Small arms and Light Weapons

[Lonewarrior]

Its like making them Ugly is a design criteria.

Or may be those uncles in OFB and DRDO have a secret fetish fir tHiCc
Who knows

 

[Whitecollar]

Just because of this attitude...indigenous, tax payers money, why anything other...a marvelous thing was shoved down armed force's throats.

It was called something like IMSAS or INSA or something. Can't recall the name

For that matter, you need to ask yourself 2 questions:
Q1: Did INSAS that was passed earlier by design beaureu and mass produced really got made exactly accurately the way it was(quality, fit n finish, etc)?
Q2: Now that you have Kalyani as a joint production partner for JVPC along with latest CNC machines, latest machineries(that weren't available with OFB during INSAS mass prod days), do you still think they'll fck up the QA during mass prod just like they did back in the 90s?

Yes, INSAS was a large step taken back then and it definitely paved the way for our own small arms dept to go Aatmanirbhar. We got many improved variants with passage of time and change of GSQR. I highly admire Choynese going ahead and adopting their own small arms systems despite having lot of issues and ironing them out eventually rather than sucking Russia's thumb and ending up with "Ratnik upgraded" AKs.

 

[Lonewarrior]

For that matter, you need to ask yourself 2 questions:
Q1: Did INSAS that was passed earlier by design beaureu and mass produced really got made exactly accurately the way it was(quality, fit n finish, etc)?
Q2: Now that you have Kalyani as a joint production partner for JVPC along with latest CNC machines, latest machineries(that weren't available with OFB during INSAS mass prod days), do you still think they'll fck up the QA during mass prod just like they did back in the 90s?

Yes, INSAS was a large step taken back then and it definitely paved the way for our own small arms dept to go Aatmanirbhar. We got many improved variants with passage of time and change of GSQR. I highly admire Choynese going ahead and adopting their own small arms systems despite having lot of issues and ironing them out eventually rather than sucking Russia's thumb and ending up with "Ratnik upgraded" AKs.

INSAS was excellent in terms of concept but was subpar in terms of quality.
JVPC may be excellent in terms of quality (Kalyani and CNC and what not) but it's subpar in terms of concept.

And end of day both give the same results.

Let's try to understand this by another example. As of now IFV and APC were considered more of an battle taxi than an armoured vehicle by Russia and Russian influenced countries. All the while western countries were slowly increasing the level of armour...countries like Israel going so far as to use MBT level armour.
Then Ukraine war happened and we realised how a single VOG-30 can f*ck up a BMP.
Now have a look at what we are trying to procure. We are still going for "another BMP" when we definitely should need a "Lynx"

This is very much the same story for JVPC

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

IMHO the Indian Army has no intention of inducting JVPC in any meaningful numbers, though it has made the OFB/ARDE run circles with JVPC for the last 17 years in the name of trials.

The JVPC in its current avatar has evolved into a bulky weapon compared to other weapons in its PDW category like P90, MP7, MP5SD etc.

Also, if the 4.5 lac 5.56*45 mm carbine tender ultimately goes through, then where does it leave the JVPC?

 

[Spadex]

big update to everyone

Ak 203 is now a reality

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

big update to everyone

Ak 203 is now a reality

So ak203 it is in the end

 

[ManhattanProject]

Or may be those uncles in OFB and DRDO have a secret fetish fir tHiCc
Who knows

To be fair the handguards are probably heat shielded and shit, you will need a gloves with those minimalistic handguard in modern weapons. Indian army would probably reject you for a heated handguard, they just need an excuse to reject Indian shit.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Indian army would probably reject you for a heated handguard

And then I would say...

"Saar, see this saar"

 

[Whitecollar]

IMHO the Indian Army has no intention of inducting JVPC in any meaningful numbers, though it has made the OFB/ARDE run circles with JVPC for the last 17 years in the name of trials.

The JVPC in its current avatar has evolved into a bulky weapon compared to other weapons in its PDW category like P90, MP7, MP5SD etc.

Also, if the 4.5 lac 5.56*45 mm carbine tender ultimately goes through, then where does it leave the JVPC?

It it were to me, I would simply cutoff any non border force from inducting any phoren carbine or even PDW for that matter. Only the people serving at borders and special forces would get SIGs, AK 203s, Car 816 carbines, etc. If you served anywhere with any other area on Indian soil or waters, your option would be limited to adoption of
desi guns no matter what.

 

[ManhattanProject]

And then I would say...

"Saar, see this saar"
View attachment 178179

Saar vilayati hai saar, Indian weapons bola maine saar.

 

[Twinblade]

From the Defexpo page, courtesy: @jik60

Is the Top right rifle showcased by OFB, a 7.62*51 mm version of their Sig 550 chap carbine (shown just below it)?

If not can someone please identify the rifle?

Desi SiG 751 SAPR. If only they can put NATO magazine well and bolt catch open on both the rifle and carbine, it will ver well serve our purpose for general purpose rifle and carbine. Rear echelon troops can be equipped with AK203.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

If frontline troops will have Sig-716, rear echelon troops will have AK-203, then who is meant to have 5.56*45mm carbine?

Also, I feel the the whole Infantry should standardize 7.62*51 mm as primary assault rifle, given that we have already inducted Sig-716 and IWI Negev LMG at the section level. For that, the current desi options we have are OFB R2, this new Sig-751 inspired rifle and any M-72 derivative from SSD.

Otherwise, even at section level we will have a mix of Sig-716, AK-203 and 5.56 mm carbine, which might prove to be a logistical nightmare.

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

If frontline troops will have Sig-716, rear echelon troops will have AK-203, then who is meant to have 5.56*45mm carbine?

