ammo is different from rifles, I am not that much knowledgeable regarding ammo types but it's widely agreed that 7.62Ak might not be the best or even the 2nd or 3rd best for our infantry and the terrain they are going to fight in, and the 2nd laughable thing being that we will be indicating a rifle for which we didn't had the foresight to include a collapsible buttstock bcoz we are being penny wise but pound foolish.

I have never been for ofb or arde designed guns for IA, they are just so bad. But now even the import composition and idea is such bad that I hope MoD shove down some IDDM weapons down IA.
I don't know why but this frontline troops weapons and backline troops weapons being different sound so stupid. It's not like our frontline troops are being equipped with a gun with new fire control sights like that of US and majority of our infantry is almost as bad as a decade ago. Recent joint exercise of Marcos and para is eye opener, just see the equipment contrast, when navy is excelling you in what you are supposed to be good at and a leader, there's some problem.
I think even after 10 years we would be still seeing the same sh*t, nobody cares for poor chap infantry it seems.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Please elaborate. Answer for 20 marks

Haah...PTSD of class 12th boards...anyways

The best way to deal this question is to compare both the system.

So here we have a bolt carrier group (the reciprocating mass) of an AK. As it's the only thing moving all (almost all) the recoil is just because of this thing...

...anyone can guess from this pic why AKs have such high recoil; it's BCG is heavy and long due to the gas piston being attached to it. The defining criteria of long stroke piston.

But not let's compare this BCG with one of the most accurate DMRs out there...

SCAR 20S

Oh crap...isn't it also a long and heavy BCG!!
But it's short stroke rifle no? And also an accurate rifle?

Hence...proved