Also, I feel the the whole Infantry should have 7.62*51 mm as primary assault rifle, given that we have already inducted Sig-716 and IWI Negev LMG at the squad level. For that the current desi options we have are OFB R2, this new Sig-751 inspired rifle and any M-72 derivative from SSD.

equipping all troops with battle rifles is a bad idea, US learnt that the hard way in veitnam.

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

equipping all troops with battle rifles is a bad idea, US learnt that the hard way in veitnam.

In Vietnam, the US was operating the M-16 which had a 20 inch barrell, and was very prone to jamming. The Vietcong's AKs had a 16 inch barell, small geometric dimensions compared to M-16, less jamming. Thus it performed better in tight corners, as well as extended firefights.

In IA's situation, we have already inducted Sig-716 and Negev LMG at section level. The Sig-716's automatic version is chosen by the IA, moving away from the 3 round burst of Insas, which they have been operating for the last 20 years. Both Sig-716 and AK-203 have an overall length of around 37 inch, and weighs around 3.8 kg. While a soldier can carry more AK rounds in the battle, but the 7.62NATO round scores more in terms of effective range, as well as stopping power.

Given we are already inducting Negev as LMG in section level, thus it makes sense, to make 7.62*51mm as primary assault rifle for the whole Infantry.

 

[Lonewarrior]

Now I would like to present you the real problem with our procurement system...lack of common sense.

If today Russia decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 74s and 12s. If today France decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 416s and FAMAS. If today...you get the idea.

So when we are already ready to replace all our INSAS, our MAGs, our Sterlings then why shouldn't we go for a 6.X caliber?
Why instead of doing this front line hit-to-kill, second line hit-to-whatever we simply adopt a new intermediate calibre with different barrel lengths?

 

[ManhattanProject]

Now I would like to present you the real problem with our procurement system...lack of common sense.

If today Russia decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 74s and 12s. If today France decides to adopt a new calibre, it'll have to replace all its 416s and FAMAS. If today...you get the idea.

So when we are already ready to replace all our INSAS, our MAGs, our Sterlings then why shouldn't we go for a 6.X caliber?
Why instead of doing this front line hit-to-kill, second line hit-to-whatever we simply adopt a new intermediate calibre with different barrel lengths?

Utna sense nahi hai Army top brass me. Jane do

 

[SwordOfDarkness]

In Vietnam, the US was operating the M-16 which had a 20 inch barrell, and was very prone to jamming. The Vietcong's AKs had a 16 inch barell, small geometric dimensions compared to M-16, less jamming. Thus it performed better in tight corners, as well as extended firefights.

In IA's situation, we have already inducted Sig-716 and Negev LMG at section level. The Sig-716's automatic version is chosen by the IA, moving away from the 3 round burst of Insas, which they have been operating for the last 20 years. Both Sig-716 and AK-203 have an overall length of around 37 inch, and weighs around 3.8 kg. While a soldier can carry more AK rounds in the battle, but the 7.62NATO round scores more in terms of effective range, as well as stopping power.

Given we are already inducting Negev as LMG in section level, thus it makes sense, to make 7.62*51mm as primary assault rifle for the whole Infantry.

You misunderstand me. Do you know why the US used the M16 in veitnam?

They didnt start off with the M16. The original rifle was the M14, a7.62x51battle rifle. The US quickly realised that the 30% reduction in volume of fire was not worth the extra 200-300m of range. That is when they switched to 5.56x45, a cartridge with an idea not too dissimilar to the 7.62x39 in use by veitnam's troops.

Yes, having 7.62x51 for all does "seem" like it will solve logistics issues. But think about this - the rounds weigh 50% more, and take up 40% more space than 762.39. Meaning that we can have twice as many troops, twice as many rifles pointed at the enemy for the same supply chain. And the logistical issue simpley means that we will have to park our MG belts in appropriate amounts in the same areas as our assault rifle ammo, so they can be shipped proportionately.

 

[Love Charger]

big update to everyone

Ak 203 is now a reality

Kya update tha

 

[shuvo@y2k10]

You misunderstand me. Do you know why the US used the M16 in veitnam?

They didnt start off with the M16. The original rifle was the M14, a7.62x51battle rifle. The US quickly realised that the 30% reduction in volume of fire was not worth the extra 200-300m of range. That is when they switched to 5.56x45, a cartridge with an idea not too dissimilar to the 7.62x39 in use by veitnam's troops.

Yes, having 7.62x51 for all does "seem" like it will solve logistics issues. But think about this - the rounds weigh 50% more, and take up 40% more space than 762.39. Meaning that we can have twice as many troops, twice as many rifles pointed at the enemy for the same supply chain. And the logistical issue simpley means that we will have to park our MG belts in appropriate amounts in the same areas as our assault rifle ammo, so they can be shipped proportionately.

I don't know from where you got the 50% more weight figure of 7.62 NATO round compared with 7.62 AK round.

The bulk production NATO round (M80) weighs 147 gr, while the AK round (M43) weighs 123 gr. Thus the M80 weighs just about 19.51% more compare to the M43.

A 7.62×51 M80 cartridge has a 147 grain bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of 2,800 fps. This gives it a muzzle energy of 2,559 ft lbs. The 7.62×39 M43 cartridge often has a 123 grain bullet loaded to a muzzle velocity of about 2,350 fps. This gives it a substantially lower muzzle energy of 1,508 ft lbs. That makes the 7.62×51 about 40 percent more powerful in terms of kinetic energy.

 

[NoobWannaLearn]

Kya update tha

Tweet said ak 203 production started if it was deleted then probably means it wasn't true